Greenspoint

[MidtownCoog]

Late 60s, early 70s.

[bachanon]

i heard that if bass pro shops is putting a location at greenspoint, then the people behind katy mills could be responsible for redevelopment. i don't know how much truth there is to this. does anyone know if bass pro shops is somehow linked to that developer?

[RedScare]

Greenspoint and Woodlands are 15 miles apart. The only common consumer they compete for is between Cypresswood and the county line.

In the grand scheme of things, they really don't compete at all. And none of these malls gets enough tourists as shoppers to survive, except the Galleria and a few outlet malls. They are not unique.

[pineda]

And none of these malls gets enough tourists as shoppers to survive, except the Galleria and a few outlet malls.

Never said that the Woodlands Mall lives off the tourist dollars alone, but the fact is that the Woodlands Mall is seen as a tourist destination for people in the northwest part of Houston who may have no desire at all to drive into the Galleria area. And I would hesitate to say that the Katy Mills Mall lives off tourist dollars at all, it is always dead when I've been there, even during back-to-school shopping times.

[RedScare]

pineda, I respect your posts, so I don't want this to sound like a shot at you, but my entire family, except for 1 brother, lives in Northwest Harris County and none of them see Woodlands Mall as a tourist destination. They go to the closest one that has the stores they are looking for, usually Willowbrook. Woodlands, even though the one brother lives there, is just seen as too far a drive unless that's the only place that has it...and that is rarely the case.

[MidtownCoog]

Pretty sure Willobrook is closer to the Galleria than it is to The Woodlands.

[kjb434]

looking on the map on my wall, it looks pretty equidistant

[pineda]

Yes, for me, Willowbrook is closer than the Galleria, MTC, that's for sure. My point was that the Woodlands is marketed as a tourist destination, Willowbrook is not, Greenspoint is not, they are utilitarian at best. The Woodlands has enhancements that make it attractive to tourists, such as the Market Street and the Water Taxi, and just as important, it has the perception of being a safe place to take the family and out-of-towners. Again, if you live here already, you would not be seen as a tourist, hence you would not be seeking out the Woodlands Mall as a tourist destination. I live minutes away from the Woodlands, and yet I myself do not actively seek it out as a tourist destination. I do have teenagers that would like to make it their semi-permanent home, but that is an entirely different story. And again, good for Greenspoint, that they are trying to again take steps in the right direction (too bad that whole Magic Johnson Theatre thing didn't work out for them), but the Greenspoint area has an unsafe air to it that makes people avoid it, even in the daytime. The crime aspect must be dealt with in order to give the upcoming attractions a fair chance to succeed.

[RedScare]

According to MSN Maps:

Galleria to Willowbrook - 18.2 miles

Willowbrook to Woodlands - 18.8 miles

kjb wins.

I agree that Greenspoint in its present form will not attract a lot of shoppers. I also agree that Woodlands markets as a destination. I disagree that it makes that big a difference.

However, Woodlands does get ALL of the northern shoppers who have no mall whatsoever. If they are tourists, the Mall is getting them. But Harris County residents? Most of them make their shopping decisions on something other than the water taxi...not every time, mind you, but for routine shopping, they are going where it is quicker and shorter.

The county line is a bigger mental block than you would think (and more than it should be).

[pineda]

The county line is a bigger mental block than you would think (and more than it should be).

Red Scare, what do you mean by this statement? Are you saying that shoppers in Harris County don't (or are less willing to) shop at the Woodlands Mall because they cross over into Montgomery County?

[MidtownCoog]

my two cents - if you gotta pay taxes, might as well keep them local

[kjb434]

Thanks for the win Redscare. I was just guessing from the map on the wall in my office.

You would be surprised how much a mental block a county like are just the perception that the Woodlands is far away has on people.

For some reason I feel Katy Mills is closer to me than First Colony, and the Woodlands. Looking again on the map in my office, it all looks about the same from my house near the heights. Woodlands may be about 5 miles more, but the woodlands and First Colongy just seem further. Personally I think it has something to do with the perception of being in a Different County. Of Course Katy Mills is on the County line with more sitting in Fort Bend.

[RedScare]

There are numerous marketing studies that try to quantify how much a landmark such as freeways, thoroughfares, rivers and other things affect the shopping habits of consumers. The Harris County line, with the river running through there, would be one.

There are subconscious barriers that cause a number of people to not cross that landmark. I used to live in Spring, as well as the Woodlands. Something about that stretch between Louetta and Sawdust triggered the "this is far" feeling. I naturally looked to Willowbrook or FM 1960 when shopping, never north.

Don't know exactly why, but that's what happens. But a distaste for Mont. County itself? No. Just the mental barrier.

[kjb434]

I guess if the county line was more fluid like the one by Katy and the one by Sugarland we wouldn't notice it as much.

[pineda]

I used to live in Spring, as well as the Woodlands. Something about that stretch between Louetta and Sawdust triggered the "this is far" feeling. I naturally looked to Willowbrook or FM 1960 when shopping, never north.

You lived in the Woodlands, and yet you drove to Willowbrook or 1960?

[sevfiv]

gulfgate was crap-tacular, and meyerland was getting there...meyerland had this odd feel to it - the courtyards on the inner part, the old wyatt's cafeteria, an oshman's i think...

now i think it is just as crappy, just has stucco and palm trees now - oh and a starbucks...heh

Wasn't Gulfgate kind of ratty and crime ridden before it was taken over?

And wasn't Meyerland kind of crappy before it was taken over?

Just thinking it would happen here also.

[pineda]

crap-tacular

Thanks for this new word, I love it!

