Average Three-Hour Commute Coming to Houston

[houstonmacbro]

I always wondered, why not stack freeways? When space to build out runs dry, build up!

Imagine 290 being a double decked freeway, with the upper freeway being for longer, further commutes (such as 1960 to 8 to 610) and the lower freeway being for shorter trips (basically like it is now). The expense would be greater, but it would work.

Hopefully one day all you'll have to do is get in your vehicle, punch in your destination and the car takes you. With a computer controlled navigation system that allow all the cars to "talk" to each other therefore providing a high speed transit, 100% efficiency, with better route planning and no human error. Could be reality some day. Would be nice.

That would be cool. I like all those air-ways of the future in movies like Metropolis and Fifth Element. Of course, flying cars would have to be invented too.

But seriously, I want some super high-speed highways like 100+ mph to get from downtown to FM 1960 in 5 minutes or less.

We need a Houston-bahn!

[TheNiche]

I always wondered, why not stack freeways? When space to build out runs dry, build up!

Imagine 290 being a double decked freeway, with the upper freeway being for longer, further commutes (such as 1960 to 8 to 610) and the lower freeway being for shorter trips (basically like it is now). The expense would be greater, but it would work.

Unless there are significant technological advances, stacked freeways are just a matter of time, especially for urban highways. However, there gets to be a point where the capacity of major thoroughfares become the limiting factor. That's already getting to be true in many parts of the city, both urban and suburban. The major thoroughfares can often be upgraded in suburban areas, however urban areas are very constrained in many places.

[editor]

Unless there are significant technological advances, stacked freeways are just a matter of time, especially for urban highways. However, there gets to be a point where the capacity of major thoroughfares become the limiting factor. That's already getting to be true in many parts of the city, both urban and suburban. The major thoroughfares can often be upgraded in suburban areas, however urban areas are very constrained in many places.

I've seen stacked freeways in Austin, and on bridges (eastbound lanes on top, westbound on the bottom, for example). Has anyone seen this anywhere else lately? I remember New York had a few when I was a kid, but they were eventually torn down. Are there any remaining outside of Austin?

[RedScare]

I've seen stacked freeways in Austin, and on bridges (eastbound lanes on top, westbound on the bottom, for example). Has anyone seen this anywhere else lately? I remember New York had a few when I was a kid, but they were eventually torn down. Are there any remaining outside of Austin?

Oakland has some that famously collapsed during the 1989 earthquake. The only ones I am aware of in Texas are the Austin I-35 stack.

[houstonmacbro]

Oakland has some that famously collapsed during the 1989 earthquake. The only ones I am aware of in Texas are the Austin I-35 stack.

I believe parts of NYC JFK (expressway?) was double-stacked, but I could be wrong. Going on foggy memories of visiting friends in NYC in the 80s.

[TheNiche]

Are there any remaining outside of Austin?

San Antonio has a stacked section along I-10, west of downtown.

[Subdude]

I always wondered, why not stack freeways? When space to build out runs dry, build up!

Imagine 290 being a double decked freeway, with the upper freeway being for longer, further commutes (such as 1960 to 8 to 610) and the lower freeway being for shorter trips (basically like it is now). The expense would be greater, but it would work.

Hopefully one day all you'll have to do is get in your vehicle, punch in your destination and the car takes you. With a computer controlled navigation system that allow all the cars to "talk" to each other therefore providing a high speed transit, 100% efficiency, with better route planning and no human error. Could be reality some day. Would be nice.

I would imagine the cost of stacking would be prohibitive in most cases.

[westguy76]

The Greater Houston Partnership's Transit Planning Committee conducted a survey that basically stated we'd be facing an average three-hour commute within the next 26 years due to unmitigated growth in and around "rural" areas, especially the Grand Parkway corridor.

http://blogs.houstonpress.com/hairballs/20...ng_crossley.php

Great.

Then again, I guess that's the tradeoff for wanting a cheaply-constructed home in an area with marginally good schools.

