GreenStreet: Mixed-Use Development At 1201 Fannin St.

[musicman]

sorry for bad photo but this is the VIP dining area in the house of blues.

[LTAWACS]

Was there anyone else there?

[musicman]

Was there anyone else there?

there were a few in the VIP bar area but it was darker and the phone pics didn't come out.

[dalparadise]

If HP had about 10 times the retail space and some air conditioning, it would be a run-of-the-mill mall.

If its storefronts faced the street, it would be a curious collection of lackluster shops that make a downtown shopping district.

If its tenant list were interesting enough (except for HOB and Lucky Strike-those are great, but perhaps not enough to sustain it) it would be a destination.

If it were connected to residential or better positioned near a critical mass of residential (no, a few Midtown bargain hunters shopping for high school apparel isn't enough) and gave that population a public square -- not just an un-air-conditioned mall (this claustrophobic tin can is going to be miserable in summertime) it might form the core of a real urban neighborhood.

If its architecture reflected local materials, or some hint at a Houston or Texas regionalism, it might inspire developers around it to continue its mission with complementary retail and restaurant developments of their own.

As it is, HP is none of these things and doesn't appear to be in this for the long haul. HOB seems cool, though for "happy hour" I counted five people behind the bar, serving seven customers this evening. Granted, it was Monday, but someone needs to adjust staffing levels or their employee costs are going to run them out of business. And why stick on a crappy mall to this thing? It would have been fine as a stand-alone without the Lidz and the handful of restaurants we already have.

I'm a big Houston booster and try to look on the bright side in cases like this, but HP sucks.

[RedScare]

If HP had about 10 times the retail space and some air conditioning, it would be a run-of-the-mill mall.

If its storefronts faced the street, it would be a curious collection of lackluster shops that make a downtown shopping district.

If its tenant list were interesting enough (except for HOB and Lucky Strike-those are great, but perhaps not enough to sustain it) it would be a destination.

If it were connected to residential or better positioned near a critical mass of residential (no, a few Midtown bargain hunters shopping for high school apparel isn't enough) and gave that population a public square -- not just an un-air-conditioned mall (this claustrophobic tin can is going to be miserable in summertime) it might form the core of a real urban neighborhood.

If its architecture reflected local materials, or some hint at a Houston or Texas regionalism, it might inspire developers around it to continue its mission with complementary retail and restaurant developments of their own.

As it is, HP is none of these things and doesn't appear to be in this for the long haul. HOB seems cool, though for "happy hour" I counted five people behind the bar, serving seven customers this evening. Granted, it was Monday, but someone needs to adjust staffing levels or their employee costs are going to run them out of business. And why stick on a crappy mall to this thing? It would have been fine as a stand-alone without the Lidz and the handful of restaurants we already have.

I'm a big Houston booster and try to look on the bright side in cases like this, but HP sucks.

I think you created a fantasy in your mind that no developer could build. It is no wonder that you are unimpressed with what was actually built.

[roadrunner]

If HP had about 10 times the retail space and some air conditioning, it would be a run-of-the-mill mall.

If its storefronts faced the street, it would be a curious collection of lackluster shops that make a downtown shopping district.

If its tenant list were interesting enough (except for HOB and Lucky Strike-those are great, but perhaps not enough to sustain it) it would be a destination.

If it were connected to residential or better positioned near a critical mass of residential (no, a few Midtown bargain hunters shopping for high school apparel isn't enough) and gave that population a public square -- not just an un-air-conditioned mall (this claustrophobic tin can is going to be miserable in summertime) it might form the core of a real urban neighborhood.

If its architecture reflected local materials, or some hint at a Houston or Texas regionalism, it might inspire developers around it to continue its mission with complementary retail and restaurant developments of their own.

As it is, HP is none of these things and doesn't appear to be in this for the long haul. HOB seems cool, though for "happy hour" I counted five people behind the bar, serving seven customers this evening. Granted, it was Monday, but someone needs to adjust staffing levels or their employee costs are going to run them out of business. And why stick on a crappy mall to this thing? It would have been fine as a stand-alone without the Lidz and the handful of restaurants we already have.

