I-45 Rebuild (North Houston Highway Improvement Project)

[strickn]

Which they might have predicted, if extrapolating from the traffic patterns 1955-1979 like a responsible agency would do.

I-14 will be a major rearrangement; Houston trucks headed to/from anywhere west of Bryan will find 290 more direct than 45-North, and anywhere east of Lufkin will find I-69 more direct than 45-North.

Edited January 13 by strickn
Added last sentence

[strickn]

As I understand it, that leaves the destinations for which I-45N is best as just The Woodlands and maybe Dallas.  

It might remain a little faster to and from Beltway 8 and 610 North Loop (if someone is coming from somewhere south of central Houston) on a good day as compared to I-69 -- and since the Hardy and 290 don't cross and reach downtown, respectively.  

[mattyt36]

4 hours ago, strickn said:

As I understand it, that leaves the destinations for which I-45N is best as just The Woodlands and maybe Dallas.  

"just The Woodlands and maybe Dallas"?

Where on earth do you think the majority of the demand is coming from?

Will all of your I-14 be built to the East Coast on a faster schedule than, say, I dunno, I-69 to Port Huron?

 

[Big E]

On 1/12/2023 at 8:11 PM, strickn said:

Could anyone please comment on whether TxDOT's press conferences about the demand for the widening have referenced I-14 at all?

I-14 is probably decades away from being completed, if its completed at all. It has to go through some of the poorest states in the Union, which lack the money to build it. We know this, because two of those states are also states where I-69 will go through, and only one of them has done the bear minimum of effort to do any work on I-69 and the other has done absolutely and will do absolutely nothing because there is a laundry list of projects ahead of it, and I-14 is almost certainly behind that.

[texan]

Some things of note in the MOUs from the Downtown TIRZ January meeting minutes:

Cap in Segment 2 at N Main. (I think this was already committed to as the structural cap from N Main to Cottage St.

Cantilevered frontage roads to reduce project footprint along depressed sections in Segment 2.

http://www.downtowntirz.com/downtownhouston/wp-content/uploads/2023/01/230110-DRA-TIRZ3-Board-Materials.pdf

https://www.txdot.gov/nhhip/project-segments/segment2.html

These may have been discussed and I might have missed it but these seem like much more concrete commitments for segment 2.

[Big E]

18 hours ago, texan said:

Some things of note in the MOUs from the Downtown TIRZ January meeting minutes:

Cap in Segment 2 at N Main. (I think this was already committed to as the structural cap from N Main to Cottage St.

Cantilevered frontage roads to reduce project footprint along depressed sections in Segment 2.

http://www.downtowntirz.com/downtownhouston/wp-content/uploads/2023/01/230110-DRA-TIRZ3-Board-Materials.pdf

https://www.txdot.gov/nhhip/project-segments/segment2.html

These may have been discussed and I might have missed it but these seem like much more concrete commitments for segment 2.

What I seem to be getting, and what I've heard others articulate, is that, based on these memorandums of understanding, the TxDOT isn't really obligated to do anything but "try" to mitigate certain impacts, like housing loss. This agreement isn't requiring them to do anything they weren't already planning to do anyway, except pay people more money to move. Am I understanding this correctly? Someone help me out.

[trymahjong]

Who exactly is TxDot accountable to.....? Who makes TxDot quake in their boots  reviewing TxDot actions of " trying" to meditate certain circumstances .....but failing? 

[Houston19514]

On 1/14/2023 at 9:32 AM, texan said:

Some things of note in the MOUs from the Downtown TIRZ January meeting minutes:

Cap in Segment 2 at N Main. (I think this was already committed to as the structural cap from N Main to Cottage St.

Cantilevered frontage roads to reduce project footprint along depressed sections in Segment 2.

http://www.downtowntirz.com/downtownhouston/wp-content/uploads/2023/01/230110-DRA-TIRZ3-Board-Materials.pdf

https://www.txdot.gov/nhhip/project-segments/segment2.html

These may have been discussed and I might have missed it but these seem like much more concrete commitments for segment 2.

Nothing very concrete here.  The cap was already planned.  As to the commitment to consider cantilevering frontage roads along depressed sections . . . The only depressed section is where they are installing the cap; so if they cantilever the frontage roads it will reduce the available space for a cap park; and perhaps more important, is an area where they are already planning to take VERY little additional right of way.