I live in Cinco Ranch, work in Westchase (Beltway 8 and Westheimer) I live in a well-constructed home with excellent schools. My commute is 25 minutes at it's worse (if I wait until close to 8:00 to leave.) You do not know me so stop pretending you do

Ignorance is bliss I guess.

Just as it is easy to spew out baseless assertions from a point of ignorance.

I call BS on this article.

[Houston19514]

I would imagine the cost of stacking would be prohibitive in most cases.

I don't think so. But, in any case, more prohibitive for their use here is the resoundingly negative reaction the idea has received when it's been proposed (eg West Loop, Southwest Freeway)

[TheNiche]

I don't think so. But, in any case, more prohibitive for their use here is the resoundingly negative reaction the idea has received when it's been proposed (eg West Loop, Southwest Freeway)

...which is code-speak for that there can't be anybody making >$250,000 living within a quarter mile of a candidate freeway for stacking. If there is, then don't bother even proposing it because they'll only hire a lawyer to delay the project while they systematically bribe the politicians.

[editor]

I always wondered, why not stack freeways? When space to build out runs dry, build up!

Dubai is now opening its first double-decker highways.

The Dh605 million project will ease traffic congestion on Doha Street and ensure smooth traffic to new developments including the Burj Dubai, Dubai International Financial Centre (DIFC) and the Dubai Mall.

The road will also provide an important link between Shaikh Zayed Road, Jumeirah and the Al Khail Road and Business Bay Bridge.

It is a flyover being built over Doha Street and consists of three lanes towards Jumeirah and five lanes in the direction of the Business Bay Crossing and Al Khail Road.

Source: http://www.gulfnews.com/nation/Traffic_and...t/10305345.html

Hopefully one day all you'll have to do is get in your vehicle, punch in your destination and the car takes you. With a computer controlled navigation system that allow all the cars to "talk" to each other therefore providing a high speed transit, 100% efficiency, with better route planning and no human error. Could be reality some day. Would be nice.

Done. In 1975. In West (By God) Virginia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morgantown_Pe...l_Rapid_Transit

The little yellow boxes are the Personal Rapid Transit vehicles.

[Geoff8201]

Done. In 1975. In West (By God) Virginia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morgantown_Pe...l_Rapid_Transit

The little yellow boxes are the Personal Rapid Transit vehicles.

Interesting. Are the destinations pretty broad, or are they limited? For personal transportation vehicles however, getting us around locally on a daily basis, I was thinking of something more like the cars we saw in Minority Report... or iRobot, or Demolition Man.

None-the-less, since they already had the rough basis of what I'm picturing back in 1975, Seems like as far as our local transportation goes, we're really falling behind. Where the hell are our flying cars?!?

[JLWM8609]

San Antonio has a stacked section along I-10, west of downtown.

I thought about mentioning the Gulf Freeway between Downtown and Elgin/Lockwood as being double decked, but I don't know if it is technically one. On the double decked freeways in San Antonio and Austin, the upper and lower sections are designated as the same highway. In the case of the Gulf Freeway, only the lower section is I-45, the upper section is SH35, as evidenced by a sign at Jefferson and Dowling.

[totheskies]

The closest thing we have to an "actual stack" is the upper and lower sections of 59 through downtown. The 45 area seems more like elevated feeders into downtown and UofH.

Edited April 28, 2009 by totheskies

[JLWM8609]

The closest thing we have to an "actual stack" is the upper and lower sections of 59 through downtown. The 45 area seems more like elevated feeders into downtown and UofH.

I beg to differ. The elevated SH 35 that parallels I-45 has 3 wide lanes in each direction and a speed limit of 60 mph. That constitutes a freeway to me. If they were truly elevated feeders, they'd likely have no shoulders, narrower lanes, a lower speed limit of 40-55 (as I've yet to see a feeder road in Texas with a speed limit higher than 55), and likely sidewalks. The fact that it uses the old "loading and unloading platforms" originally constructed in 1948 makes it a true freeway. Maybe not a true double decker since the lower deck and upper deck are two completely different highways. I suppose we can call it a dual ROW, similar to 288/59 just south of downtown and 45/10 just north of downtown.