I'm a big Houston booster and try to look on the bright side in cases like this, but HP sucks.

Unfortunately, I agree with this. If HP fails, which I think is definitely a possibility after seeing the finished product, it would be because the developers played it too safe. It tries to be all of the things above, but it comes short on all accounts.

[LTAWACS]

This is not going well. I wonder how long it can last before it is forced to closed down for good. I say... 3 months.

[tertiary77u]

sorry for bad photo but this is the VIP dining area in the house of blues.

Wow...pretty nice for the House of Blues.

[TheNiche]

This is not going well. I wonder how long it can last before it is forced to closed down for good. I say... 3 months.

That's not how retail centers work. They don't close down. Stores within them do.

That isn't to say that retailers might end up hurting for business, be forced to renegotiate their leases, and cause the owner of the retail center to be foreclosed on, but the retail center itself stays open. And were it not for news coverage or tipsters on Swamplot, we'd probably never realize it if it did get foreclosed on.

[TheNiche]

If it were connected to residential or better positioned near a critical mass of residential (no, a few Midtown bargain hunters shopping for high school apparel isn't enough) and gave that population a public square

A few hundred residents nearby cannot even sustain a strip center by themselves. Houston Pavilions isn't neighborhood-oriented convenience retail, though, it is destination retail.

If its architecture reflected local materials, or some hint at a Houston or Texas regionalism, it might inspire developers around it to continue its mission with complementary retail and restaurant developments of their own.

What, you wanted the thing to be built from oak and pine? Chinese tallow?

Help me out, here...

[LTAWACS]

A few hundred residents nearby cannot even sustain a strip center by themselves. Houston Pavilions isn't neighborhood-oriented convenience retail, though, it is destination retail.

What, you wanted the thing to be built from oak and pine? Chinese tallow?

Help me out, here...

Perhaps he means to say we should put a big 5-point star on one side of the building. You know... next to a cactus with some drunk armadillo leaning on it.

Maybe if we put a huge pair of cowboy boots on the roof. Or a guitar. Or better yet, a big giant saxophone!

[crunchtastic]

Houston Pavilions isn't neighborhood-oriented convenience retail, though, it is destination retail.

It wants to be destination retail, but no matter how many young women buy their bubble-hem dresses at Forever 21, the retail tenants in HP still suck. I forget who said it earlier in the thread, but aside from the restaurants, it's about as appealing as airport concourse shopping. I wish it well, but it needs some more compelling tenants.

[TheNiche]

It wants to be destination retail, but no matter how many young women buy their bubble-hem dresses at Forever 21, the retail tenants in HP still suck. I forget who said it earlier in the thread, but aside from the restaurants, it's about as appealing as airport concourse shopping. I wish it well, but it needs some more compelling tenants.

Yeah, and that makes sense. It reflects their built-in customer base of office workers and business travelers.

But my point remains: a few hundred residents nearby wouldn't make the slightest difference.

[Jax]

I think we need to wait until HP is fully leased (or closer to being fully leased) before making the call that the tenants suck. It seemed when I was there that only maybe 10% of the retail space was occupied. Anybody got any numbers?

[HtownWxBoy]

I think we need to wait until HP is fully leased (or closer to being fully leased) before making the call that the tenants suck. It seemed when I was there that only maybe 10% of the retail space was occupied. Anybody got any numbers?

Seriously... most of it is not even open yet... good lord give it some time.

[slfunk]

I wouldn't be making any judgement calls on the tenants or success of any project until we get out of this slump. We have been watching a few VERY popular restuarants up here in the uptown area of Dallas taking a big hit. We have been watching some of our clients canceling plans in other parts of the country/internationally for their projects or parts of their project. In Raleigh, NC there are couple of high rises that just stopped construction with the superstructure several floors up, same in Las Vegas and Miami. We have one here in Dallas called the Stoneleigh. Be glad this project whether there is 10 percent or more retail. It got going before the downtown, and when we get back to growing with the HOB being one of the main anchors, this development will be rocking and rolling!

