Memories Of Third Ward

[TheNiche]

How can some one not understand the fight? My Grandmothers house is worth over 300,000 not a lot of people in Third Ward can afford to buy an lot and preserve the history by themselfs, other than the ones who are puting up all those condos and lofts, thats why there puting signs in there yard and asking the city to help. Even MFA Houston sees the history of third ward. Click on the link to see the photos and read the history then maybe you will understand. I like the development but let the ones who are developing preserve the history since there the people who can afford it with the help of the community. The best pic is the on by Kristyl Richard "We Have a Future"

Who owned the house before your grandmother? Who is to say that a neighborhood belongs to one group or class of individuals? How do you define that group? And how come yours is so special that it should in your mind be exempt from the processes of demographic change, when it was yours that caused a change earlier in that neighborhood's history? And how come the future residents are so looked down upon when they're only taking a role that your grandmother once had?

I'm sure that the MFA recognizes that the 3rd Ward has history; they'd probably recognize that ALL neighborhoods have history if you prompted them with the question. None more than any other.

Urban renewal is so closely aligned with dismantling historic African American communities that in some quarters, it is referred to as "Negro removal"

My grandfather always used to refer to urban removal as "Negro removal". Although I heard others in the African American community use this term as well, I never saw this term in print until I encountered the book, Places of Their Own: African American Suburbanization in the Twentieth Century, by Andrew Wiese (Chicago: University of Chicago Press, 2004). On page 107, Wiese writes that the abuses or urban removal as "Negro removal have been well documented in cities, but not as well documented in suburbs even though it also occurred in the suburbs. In support of his claim, he cites 3 authors, 2 who have written about the process in cities and 1 who has documented the process in the suburbs. The 2 authors who have documented this process in cities include Mathew Edel, "Planning, Market or Warfare: Recent Land Use Conflict in American Cities," in Readings in Urban Economics, ed. Mathew Edel and Jerome Rothenberg (New York, 1972); also Marc A. Weiss, "The Origins and Legacy of Urban Renewal," in Federal Housing Policy and Programs, Past and Present, ed. J. Paul Mitchell (New Brunswick, N.J., 1985), 253-76.

At any rate, it is good to see that folks who have some affiliation or connection with The Third Ward and concerned, talking about and some taking action to preserve the neighborhood.

You and others may call it "negro removal". I call it integration...and it's about damned time.

[houstonmacbro]

how come yours is so special that it should in your mind be exempt from the processes of demographic change, when it was yours that caused a change earlier in that neighborhood's history?

So who 'caused' white flight? Are you saying blacks did?

I call it integration...and it's about damned time.

As long as it works both ways ... I'm fine with it.

[jdbaker]

Who owned the house before your grandmother? Who is to say that a neighborhood belongs to one group or class of individuals? How do you define that group? And how come yours is so special that it should in your mind be exempt from the processes of demographic change, when it was yours that caused a change earlier in that neighborhood's history? And how come the future residents are so looked down upon when they're only taking a role that your grandmother once had?

I'm sure that the MFA recognizes that the 3rd Ward has history; they'd probably recognize that ALL neighborhoods have history if you prompted them with the question. None more than any other.

You and others may call it "nego removal". I call it integration...and it's about damned time.

Thought Exercise: Caucasians begin moving to the Third Ward in large numbers, but do nothing to physically alter the neighborhood.

Are the residents whom are currently complaining still upset?

[TheNiche]

So who 'caused' white flight? Are you saying blacks did?

Sure, they were one of the causes.

As long as it works both ways ... I'm fine with it.

Ditto.

[tony]

Millenica, would you be in favor of "red-lining" The Tre[y]? I thought it was illegal. That'd sure stop those developers though.

[millennica]

Millenica, would you be in favor of "red-lining" The Tre[y]? I thought it was illegal. That'd sure stop those developers though.

No, I am not in favor of redlining nor am I suggesting it. Redlining is technically illegal although I am aware that it was used to create, maintain, and marginalize African American communities in the past. My point is only that once historic African American communities are discovered (and often they are discovered because they are close to desirable areas), they are rapidly gentrified and African Americans end up being displaced completely and scattered into the far flung suburbs. That's what happened in DC's Georgetown, Boston's South End, and is currently taking place in Chicago, Harlem, in the Bay View Hunters Point area of San Francisco, Treme (pronounced "Trah-May"; (historically sometimes called Trem

[Deut28Thirteen]

I lived in one of those far out suburbs. Ridgemont (tightest elementary school back in da day) and other close neighborhoods was once a master planed community in southwest Houston for the upper class of Houston, and now its is mostly a minority community of blacks and hispanics because the cost of living in the inner city is just too much. Its not integration if the people in third ward cant stay because the cost of living is too much cause the new people are moving in.