59 through downtown may appear to be a double decker highway with upper and lower sections, but it's not. Those upper sections are not mainlanes, but are simply part of an interchange, and are 1 lane ramps to and from I-45.

[TxDave]

Instead of higher and wider freeways, how about developing more transportation alternatives? Or, how many area jobs could be decentralized to be located closer to outlying population centers? These are just a couple of alternative ideas to help reduce gridlock, but of course there are many more - creative thinking will be necessary to address this problem.

[Houston19514]

Instead of higher and wider freeways, how about developing more transportation alternatives? Or, how many area jobs could be decentralized to be located closer to outlying population centers? These are just a couple of alternative ideas to help reduce gridlock, but of course there are many more - creative thinking will be necessary to address this problem.

Decentralizing jobs.... now there's a great, creative idea.

We could have a concentration of jobs near Westheimer and the West Loop, and another, say, near I-45 and the North Belt. Another further north, let's just say in The Woodlands. Then we could put another concentration further west, along I-10/Beltway; I-10 Hwy 6. Maybe another at Westheimer and the Beltway. Oh, and we could put a concentration of medical jobs somewhere south of downtown.... maybe near Hermann Park. Then let's get really crazy and have a concentration of industrial jobs somewhere; I'm thinking maybe east of downtown...

[totheskies]

Instead of higher and wider freeways, how about developing more transportation alternatives? Or, how many area jobs could be decentralized to be located closer to outlying population centers? These are just a couple of alternative ideas to help reduce gridlock, but of course there are many more - creative thinking will be necessary to address this problem.

That's what the MetroRail expansion and commuter rail plans are for, but we still need to think about stacking our major freeways. 290 (between 610 and the Beltway) has more than enough traffic to constitute a true stack, and I'd argue the same for I-45 in both directions from downtown. In each case, TxDOT is very constricted by land use, so widening out the lanes to 16 or more (like what has been done with I-10 and 59) is not a feasible option. Once we get out of the Recession-era dip, traffic is going to be HORRENDOUS in these corridors again.

[TheNiche]

That's what the MetroRail expansion and commuter rail plans are for, but we still need to think about stacking our major freeways. 290 (between 610 and the Beltway) has more than enough traffic to constitute a true stack, and I'd argue the same for I-45 in both directions from downtown. In each case, TxDOT is very constricted by land use, so widening out the lanes to 16 or more (like what has been done with I-10 and 59) is not a feasible option. Once we get out of the Recession-era dip, traffic is going to be HORRENDOUS in these corridors again.

Granted there are a couple of places where stacking is necessary on US 290 and I-45, but I think that the obvious one is the freeway loop around downtown. It's chronically congested every day, is obsolete in terms of design, and creates bottlenecks in several places.

I really wish that they wouldn't have built the US 59 / I-10 interchange the way they did. It makes sense right now, at this particular moment in time, but I can't imagine how future capacity increases on I-10 or US 59 could be accommodated except with stacked freeways. And that interchange can't handle them.

[Mr. Chenevert]

Done. In 1975. In West (By God) Virginia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morgantown_Pe...l_Rapid_Transit

The little yellow boxes are the Personal Rapid Transit vehicles.

Awesome... WVU representin'...

I attending WVU and rode the PRT for many years between classes... if you have any questions about how it worked, let me know.

Essentially, there are five stations.

Beechnut - serves the primary downtown campus

Walnut - serves the downtown Morgantown area (aka Bars)

Evansdale - serves the Engineering buildings

Towers - Serves the Towers dorms and new recreation center

Medical Center - Serves the football stadium and hospitals.

Google actually shows the locations of the PRT stations. I have highlighted them with the station names below.

The entire system is automated with no physical driver of each PRT car, or live attendant at the stations. Users walk to the station, select which of the other 4 stations they want to go, and proceed to a covered waiting area. There are multiple gates (usually 4) at each station to serve high demand times like between classed and during special events (football games). They key is that the cars go directly to the next station. They do not make a scheduled loop. So if demand is high between two stations, the entire system can adjust and bring cars to that area. Each car holds between 10-15 people. 8 seated, 7 standing. The car rides on rubber tires, so the ride is very smooth. The track is heated so that snow and ice do not affect performance during severe weather.