 Even more to the point, I just looked again at the plans.  The plan already includes cantilevered frontage roads on the depressed section in Segment 2!

Edited January 15 by Houston19514

[BEES?!]

It sounds like they’re pretty serious (the Houston stakeholders I mean) about pursuing the Pierce Skypark, just going off the documents from downtown houston. 

If they really do it, it’d be quite a bit wider than the High Line in NYC, wouldn’t it? There’d be some pretty awesome stuff they could do with the structure, lots of potential really neat uses and those views would be outstanding. 

[texan]

3 hours ago, Houston19514 said:

Nothing very concrete here.  The cap was already planned.  As to the commitment to consider cantilevering frontage roads along depressed sections . . . The only depressed section is where they are installing the cap; so if they cantilever the frontage roads it will reduce the available space for a cap park; and perhaps more important, is an area where they are already planning to take VERY little additional right of way.

 Even more to the point, I just looked again at the plans.  The plan already includes cantilevered frontage roads on the depressed section in Segment 2!

Guess it was all political theater 🤷🏼‍♂️

[Houston19514]

Just now, texan said:

Guess it was all political theater 🤷🏼‍♂️

It was indeed.  Orchestrated by our city and county "leaders".  Shameful.

[Big E]

9 hours ago, texan said:

Guess it was all political theater 🤷🏼‍♂️

If you actually read the MOU, this crap is so vague, a lawyer could drive a semi through those holes.

Read under the heading "Reducing the NHHIP Footprint during detailed design" on page 35. It doesn't actually commit TxDOT to reducing anything, and in fact gives them so much wiggle room in regards to what they will consider when discussing any potential "reduction" in the footprint, and gives them an all encompassing out in that "any proposals to reduce the Project footprint must not compromise the safety, flooding mitigation, design standards, freight mobility, and evacuation effectiveness", that that section might as well not exist at all.

[Houston19514]

10 hours ago, Big E said:

If you actually read the MOU, this crap is so vague, a lawyer could drive a semi through those holes.

Read under the heading "Reducing the NHHIP Footprint during detailed design" on page 35. It doesn't actually commit TxDOT to reducing anything, and in fact gives them so much wiggle room in regards to what they will consider when discussing any potential "reduction" in the footprint, and gives them an all encompassing out in that "any proposals to reduce the Project footprint must not compromise the safety, flooding mitigation, design standards, freight mobility, and evacuation effectiveness", that that section might as well not exist at all.

All of which (including minimizing the footprint) was already the plan.

[mattyt36]

As I am (happily) not an engineer, can someone explain cantilever roads?  Is this a design like the LBJ Freeway in Dallas between the Stemmons and Central Exwy?

[Luminare]

On 1/15/2023 at 10:48 PM, Big E said:

If you actually read the MOU, this crap is so vague, a lawyer could drive a semi through those holes.

Read under the heading "Reducing the NHHIP Footprint during detailed design" on page 35. It doesn't actually commit TxDOT to reducing anything, and in fact gives them so much wiggle room in regards to what they will consider when discussing any potential "reduction" in the footprint, and gives them an all encompassing out in that "any proposals to reduce the Project footprint must not compromise the safety, flooding mitigation, design standards, freight mobility, and evacuation effectiveness", that that section might as well not exist at all.

If I were advising the writing and negotiation of the contract they probably have I would say use that exact same language. Its just like in architecture contracts we are seen in the courts eyes as not having to be perfect. Restrictive language in the reducing footprint context is basically designed to be a poison pill, and they will have to make that a priority over the other elements that are in quotations. If they ignore those elements for the sake of reducing the footprint and something goes wrong then whoever is designing this project, including TXDOT open themselves up to liability. For example if a client wants something in a contract like "the design will be the best and conform to all code requirements" that is basically putting myself in a box. Just like "reducing the footprint" is ambiguous, so is what is "best" and even "all". This puts a burden on the designer to be "perfect" and if you agree to a clause like that and you do anything wrong then you have go outside what is normal and reasonable for your profession. For those that might be angry at the language, put yourself in an architects shoes or an engineers shoes or even TXDOT.