[Guest danax]

I don't live in Houston and so don't know much about your zoning policies or lack thereof, but I think that good urban planning could avoid the worst of what could happen to the Historic Third Ward.

It's hard to urban plan so that one property has lower taxes/value than its neighbor, which is about the only way I can see that urban planning can prevent gentrification. Besides, there are studies out there that show that gentrification doesn't result in high displacement rates, but actually benefits a lot of the original homeowners by, raising their property values, attracting improved services and infrastructure and by eliminating many other negative aspects of their environment, like crime. And in Houston, property taxes are limited to 10% increases annually, unless the structure on the property has been improved somehow, and once a person hits 65, taxes are all but eliminated.

Third Ward's State Rep. Garnet Coleman is trying another tactic, that of taking money from the Midtown TIRZ (Tax Increment Reinvestment Zone), which one would think was meant to improve Midtown, and is buying up land in 3rd Ward to keep it for lower income rentals in the future. I find this repugnant but I've heard little criticism of his actions, which shows that people aren't color blind, just color scared.

And while no one with a beating heart likes to see people forced to move, I hope we don't end up with unfair rent control laws like NY, L.A and other areas have.

[millennica]

Besides, there are studies out there that show that gentrification doesn't result in high displacement rates, but actually benefits a lot of the original homeowners by, raising their property values, attracting improved services and infrastructure and by eliminating many other negative aspects of their environment, like crime.

It would be helpful if you could provide the citations of the studies that show that gentrification doesn't result in high displacement rates. I don't doubt that there are benefits to homeowners. I agree that residents benefit when property values are increased, improved infrastructure and services attracted to the area, and crime rates lowered (I can't believe that crime is ever eliminated). While all of these are desirable benefits to the neighborhood, people only benefit from them if they can afford to stay in the neighborhood.

Based on my personal experience I haven't found that be the case in practice (it certainly wasn't the case in Boston's South End or in West Philadelphia which has been gentrified by folks affiliated with the University of Pennsylvania that provides low interest loans to University folks who want to purchase houses in a specific neighborhood. I know because this is how I purchased the house I currently own in the West Philadelphia neighborhood). Very few of the original residents of Boston's South End live in the gentrified neighborhood because they simply couldn't the afford the taxes on their properties. The same is true in West Philadelphia. So I really would appreciate having the citations, so I can be convinced otherwise and see in which specific locations long term residents haven't been displaced.

[spikey2]

We I speak of 3 rd ward .I speak of the area north of Alabama. The areas south of Alabama such as Riverside, Timbercrest, Sutton Place , Washington Terrace etc. were never a part of 3 rd ward. Only after white flight in the 50's and 60's and the area becoming predominately African American did everyone start calling this areas

3 rd ward. This area was built by whites, for whites, for a short time it was integrated and than became mostly one race, it is now becoming integrated and many of those young people moving into those town homes and condos are African Americans and other minorities moving from town homes in the galleria area,and briar forest area. This seems to be the area everyone is talking about.

"Old 3 rd Ward" is very different.

[Guest danax]

It would be helpful if you could provide the citations of the studies that show that gentrification doesn't result in high displacement rates.

USA Today link (Urban Affairs Review study cited)

There was another one that we discussed in the link about Garnet Coleman in my earlier post, but it's gone now.

I will say that most of the reasons that this study mentions for allowing residents to remain in gentrifying areas; subsidies, paying more of a percentage of income towards housing, living with more people per household , are all potentially temporary, meaning that if prices get too high, the thread will finally snap. Rent control, in some cities and prayer will still be there.

But should government be interfering in the market place with things like rent control? I say no. Living where you want to is not a basic human right.

[millennica]

USA Today link (Urban Affairs Review study cited)

There was another one that we discussed in the link about Garnet Coleman in my earlier post, but it's gone now.

I will say that most of the reasons that this study mentions for allowing residents to remain in gentrifying areas; subsidies, paying more of a percentage of income towards housing, living with more people per household , are all potentially temporary, meaning that if prices get too high, the thread will finally snap. Rent control, in some cities and prayer will still be there.

But should government be interfering in the market place with things like rent control? I say no. Living where you want to is not a basic human right.