(Interestingly, the high cost of heating the track is ultimately why this prototype system was not expanded to other cities... although I do not believe Houston would need a temperature controlled track...)

The system is amazing and I could not imagine getting around WVU without it. Traffic in Morgantown is a nightmare (as it is in many college towns) and buses were useless as they would get stuck in the same traffic. The PRT would get you between classes in less than 15 minutes.

[Mr. Chenevert]

Just for kicks, I've highlighted where the track goes.

[metaltim]

I don't know if this would work, seems it would be worth a shot though, and would take little effort to execute, and little effort to return to how it is now if it didn't work.

But I think 290 has too many entrance/exit ramps.

There are about 8 I think from BW8 to 610, about 1 a mile.

I say block off half the entrance ramps, maybe even 2 out of every 3. It seems to me it would reduce merging, which in turn would reduce traffic. The feeders would build up some, but that's fine, feeders are supposed to be slower than mainlanes. At most you'd have to go one extra block before being able to get on the mains.

The other thing, currently the entrance and exit ramps have the traffic merge on the mainlanes (entrance ramp is before exit), if they switched them and had it merge on the feeder (exit ramp is before entrance), that again would help a lot, but that involves reconfiguring the ramps.

Any thoughts on the idea of closing half the entrances?

It's a case in point at spring cypress and 249. There is an entrance to 249 right before S.Cypress. All it does is clash with the thousands of people getting off (5pm rush hour). You have cars coming on and cars getting off, and they all have to swap sides with each other.

If they just closed that entrance, there would be no merging, just people getting off.

Whoever needs to get on 249, just stay on feeder and go through the light. The freeway ends after S.Cyp. anyway.. which is the main reason I think the entrance ramp is stupid. It causes hella traffic, so a small amount of people can get on 249 to skip one light.

Edited June 3, 2009 by metaltim

[lockmat]

Unless there are significant technological advances, stacked freeways are just a matter of time, especially for urban highways. However, there gets to be a point where the capacity of major thoroughfares become the limiting factor. That's already getting to be true in many parts of the city, both urban and suburban. The major thoroughfares can often be upgraded in suburban areas, however urban areas are very constrained in many places.

I could imagine how horrible intersections at exits would be. Double the traffic, oi!

[kylejack]

In 26 years the average person will not commute imho

[TheNiche]

In 26 years the average person will not commute imho

The majority of employed persons do not work in an office environment, but instead work service sector or blue collar jobs. These are difficult to set up for telecommuting.

It's a common mistake, though. College-educated people confuse "the average person" with average people of their demographic cohort, which is often anything but average. If you want to understand what average people do and think, read the Chron.com forums.

[totheskies]

The majority of employed persons do not work in an office environment, but instead work service sector or blue collar jobs. These are difficult to set up for telecommuting.

It's a common mistake, though. College-educated people confuse "the average person" with average people of their demographic cohort, which is often anything but average. If you want to understand what average people do and think, read the Chron.com forums.

A "majority" that has been decreasing by the day... (Recession )

Granted for some jobs it's going to be impossible to live "near your workplace". If you work at a sewer treatment plant, it's pretty obvious that you won't be able to live at or very near the plant. It's also an increased probability that you'll own a car to get you to work. But there are always exceptions. I rode the 30 Clinton to work everyday when I first moved here, and it was fascinating to see how large and magnificent the industrial sector is here.

As a Houstonian, I understand that commuting is going to be inevitable for most people here. The city is S-P-R-E-A-D O-U-T and there's not much we can do about that now. What's important to us for the future is to strengthen the connections that we already have, ease and work for more efficient car traffic flow, LEAD the NATION in decreasing our dependence on oil and converting to green energy sources, and expand our entire transit system from roads, to busses to rail.