[IntheKnowHouston]

Today's Houston Chronicle article touches on the Interstate 45 / I-45 project and the proposed sky park replacing the Pierce Elevated.

Additionally, the article focuses on the sales listing of the Greyhound bus station in Midtown and the possible closure of the nearby McDonald's.


https://www.houstonchronicle.com/business/real-estate/article/greyhound-mcdonalds-midtown-houston-skypark-pierce-17742026.php

[hindesky]

Pics of what the Pierce Elevated could look like if it was remodeled.

Edited January 28 by hindesky

[hindesky]

[HoustonMidtown]

Roads are open again around the Lofts by the Ballpark area that was demolished

 

 

Edited January 29 by HoustonMidtown

[MexAmerican_Moose]

as a bridge engineer, I'm fascinated what other countries are able to do with the space under their bridges....us...errr

[steve1363]

49 minutes ago, MexAmerican_Moose said:

as a bridge engineer, I'm fascinated what other countries are able to do with the space under their bridges....us...errr

What do other countries do?  Just yesterday I went underneath 45 to get to the east side feeder road near Crosstimbers (for JCI!).  That underpass was so dark and scary.  I practically sped through it.  My imagination ran wild of people coming out of the dark and blocking my passage before I could get on the feeder road on the other side!

It was worth it though.  My chili cheese coneys hit the spot!  😆

[Montrose1100]

Just tear down the pierce elevated FFS. The views from it aren't even that great.

[Big E]

5 hours ago, Montrose1100 said:

Just tear down the pierce elevated FFS. The views from it aren't even that great.

That's what I've been saying!

[mattyt36]

I've said this many moons ago and it wasn't well received, but the one thing that concerns me is that we may be going overboard with parks here after years of not having much.  It is going to cost a lot to maintain Disco Green, the new cap park, Trebly Park, Market Square Park, Lynn Wyatt Square, Buffalo Bayou Park, not to mention the proposed greenbelt and now the Pierce Elevated Park.  If they're not all regularly teeming with people, I just fear they will become overrun with homeless or become neglected and turn into something more like Tranquility Park or Midtown Park.  Not to mention, who in the heck wants to go walking around the Pierce Elevated for 6 months a year without any tree cover.  (There's the same problem with the Post Skylawn.)

[kennyc05]

1 hour ago, mattyt36 said:

I've said this many moons ago and it wasn't well received, but the one thing that concerns me is that we may be going overboard with parks here after years of not having much.  It is going to cost a lot to maintain Disco Green, the new cap park, Trebly Park, Market Square Park, Lynn Wyatt Square, Buffalo Bayou Park, not to mention the proposed greenbelt and now the Pierce Elevated Park.  If they're not all regularly teeming with people, I just fear they will become overrun with homeless or become neglected and turn into something more like Tranquility Park or Midtown Park.  Not to mention, who in the heck wants to go walking around the Pierce Elevated for 6 months a year without any tree cover.  (There's the same problem with the Post Skylawn.)

If you build it they will come look at Post Houston 😏

[IWantTransit555]

2 hours ago, mattyt36 said:

proposed greenbelt

Tell me more!

[mattyt36]

1 hour ago, kennyc05 said:

If you build it they will come look at Post Houston 😏

But the "they" is finite, and if "they" decide to start going to one of the shiny new parks, you risk the existing infrastructure becoming "forgotten."

In general this is a frustration I have always had about Houston--very little coordinated development and they all compete against each other, I guess as a side effect of zoning.  You get a development like Post in one place, then East River a couple miles away, then the Autry Park and Regent Square stuff a couple miles away in the opposite direction.  We go from nothing to four or five similar developments in a relatively short period of time.  Downtown residential spread over Market Square, around Minute Maid, and on the south end.  It just seems it would've been more impactful if the development were centralized and radiated out. 

But I suppose I shouldn't complain.  And I hope I'm wrong.

50 minutes ago, IWantTransit555 said:

Tell me more!

Guess it's called the "Green Loop"--see https://www.centralhouston.org/filer/0/1615334642/470/, page 13 of the PDF.  I haven't seen that it is anything other than a conceptual plan, but, then again, so is the Pierce Skypark.