Thanks for sending the USA Today link. I'll have to go the library and see if I can find the actual article that USA Today is citing as I prefer to read the original and draw my own conclusions rather than rely on what a newspaper, magazine or individual has concluded from their reading of the original material.

My guess is that you and I probably disagree about some aspects government regulation. But, I am a big supporter of diversity in all aspects of life--including diversity and differences of opinion.

[Dan the Man]

...thats why there puting signs in there yard and asking the city to help.

The city is not going to do anything to help preserve 3rd Ward. Allowing the area to gentrify is in the city's best interest, as it will increase their tax base, and they recognize that fact. If residents want the neighborhood's history to be preserved, they should step in and do something about it themselves. This would be a lot more effective than just complaining that the city isn't helping.

[musicman]

I lived in one of those far out suburbs. Ridgemont (tightest elementary school back in da day) and other close neighborhoods was once a master planed community in southwest Houston for the upper class of Houston, and now its is mostly a minority community of blacks and hispanics because the cost of living in the inner city is just too much. Its not integration if the people in third ward cant stay because the cost of living is too much cause the new people are moving in.

not sure if i believe your explanation. many blacks (the ones who could afford to) left the 3rd ward because the schools were poor there and wanted to move where public schools were better (at least some i know) and that was ft bend county. Now, that the 3rd ward is being discovered by developers, land values are going up. many minorities that are fairly well off prefer a new home vs one in an area considered poor.

[musicman]

USA Today link (Urban Affairs Review study cited)

There was another one that we discussed in the link about Garnet Coleman in my earlier post, but it's gone now.

I will say that most of the reasons that this study mentions for allowing residents to remain in gentrifying areas; subsidies, paying more of a percentage of income towards housing, living with more people per household , are all potentially temporary, meaning that if prices get too high, the thread will finally snap. Rent control, in some cities and prayer will still be there.

But should government be interfering in the market place with things like rent control? I say no. Living where you want to is not a basic human right.

excellent article danax. the information should be eyeopening for those who can put aside the race aspect.

[Deut28Thirteen]

Does the City of Houston do more to keep the histoy of the Heights even though the wards were here 1st. It was created as a new area for the upper class of the city and now its has a very diverse population now. I dont think I started this topic as Blacks vs Whites or who got up rotted from the third ward 1st but to let people know that third ward and the other wards history is worth keeping. Even in this forum it say the heights is the only place to see the city as it was a 100 years ago. Does houston think the heights history is more important than that of Third Ward?

[millennica]

The city is not going to do anything to help preserve 3rd Ward. Allowing the area to gentrify is in the city's best interest, as it will increase their tax base, and they recognize that fact. If residents want the neighborhood's history to be preserved, they should step in and do something about it themselves. This would be a lot more effective than just complaining that the city isn't helping.

Back in December 2006, I read a NYTimes Article about an arts project that was underway in the Third Ward under the direction of Robert Lowe. At the time I read the article, I knew very little about the Third Ward except for what I gleaned from the article. I've pasted the link to the article that appeared in the NYTimes and another link to an article that first appeared in High Performance. Is anyone familiar with this project? Does anyone know what effect it is having on the Third Ward?

NYTimes article

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/12/17/arts/design/17kimm.html?

ex=1324011600&en=cb028cf20506be7b&ei=5088&partner=rssnyt&emc=rss

High Performance article

http://www.communityarts.net/readingroom/a...in_the_hous.php

Back in December 2006, I read a NYTimes Article about an arts project that was underway in the Third Ward under the direction of Robert Lowe. At the time I read the article, I knew very little about the Third Ward except for what I gleaned from the article. I've pasted the link to the article that appeared in the NYTimes and another link to an article that first appeared in High Performance. Is anyone familiar with this project? Does anyone know what effect it is having on the Third Ward?

NYTimes article

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/12/17/arts/design/17kimm.html?

ex=1324011600&en=cb028cf20506be7b&ei=5088&partner=rssnyt&emc=rss

High Performance article

http://www.communityarts.net/readingroom/a...in_the_hous.php

Apologies. The man's name is Rick Lowe.

[musicman]

Does the City of Houston do more to keep the histoy of the Heights even though the wards were here 1st. It was created as a new area for the upper class of the city and now its has a very diverse population now. I dont think I started this topic as Blacks vs Whites or who got up rotted from the third ward 1st but to let people know that third ward and the other wards history is worth keeping. Even in this forum it say the heights is the only place to see the city as it was a 100 years ago. Does houston think the heights history is more important than that of Third Ward?

the city hasn't done much if anything to preserve heights history. the residents have. many in the heights say the same thing is happening there (developers coming in) that is happening in the third ward and other older areas.