Edited November 18, 2008 by slfunk

[fewellman]

Seriously... most of it is not even open yet... good lord give it some time.

No kidding! I went down there the other day and i saw huge potential, wait until the whole thing is leased out before saying it sucks. I don't know why every body in this forum is so negative all the time.

[TexasVines]

No kidding! I went down there the other day and i saw huge potential, wait until the whole thing is leased out before saying it sucks. I don't know why every body in this forum is so negative all the time.

sometimes being realistic can be taken as negative when it is not.....usually big projects like this are fully or nearly fully leased before completion and all the stores open at almost the exact same time especially with the holiday season coming

second I think it has been proven time and again in cities the world over that "just a bunch of shops and restaurants" clustered in any form or fashion alone is not a driver of business for that cluster

I have not been to HP yet, but I see nothing so far that makes me think of it as anything different than The Park Shops or even Bayou Place or really any other mall or collection of stores or entertainment and stores in Houston

I think most people were excited by the concept of office, residential, and retail all in the same space.....when the office component shrank and the residential went away completely I think most see it as I do as just another collection of stores, restaurants, and some entertainment

I think many may wonder as I do what will DRIVE business to this location.....so far after it has opened many including several who have been there still wonder about that.....and often when a large new development like this has trouble filling all the spaces and or getting the stores opened in a timely fashion it rightly makes people question what will DRIVE the business to this location

I also do grow tired of people shooting for the "upscale" when again I think it has been shown that "upscale" offerings in random location is not a driver of business....upscale locations IMO end up all in one location because the drivers of the upscale business exist in a location near there....I also feel that HoB may well be short lived because of the trendiness of the whole concept and others like it....and that is a bad thing for a development to try and hang their hat on

I wish HP no ill will....I am not the biggest pusher of "mixed use" but I think in this case dropping most of the "mix" was a big mistake....I also think trying to ignore parking issues in Houston of all places is a big mistake and that includes offering expensive pay parking as an option

I hope HP does very well....but I have concerns that it will not do nearly as well as planned and I think it has to do with dropping he vision that made it such a discussion point on forums like these in the first place....can I see why some of the "mix" was dropped.....yes from a short term perspective.....but things like HP should not be built with the short in mind....unless you like to lose money in the short term and possibly much more in the longer term

I wish it te best....I will visit one day....I still happen to like regular malls as well....but that is all I really see HP as now....a mall....downtown

[RedScare]

second I think it has been proven time and again in cities the world over that "just a bunch of shops and restaurants" clustered in any form or fashion alone is not a driver of business for that cluster

Actually, it has been proven the world over that clusters of retail or restaurants DO drive business. What do you think the Galleria and the surrounding Uptown area is? Rodeo Drive? Chicago's Miracle Mile? Rice Village? Shopping malls themselves?

As for most people being excited about "mixed use", I would change that to most people on HAIF, a group easily excited by New Urbanist buzzwords, but as Niche noted, a couple of hundred resident plopped in the middle of this development would not make a bit of difference. As it is, there numerous apartments, condos and hotels surrounding HP...not enough, perhaps, but certainly a lot more than 120 apartments originally planned at HP.

[TexasVines]

Actually, it has been proven the world over that clusters of retail or restaurants DO drive business. What do you think the Galleria and the surrounding Uptown area is? Rodeo Drive? Chicago's Miracle Mile? Rice Village? Shopping malls themselves?