[kennyc05]

45 minutes ago, mattyt36 said:

But the "they" is finite, and if "they" decide to start going to one of the shiny new parks, you risk the existing infrastructure becoming "forgotten."

In general this is a frustration I have always had about Houston--very little coordinated development and they all compete against each other, I guess as a side effect of zoning.  You get a development like Post in one place, then East River a couple miles away, then the Autry Park and Regent Square stuff a couple miles away in the opposite direction.  We go from nothing to four or five similar developments in a relatively short period of time.  Downtown residential spread over Market Square, around Minute Maid, and on the south end.  It just seems it would've been more impactful if the development were centralized and radiated out. 

But I suppose I shouldn't complain.  And I hope I'm wrong.

Guess it's called the "Green Loop"--see https://www.centralhouston.org/filer/0/1615334642/470/, page 13 of the PDF.  I haven't seen that it is anything other than a conceptual plan, but, then again, so is the Pierce Skypark.

I hear what you're saying but there's tons of people moving inside of the loop so I'm pretty sure they'll be demand for all of these parks and new developments to be utilized.

[mattyt36]

If people are so wedded to this Sky Park, wouldn't a compromise alternative be to just leave like 2-3 blocks up instead of the whole length of Pierce downtown?  Maybe integrate this shorter section into the "Green Loop" somehow?

[004n063]

14 hours ago, mattyt36 said:

 become neglected and turn into something more like...Midtown Park. 

I'm not super attached to the skypark idea, but...huh? Have you been to Midtown Park? It's definitely not neglected...

[mattyt36]

2 hours ago, 004n063 said:

I'm not super attached to the skypark idea, but...huh? Have you been to Midtown Park? It's definitely not neglected...

I have admittedly not been there for a while, other than driving by--it seemed very lightly used.  But maybe it is a roll of the die.

Bagby Park has turned around thanks to La Calle--could you be thinking of that?  Hopefully the LaCalle rebuild only takes two months as advertised.

[hindesky]

https://www.khou.com/article/news/local/sky-park-midtown-pierce-elevated-transformation/285-2ec94c7f-3147-44e5-a8d3-33577e454248

[hindesky]

From SWA Group.......

https://www.swagroup.com/projects/houston-green-loop/

[TacoDog]

SWA Green Belt plan

[004n063]

5 hours ago, mattyt36 said:

I have admittedly not been there for a while, other than driving by--it seemed very lightly used.  But maybe it is a roll of the die.

Bagby Park has turned around thanks to La Calle--could you be thinking of that?  Hopefully the LaCalle rebuild only takes two months as advertised.

No, I live near Midtown Park. There are events there pretty much every weekend, and there are zumba classes and such pretty much every evening. Plus people doing hill sprints, playing on the playground, using the dog park, or just hanging out whenever the weather is nice. It's not Discovery Green level of bustle, but as far as neighborhood parks go, it's pretty well-used. More so than Bagby Park, I'd say.

[mattyt36]

3 hours ago, hindesky said:

https://www.khou.com/article/news/local/sky-park-midtown-pierce-elevated-transformation/285-2ec94c7f-3147-44e5-a8d3-33577e454248

From the article:

"Baumgardner and SWA Houston are the designers behind Buffalo Bayou Park and GRB Plaza. They were tasked with figuring out options for Pierce Elevated."

My question: Tasked by whom?  As that makes a difference in how "serious" it is.

41 minutes ago, 004n063 said:

No, I live near Midtown Park. There are events there pretty much every weekend, and there are zumba classes and such pretty much every evening. Plus people doing hill sprints, playing on the playground, using the dog park, or just hanging out whenever the weather is nice. It's not Discovery Green level of bustle, but as far as neighborhood parks go, it's pretty well-used. More so than Bagby Park, I'd say.

Good to hear.

(Doesn't seem like an ideal place for hill sprints 🤣)

[Houston19514]

18 minutes ago, mattyt36 said:

From the article:

"Baumgardner and SWA Houston are the designers behind Buffalo Bayou Park and GRB Plaza. They were tasked with figuring out options for Pierce Elevated."

My question: Tasked by whom?  As that makes a difference in how "serious" it is.

Good to hear.