[musicman]

Back in December 2006, I read a NYTimes Article about an arts project that was underway in the Third Ward under the direction of Robert Lowe. At the time I read the article, I knew very little about the Third Ward except for what I gleaned from the article. I've pasted the link to the article that appeared in the NYTimes and another link to an article that first appeared in High Performance. Is anyone familiar with this project? Does anyone know what effect it is having on the Third Ward?

NYTimes article

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/12/17/arts/design/17kimm.html?

ex=1324011600&en=cb028cf20506be7b&ei=5088&partner=rssnyt&emc=rss

High Performance article

http://www.communityarts.net/readingroom/a...in_the_hous.php

Apologies. The man's name is Rick Lowe.

your NYT link appears to be dead however the High performance link is. the Project Row houses are well known. I believe there is a haif link here.

[millennica]

your NYT link appears to be dead however the High performance link is. the Project Row houses are well known. I believe there is a haif link here.

Don't know why the NYTimes link isn't working as I am able to load it into my browser.

I've pasted it here again. You may have to cut and paste into the browser rather than simply click on it. Alternately, you could google it and see if you can retrieve it that way. Below I have copied when comes up when I google the NYTimes article

<h2 class="r">Project Row Houses - Rick Lowe - - Art - Report - New York Times</h2>In Houston, Art Is Where the Home Is. Michael Stravato for The New York Times ... And the Third Ward could be his canvas. He was inspired by John Biggers, ...

www.nytimes.com/2006/12/17/arts/design/17kimm.html?ex=1324011600&en=cb028cf20506be7b&ei=5088&... - May 30, 2007 - Similar pages - Note this

I would paste in the text of the article but it is several pages long and accompanied by a multimedia slide show.

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/12/17/arts/design/

17kimm.html?ex=1324011600&en=cb028cf20506be7b&ei=

5088&partner=rssnyt&emc=rss

[musicman]

Don't know why the NYTimes link isn't working as I am able to load it into my browser.

says you need a log in. the newer one you posted did the same thing. no prob.

this is it i believe. i've always liked the project. would work well for a single person or a couple perhaps. I think the families are the ones are probably most in need but making this work for them might be a challenge. one of the secretaries here is a 3rd ward native and moved back ~3 yrs ago. she likes except for the fact that a nearby church evidently rings their bells too early in the morning. evidently she was irritated enough to contact 11news who did a story on it.

[TheNiche]

Its not integration if the people in third ward cant stay because the cost of living is too much cause the new people are moving in.

If none of the people can stay, then the population is scattered to the winds, most of them moving to parts of town that are less culturally and socioeconomically insulated. Behold: integration.

If about a third of them stay because they own their own homes (35%, to be exact), then blacks continue to be disproportionately represented as a percentage of the population in the neighborhood because they only comprise about 16% of the regional population; those that stay because they own their homes will also be much wealthier because their homes are worth more. ...but I'd expect that a lot of them would cash in and move to better digs. And who could blame them for wanting better housing, most likely with better schools and a more diverse neighborhood?

[TheNiche]

Does the City of Houston do more to keep the histoy of the Heights even though the wards were here 1st.

The Heights civic associations and private individuals are really active in seeking historical designations for homes and buildings in that area. It has almost nothing to do with the City of Houston as a government entity.

Even in this forum it say the heights is the only place to see the city as it was a 100 years ago.

I don't think I've ever seen anyone make that claim. And I'd ridicule anyone that did because...well, it's ridiculous.

Does houston think the heights history is more important than that of Third Ward?

People who live in the Heights probably think so, but at least from my perspective, they are equally unimportant.

[houstonmacbro]

Sure, they were one of the causes.

Ditto.

I find that an odd thought. That blacks CAUSED whites to move out, but whatever...

[houstonmacbro]

And who could blame them for wanting better housing, most likely with better schools and a more diverse neighborhood?

Better housing ... ? I guess that is in the eye of the beholder... Cause seems like a lot of folks (you know .. .the 'uppies' that start with G, B, Y, etc.) want those same houses and neighborhoods that you are inferring are substandard. They want them because they are close to town and all the amenities that city living affords. They are willing to take the risk on a 'bad' neighborhood because they know that in 3 - 5 years, their investment will have easily doubled once the neighborhood takes off.