[RedScare]

You lived in the Woodlands, and yet you drove to Willowbrook or 1960?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

No, no, no. When I lived in Spring, I thought the Woodlands was too far. When I lived in the Woodlands, I thought it was too far as well, but I shopped at the mall.

One thing about the Woodlands that was cool though, is that there are very few single guys out there, so there was scads of young hotties to choose from. Sometimes I miss being Mr. Popular, so to speak. Houston has much more competition, so if you are not on your game, you may as well stay home.

[MidtownCoog]

You can also compare the "county line" to shopping eCommerce.

Sure, I can order anything on the Web, but I can support my community by buying it local.

Never understood people who buy their CDs or books online.

[bachanon]

two words: availability and convenience.

[MidtownCoog]

Did you ever stop to think it may not be available and convenient for a reason?

Keep it local!

[sevfiv]

Thanks for this new word, I love it!

i find it quite useful

[KimberlySayWhat]

I remember when I was a kid they had these neat waterfalls with metal pipes of some sort leaning into them, and walkways going across them. But I haven't been there in almost twenty years, so I have no idea if they are still there. You mentioned waterfalls - are those the ones?

Didn't they have chimes or something like that? I remember dinging sounds all throughout the mall. When I was little I loved going to Greenspoint for that alone.

[LTAWACS]

pineda, I respect your posts, so I don't want this to sound like a shot at you, but my entire family, except for 1 brother, lives in Northwest Harris County and none of them see Woodlands Mall as a tourist destination.  They go to the closest one that has the stores they are looking for, usually Willowbrook.  Woodlands, even though the one brother lives there, is just seen as too far a drive unless that's the only place that has it...and that is rarely the case.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

This is wrong on so many levels.

[Casual Observer]

This is wrong on so many levels.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Please, do explain..

[YakuzaIce]

This is wrong on so many levels.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

???

How, do you think they should go further out to the woodlands to shop?? Because that does not sound like you. Or is it just wrong because they don't live downtown? But seriously, elaborate.

[H-Town Man]

I have to throw my vote in with pineda's viewpoint. I grew up in FM 1960/Spring, and still visit the parents there pretty often. Although I am closer to both Greenspoint and Willowbrook than I am to the Woodlands, I almost always go to the Woodlands for shopping, just because it is sooo much nicer. As far as I am concerned, you never go to Greenspoint, you go to Willowbrook when you need something in a hurry, and you go to the Woodlands when you want to enjoy the experience. If this doesn't make sense to you, drive around Willowbrook or Greenspoint and then drive around the Woodlands town center, and you will see what I mean.

As far as the Woodlands as a tourist destination - well they have a convention center, a scenic waterway, and the area's best concert pavilion. The water taxis are no joke; as crazy as it sounds, I have family members who will take the older relatives out to the Woodlands to ride the water taxis, and make a day of it. They are starting to become a significant player as far as small conventions/conferences are concerned; you can see their advertisements in many statewide magazines like Texas Monthly, as well as airline magazines like Southwest Spirit.

MidtownCoog, Greenspoint might be closer to Houston than the Woodlands, but for most Houstonians, there is another mall closer than Greenspoint that they would go to first. As you said yourself, you do your shopping in Uptown. Woodlands mall has a lot more people living within 5 miles than does Greenspoint, and they are much higher income.

[RedScare]

WTF?

Greenspoint Mall, according to the management district website, has 84,780 people living within 3 MILES of it. Additionally, 75,000 people work in Greenspoint.

For comparison, the ENTIRE Woodlands has 55,000 residents. Ask someone in Alden Bridge if they live within 5 miles of the mall.

http://www.internest.com/city/thewoodlandstx.asp

Note the Woodlands density in their demographic section.

[pineda]

The Woodlands population closer to 75,000 in 2003 alone...

[SpringTX]

I think it was true up to only a few years ago that the Willowbrook Mall was the draw for the nearby neighborhoods in Northwest Harris County over The Woodlands Mall, but things have changed recently. My wife won't go to the Willowbrook Mall in the evening by herself. It's sad to say, but the residents in NW Harris now unofficially declare the Willowbrook Mall unsafe, almost as bad as the Gunspoint Mall. Now, everyone drives to The Woodlands Mall, even if it's farther than Willowbrook. The demographics around Willowbrook have changed; the demographics of The Woodlands haven't.

By the way, driving from along 1960 from I-45 to Willowbrook these days is an exercise in masochism. There are a trillion stoplights. Traffic is a complete joke, especially on weekends and holidays. And much of the development along 1960 is downright ugly and rundown.

I also know people from south and west Houston that go to The Woodlands as a tourist destination: like a day trip. Some even stay overnight in The Woodlands Resort. The Woodlands has a mega marketing budget and a unique marketing identity (in reality, its just a jumble of neighborhoods no different from the ones around it) that makes it seem like some sort of Disney-esuqe wonderland. The new boat ride and skating rink are part of that image. Some people joke that all The Woodlands needs now is a monorail.

Gunspoint is a little more than 15 miles from The Woodlands - according to Mapquest it's 18.5 miles, although it "feels" farther. I do agree that a revitalized Gunspoint Mall could drain a little revenue from The Woodlands because of its proximity, but I think it would only be minor, and it wouldn't affect the overall health of The Woodlands Mall, which is right now clobbering to death every other mall east of Katy Mills and north of the Galleria.

Honestly, I'm skeptical about a Gunspoint Mall turnaround. Even though there is a strong lunchtime office worker crowd, the residential picture for miles around Gunspoint is truly grim indeed. Unless they lift up the Gunspoint Mall with helicopters and drop it down somewhere near Conroe, it's going to suffer from crime and that's going to kill the appeal for the middle-class shopper.