As for most people being excited about "mixed use", I would change that to most people on HAIF, a group easily excited by New Urbanist buzzwords, but as Niche noted, a couple of hundred resident plopped in the middle of this development would not make a bit of difference. As it is, there numerous apartments, condos and hotels surrounding HP...not enough, perhaps, but certainly a lot more than 120 apartments originally planned at HP.

all of the places you mentioned came to exist AFTER the actual people were living around that area......what was first Briargrove and Tanglewood or the Galleria....I don't know 100% for sure, but I am almost sure it was the subdivisions

what was first Beverly Hills or Rodeo Drive

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beverly_Hills

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rodeo_Drive

I don't think wiki is the greatest source, but it looks like Berverly Hills was around long before the 70s which is when wiki say Rodeo really went upscale

was West U there first and Rice or was Rice Village there first

West U 1917

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/West_University_Place

Rice Village 1930s

http://www.ricevillageonline.com/

Tanglewood 1950s

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tanglewood,_Houston,_Texas

Galleria 1970-1971 (Happy Birthday Galleria! two days late)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Houston_Galleria

I am not saying over time that the Galeria and other things like it have not driven future development.....but I am saying the shoppers to support them existed before they were developed which is why they had initial success

and I agree 120 residences would have not made or broke the mall....but just as in the examples you cited like things cluster....so aiding that cluster with your own residences would have been a better start

Edited November 18, 2008 by TexasVines

[RedScare]

You changed the argument, but whatever works for you.

[TheNiche]

You changed the argument, but whatever works for you.

Yeah, he does that a lot.

[GovernorAggie]

Unfortunately, I agree with this. If HP fails, which I think is definitely a possibility after seeing the finished product, it would be because the developers played it too safe. It tries to be all of the things above, but it comes short on all accounts.

I disagree that this is the finished product. It's still got a ways to go. Even when all the known tenants open, it will have 40% of space left to lease. I see that as a ton of possibility for approximately 120,000 sf of retail that's available. In fact, it would not surprise me that HP would be on a lot of retailers' radars after this economy hopefully straightens out. And if it straightens out round about the same time that 2010 Census numbers come out, we could be in for a construction frenzy in HP, the rest of downtown, and adjacent areas that could rival some of the go-go days of the past.

[TexasVines]

not a change of argument at all.... said HP will not drive business to itself just as a collection of shops and that no collection of retail at high or low end has been the driver for its own business

it is JUST like Victory in Dallas.....build an arena, one hotel, and a bunch of high end retail and restaurants and then watch no one come....because there are hundreds of other options and just a collection of retail and restaurants planted somewhere does not draw people on its own....it needs to have an existing base of customers to draw to it to have success.....and even though downtown is large and full of people there are already tons of other options like Park Shops and street level stores and restaurants

you listed a bunch of places that came to exist after an area had become full of residents and affluent.....this is not currently the area around HP

all the examples you listed and I provided links for came to exist a decade or more after the customers were already in the area

[TheNiche]

I disagree that this is the finished product. It's still got a ways to go. Even when all the known tenants open, it will have 40% of space left to lease. I see that as a ton of possibility for approximately 120,000 sf of retail that's available. In fact, it would not surprise me that HP would be on a lot of retailers' radars after this economy hopefully straightens out. And if it straightens out round about the same time that 2010 Census numbers come out, we could be in for a construction frenzy in HP, the rest of downtown, and adjacent areas that could rival some of the go-go days of the past.

This really is a distinct possibility. Even major retailers aren't as sophisticated as you might think, and the third-party demographics that they're using don't account for a lot of growth that I know has already occurred around downtown. And to the extent that growth is accounted for, it basically assumes that existing households only mature and that new households are similar to existing households. I can think of at least three zip codes that are going to look on paper like they transformed overnight.

[GovernorAggie]

This really is a distinct possibility. Even major retailers aren't as sophisticated as you might think, and the third-party demographics that they're using don't account for a lot of growth that I know has already occurred around downtown. And to the extent that growth is accounted for, it basically assumes that existing households only mature and that new households are similar to existing households. I can think of at least three zip codes that are going to look on paper like they transformed overnight.

Well to be honest I must give you credit Niche. Your previous analysis about retailers and the Census vs. the changes we know are happening and lax Claritas data is how I understood the significance of the 2010 Census.

As to the three ZIPs--this could be fun...my guesses would be 77003, 77004, and maybe 77023. As much as I pull for 77002 and 77011, I just don't think they're there yet.