On a similar note, I was telling a co worker that I was looking at a house in the city and named the areas. She is a realtor (not mine) and asked what my price range is. I told her and she stated emphatically "Why would you want to live there!! You could buy a big spread out in Atascocita or somewhere....") The implication is that if I spend 'that kinda money' (which honestly is NOT a lot) I could have a better quality of life elsewhere.

But I have been trying to ESCAPE the suburbs ... not get more entrenched in them. I like urban living and being closer to things that I find attractive (cultural institutions, downtown, 3rd Ward, the universities, etc.).

Am I a moron for not wanting to live in the bland (my personal observation, not factual) suburbs?

[KinkaidAlum]

It would be helpful if you could provide the citations of the studies that show that gentrification doesn't result in high displacement rates. I don't doubt that there are benefits to homeowners. I agree that residents benefit when property values are increased, improved infrastructure and services attracted to the area, and crime rates lowered (I can't believe that crime is ever eliminated). While all of these are desirable benefits to the neighborhood, people only benefit from them if they can afford to stay in the neighborhood.

Based on my personal experience I haven't found that be the case in practice (it certainly wasn't the case in Boston's South End or in West Philadelphia which has been gentrified by folks affiliated with the University of Pennsylvania that provides low interest loans to University folks who want to purchase houses in a specific neighborhood. I know because this is how I purchased the house I currently own in the West Philadelphia neighborhood). Very few of the original residents of Boston's South End live in the gentrified neighborhood because they simply couldn't the afford the taxes on their properties. The same is true in West Philadelphia. So I really would appreciate having the citations, so I can be convinced otherwise and see in which specific locations long term residents haven't been displaced.

In addition to what you stated, you also have to realize that home ownership in these neighborhoods (owner-occupied) is very low. Many of these houses are rented. Many of them have never been owned by local residents.

[TheNiche]

I find that an odd thought. That blacks CAUSED whites to move out, but whatever...

Well it does seem odd at first, but without the simultaneous combination of racism and blacks moving into the neighborhood, white flight would not have occured. It took both. Either one without the other would have had effectively no impact.

[houstonmacbro]

Well it does seem odd at first, but without the simultaneous combination of racism and blacks moving into the neighborhood, white flight would not have occured. It took both. Either one without the other would have had effectively no impact.

Racism ... from blacks towards white?

That is not the pattern of white flight... Whites historically moved out because they didn't want to be around minorities. Not because blacks were exhibiting racism.

[TheNiche]

Better housing ... ? I guess that is in the eye of the beholder... Cause seems like a lot of folks (you know .. .the 'uppies' that start with G, B, Y, etc.) want those same houses and neighborhoods that you are inferring are substandard. They want them because they are close to town and all the amenities that city living affords. They are willing to take the risk on a 'bad' neighborhood because they know that in 3 - 5 years, their investment will have easily doubled once the neighborhood takes off.

Nah, the -uppies (and the investors/developers that cater to them) want the land for the reasons that you cited, but most of the housing is beyond worthless--it is viewed as a liability that must be removed. And these same -uppies tend not to have children, so crappy schools just aren't even an issue.

On a similar note, I was telling a co worker that I was looking at a house in the city and named the areas. She is a realtor (not mine) and asked what my price range is. I told her and she stated emphatically "Why would you want to live there!! You could buy a big spread out in Atascocita or somewhere....") The implication is that if I spend 'that kinda money' (which honestly is NOT a lot) I could have a better quality of life elsewhere.

But I have been trying to ESCAPE the suburbs ... not get more entrenched in them. I like urban living and being closer to things that I find attractive (cultural institutions, downtown, 3rd Ward, the universities, etc.).

Am I a moron for not wanting to live in the bland (my personal observation, not factual) suburbs?

I get that all the time when I tell people that I'm investing in East End real estate. They can't figure out what's in it. I've even dealt with banks that simply refuse to lend on anything in that neighborhood.

We aren't crazy or morons, but we do represent a pretty small minority of such people, that much is certain.

Racism ... from blacks towards white?

That is not the pattern of white flight... Whites historically moved out because they didn't want to be around minorities. Not because blacks were exhibiting racism.

No, white toward black. Sorry if I wasn't clear.

[sevfiv]

USA Today link (Urban Affairs Review study cited)

fwiw, the Lance Freeman article is in volume 40, number 4 of Urban Affairs Review (March 2005, page 463)

the title is "Displacement or Succession?: Residential Mobility in Gentrifying Neighborhoods"