(Doesn't seem like an ideal place for hill sprints 🤣)

And what is "GRB Plaza"??  Are they referring to Avenida Houston?  Journalists...  <SMH>  I have never before heard it referred to as GRB Plaza, and that is definitely NOT its name.  

Edited February 1 by Houston19514

[mattyt36]

3 hours ago, TacoDog said:

SWA Green Belt plan

It's a bit more intricate than that if you look at pages 13-16 of the PDF (document pages 20-26):

https://www.centralhouston.org/filer/0/1615334642/470/ 

The plan suggested pretty major roadway modifications in Downtown, Midtown, and EaDO, probably akin to the recent Bagby Street redux:

Create a trail with a generous pedestrian path, an amenity zone, and a two-way bikeway. Paving, materials, and patterns should be high-quality and consistent to brand the trail.

In fact, Pierce was one of the key streets identified.

But thanks for posting this as it is just now clicking with me that the cap park isn't flush with the GRB (probably due to the interchanges), but rather it will be from the center of the GRB to 3 blocks north of MMP, which is much bigger than what I expected.  Should make the lots north of MMP more valuable and a logical place for additional residential development.  

Edited February 1 by mattyt36

[HouTXRanger]

On 1/15/2023 at 9:36 AM, BEES?! said:

It sounds like they’re pretty serious (the Houston stakeholders I mean) about pursuing the Pierce Skypark, just going off the documents from downtown houston. 

If they really do it, it’d be quite a bit wider than the High Line in NYC, wouldn’t it? There’d be some pretty awesome stuff they could do with the structure, lots of potential really neat uses and those views would be outstanding. 

God, I hope not. That thing was terrible to walk under. Hopefully they at least tear down half of it to free up the street frontage on pierce.

Edited February 23 by HouTXRanger

[Some one]

I thought they were planning on tearing down half of it and turning the other half into the skypark. 

[bookey23]

Based on the current map available on the TXDOT website, they will be leaving up the portion of the Pierce Elevated from Brazos to Chenevert. So, as currently planned, they will not really be removing the barrier between Downtown and Midtown.

[mattyt36]

33 minutes ago, bookey23 said:

Based on the current map available on the TXDOT website, they will be leaving up the portion of the Pierce Elevated from Brazos to Chenevert. So, as currently planned, they will not really be removing the barrier between Downtown and Midtown.

Lame

[mattyt36]

Below is a link to the Midtown Parks and Public Space Master Plan that I believe came out last week, which does not refer to the SkyPark as anything more than an option.

https://midtownhouston.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/02/Midtown-Parks-and-Public-Space_DRAFT_230216.pdf

 

[mfastx]

18 hours ago, bookey23 said:

Based on the current map available on the TXDOT website, they will be leaving up the portion of the Pierce Elevated from Brazos to Chenevert. So, as currently planned, they will not really be removing the barrier between Downtown and Midtown.

Um that's not a portion, that's the entire thing! 

[bookey23]

17 hours ago, mattyt36 said:

Below is a link to the Midtown Parks and Public Space Master Plan that I believe came out last week, which does not refer to the SkyPark as anything more than an option.

https://midtownhouston.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/02/Midtown-Parks-and-Public-Space_DRAFT_230216.pdf

 

Thanks for sharing, this was an interesting read! If they actually implement this plan over the next decade, Midtown's streets will be unrecognizable!

[bookey23]

No-go on Pierce Elevated

That said, Lionheart Places’ draft master plan might be viewed by some as pouring cold water on long-simmering proposals to convert the Pierce Elevated portion of I-45 near Pierce Street into something that benefits the local community. The roadway is expected to be abandoned if the Texas Department of Transportation's I-45 North Houston Highway Improvement Project comes to fruition.

But some have argued the roadway could be converted into a sky park similar to the High Line in New York City.

Those ideas received renewed attention in recent weeks after a much-maligned McDonald’s on South Main Street was torn down and the adjacent Greyhound bus station went up for sale.

But during the Feb. 22 meeting, Marlon Marshall, director of engineering and construction for MRA, said there are no immediate plans to make any significant changes to Pierce Elevated.

“Like everyone, we are very excited about the opportunities for development created by the Greyhound station going up for sale,” Marshall said. “We have been working with our partners to discuss civic improvement potential under the NHHIP plan. But the purpose of this master plan is to focus on short-term improvements that could have an impact on the community.”