Edited November 18, 2008 by GovernorAggie

[The Great Hizzy!]

This is not going well. I wonder how long it can last before it is forced to closed down for good. I say... 3 months.

LMAO!!

BAHAHAHAHAHA!!

[jgriff]

It's unfortunate that Houston Pavillions opened when it did. Houston is in for a terrible 2009. I'm seeing projects sitting in limbo or being canceled and hearing rumors of massive layoffs in the energy industry. I don't see how any development that is relying on a large retail component has any hope of success in this environment.

[tierwestah]

not a change of argument at all.... said HP will not drive business to itself just as a collection of shops and that no collection of retail at high or low end has been the driver for its own business

it is JUST like Victory in Dallas.....build an arena, one hotel, and a bunch of high end retail and restaurants and then watch no one come....because there are hundreds of other options and just a collection of retail and restaurants planted somewhere does not draw people on its own....it needs to have an existing base of customers to draw to it to have success.....and even though downtown is large and full of people there are already tons of other options like Park Shops and street level stores and restaurants

you listed a bunch of places that came to exist after an area had become full of residents and affluent.....this is not currently the area around HP

all the examples you listed and I provided links for came to exist a decade or more after the customers were already in the area

You present some interesting observations. Some make sense, but overall I disagree. One advantage HP has over Victory Park is it is in the middle of downtown , right off the rail line, and is close in proximity to the GRB, Discovery Green, and Hilton hotel. Also the tennant list is more for everyday people rather than being aimed primarily at the wealthy.

Remember, as 19154 pointed out in earlier in this thread, the main goal of H/P was to bring in more retail which is something that has been severely lacking for a long time. The few hundred tennants that were originally included in the plan make about as much difference as the nearby hotel occupants. You can't say this is like Park Shops. This development is at street level, it's outdoors, and more noticeable. Alot of my friends who came here to attend college at TSU have said that for the longest time, they were unaware that there was a mall inside the Houston Center. That's because of the lousy operating hours which only cater to the lunchtime crowd downtown.

Its funny how you've already drawn your verdict and you haven't even been down there yet. True, there's more i'd like to see there but I can say that i've already seen more patrons roaming around that area than i ever did before when that place was just parking lots. Furthermore, all the tennants haven't even shown up yet.

I think downtown Houston is on its way to following behind the footsteps of downtown Denver. Anybody who's visited Denver within the last 2 years will know that's a good model for what downtown Houston is shaping up to become. Just look at how Denver Pavilions by the same developers helped its downtown.

Edited November 19, 2008 by tierwestah

[TheNiche]

Well to be honest I must give you credit Niche. Your previous analysis about retailers and the Census vs. the changes we know are happening and lax Claritas data is how I understood the significance of the 2010 Census.

As to the three ZIPs--this could be fun...my guesses would be 77003, 77004, and maybe 77023. As much as I pull for 77002 and 77011, I just don't think they're there yet.

-003 (East Downtown because there wasn't much population to begin with and they were all very poor), -007 (Rice Military, Cottage Grove, Memorial Heights, 6th Ward, 1st Ward, Heights), and -008 (Heights, Timbergrove).

And come to think of it, -002 includes a strip of Midtown, the edge of 4th Ward, and all the townhomes up along Commerce Street, so that'll make a big difference net of the population counted as living in group quarters.

Also, until just now -010 only included the population living at the Four Seasons. It'll probably quintuple, sextuple, or whatever, and may improve somewhat.

-004 still has a fairly dense cluster of 'ingidinous' population, so I suspect it'll see improvement, but not anything unexpected. -019's changes will be more striking because 4th Ward's indiginous population has mostly been displaced.

-023 hasn't really experienced a lot of new construction, so it's shift will probably be more gradual. The same story will apply to -009.

I'm not sure that -011 will show meaningful improvement. I own a property there, so I would love to see some progress reflected in the demographics, but I really think that that area is going to take another several years before it really starts ramping up.

I've spent a lot of time contemplating this--it probably shows.