He added that any effort to turn Pierce Elevated into a park or even demolish it would require significant funding and planning by TxDOT, as well as state and local officials.

“The Pierce Elevated will remain in place for at least the next 10 years,” he said.

From the HBJ article on the Midtown plan: Midtown Redevelopment Authority unveils street, parks improvement plan draft - Houston Business Journal (bizjournals.com)

Edited February 24 by bookey23

[mattyt36]

35 minutes ago, bookey23 said:

No-go on Pierce Elevated

That said, Lionheart Places’ draft master plan might be viewed by some as pouring cold water on long-simmering proposals to convert the Pierce Elevated portion of I-45 near Pierce Street into something that benefits the local community. The roadway is expected to be abandoned if the Texas Department of Transportation's I-45 North Houston Highway Improvement Project comes to fruition.

But some have argued the roadway could be converted into a sky park similar to the High Line in New York City.

Those ideas received renewed attention in recent weeks after a much-maligned McDonald’s on South Main Street was torn down and the adjacent Greyhound bus station went up for sale.

But during the Feb. 22 meeting, Marlon Marshall, director of engineering and construction for MRA, said there are no immediate plans to make any significant changes to Pierce Elevated.

“Like everyone, we are very excited about the opportunities for development created by the Greyhound station going up for sale,” Marshall said. “We have been working with our partners to discuss civic improvement potential under the NHHIP plan. But the purpose of this master plan is to focus on short-term improvements that could have an impact on the community.”

He added that any effort to turn Pierce Elevated into a park or even demolish it would require significant funding and planning by TxDOT, as well as state and local officials.

“The Pierce Elevated will remain in place for at least the next 10 years,” he said.

From the HBJ article on the Midtown plan: Midtown Redevelopment Authority unveils street, parks improvement plan draft - Houston Business Journal (bizjournals.com)

Oh wonderful, the worst of both worlds.

42 minutes ago, bookey23 said:

Thanks for sharing, this was an interesting read! If they actually implement this plan over the next decade, Midtown's streets will be unrecognizable!

There was some pretty interesting stuff in there, like I did not know the Midtown TIRZ has this exclave around the Menil.  Also the street proposals are pretty game-changing if they proceed--Fannin, San Jacinto, and Crawford going two-way.  And McGowen getting the Bagby/Caroline treatment.  I guess that leaves only Smith, Louisiana, Milam, and Travis as the main "drive-through" streets.  I wish they weren't 4 blocks in a row, though.

[Houston19514]

On 2/23/2023 at 2:37 PM, bookey23 said:

Based on the current map available on the TXDOT website, they will be leaving up the portion of the Pierce Elevated from Brazos to Chenevert. So, as currently planned, they will not really be removing the barrier between Downtown and Midtown.

Can you provide a link to where you are seeing that?

There is actually a pretty good summary of the status of plans for the Pierce Elevated contained within the Midtown Master Plan referenced above:  "

"On the north edge, Pierce Elevated has been determined to be redundant, so it potentially could be removed or converted to an alternate use. Plan Downtown, which was developed by downtown partner organizations, proposes removal of the elevated roadway and creation of a greenway connecting to Buffalo Bayou. Other groups, such as Pierce Elevated Park and Pierce Sky Park, have proposed keeping the elevated structure and converting it to a signature linear park."

Edited February 24 by Houston19514

[bookey23]

NHHIP (txdot.gov)

 

If you scroll down to the interactive map, the entirety of the Pierce Elevated is currently scheduled to remain standing. Obviously this is all very up in the air and no concrete plans have been made, but I'm just telling you the plan for now

[Houston19514]

14 minutes ago, bookey23 said:

NHHIP (txdot.gov)

 

If you scroll down to the interactive map, the entirety of the Pierce Elevated is currently scheduled to remain standing. Obviously this is all very up in the air and no concrete plans have been made, but I'm just telling you the plan for now

I don't see anything on that map that shows a plan to keep the Pierce Elevated standing.  It merely indicates that the area where Pierce Elevated is located will be "Surplus Right of Way". It doesn't state a plan either remove or retain... so TBD. As you said, no concrete plans ;-)