Theater District Master Plan

[H-Town Man]

45 minutes ago, mollusk said:

"It's 50 years old" in and of itself is not a good reason to level a building.  

 

The complaints about Jones Hall pretty much all fall into some category of "it can be fixed."  Seat width and number of aisles?  Modifying that dang near falls into routine maintenance territory.  Modifying the stage, adding restrooms, changing stairs to ramps, replacing the ceiling... none of that is exactly rocket science, and all of it can be done for a lot less in both time and money than starting over from scratch - if you want to see how, just look one block to the northwest towards the Alley,

 

Age in and of itself was not the argument I gave - how quickly did you skim my posts? My argument is that it's not worth spending $200 million to renovate a building that was never considered that great. $200 million is not "routine maintenance," and not dang near it, either. Please respond to this argument, not straw man arguments. The Alley renovation cost $46.5 million, which makes it a rather poor analogy.

 

I even think $400 million is an overestimate on new construction. The AT&T Performing Arts Center in Dallas cost $354 million in 2009, and that was for four venues - the Winspear Opera House alone is a much larger building than a symphony hall. Factoring in construction cost inflation, I would imagine that for $275 million, $300 million tops, we could get something much better than Jones Hall. A dedicated symphony hall, not a multi-purpose auditorium.

 

Edited October 20, 2016 by H-Town Man

[Houston19514]

I think you're making unwarranted assumptions on what can and cannot be accomplished in a remodeling of an existing structure.  It is instructive that the New York Philharmonic chose the same path for a building of similar vintage.  I don't know the details of the decision-making process, but I do know (because I read the articles), that the Houston Symphony and Society for Performing Arts spent a long time studying the possibility of building an all-new structure (and I think it's fair to say that the assumption from the beginning of the process was that the Houston Symphony would be building new).  After years of careful examination, they came to the conclusion that a major refurbishment would be the best route.  I would be interested in learning more about the process of getting to that decision, but I have complete faith, particularly in the Symphony, that the people making the decision did not do so lightly and have every intention of delivering a first-class, dedicated symphony hall.

 

And the $200 Million is not even a real number.  Note that the article said It could cost as much as $200 Million.  My impression is they are not even close to the point where they can come up with a meaningful estimate of the cost.

 

PS  'Regarding the factoid that the Dallas Symphony consistently sells more tickets than ours:  I have not been able to find any information either way.  If you can find any sources, I'd love to see them.

Edited October 20, 2016 by Houston19514

[Houston19514]

Ennead Architects are working on the plans for the refurbishment of Jones Hall.

[H-Town Man]

9 minutes ago, Houston19514 said:

I think you're making unwarranted assumptions on what can and cannot be accomplished in a remodeling of an existing structure.  It is instructive that the New York Philharmonic chose the same path for a building of similar vintage.  I don't know the details of the decision-making process, but I do know (because I read the articles), that the Houston Symphony and Society for Performing Arts spent a long time studying the possibility of building an all-new structure (and I think it's fair to say that the assumption from the beginning of the process was that the Houston Symphony would be building new).  After years of careful examination, they came to the conclusion that a major refurbishment would be the best route.  I would be interested in learning more about the process of getting to that decision, but I have complete faith, particularly in the Symphony, that the people making the decision did not do so lightly and have every intention of delivering a first-class, dedicated symphony hall.

 

PS  'Regarding the factoid that the Dallas Symphony consistently sells more tickets than ours:  I have not been able to find any information either way.  If you can find any sources, I'd love to see them.

 

This is a great example of why most arguments on HAIF don't need to be arguments. If you had simply mentioned that, from what you've read (maybe with a link), they spent a long time exploring new construction, that would have been welcome information. Then we could move to speculating (or digging to find out) why they would have ruled out this option.

 

Likewise, the comparison with the NY Philharmonic is potentially fruitful. I think the age part of the analogy is sound, although I would point out that the NY Philharmonic was built as a dedicated symphony hall with a very high budget, and that it is an architectural landmark in a way that Jones isn't. Still, I would be interested in what else you could tell us about this.

 

As for your challenge to produce proof that the Meyerson sells more tickets, this is something I recall reading during the symphony's financial troubles in the early 00's. I doubt I could find a link from that long ago. You are welcome to disbelieve if you wish, but I can't imagine what you think my motive would be in making it up.

[H-Town Man]

Also, which assumption regarding renovation that I'm making do you think is unwarranted? My assumptions are essentially twofold:

 

1. Major renovations generally offer less bang for the buck than new construction, due to the constraints of working around an existing structure.

2. It is very challenging, perhaps unprecedented, to transform a building that was never considered a great architectural (or acoustical) landmark into one that is. This goes back to my analogy about investing money into the old Chevy. You can make it better, but if you want a Mercedes, buy a Mercedes.

 

[nativehoustonion]

Jones hall has already renovated.  It is a beautiful building. Who cares about Dallas?  Houston has more opera, symphony, museums that Dallas will not have.  I love when they have the free opera at Herman Park.  It's so fun eating food and sit back and watch it.  Dallas has nothing like that.  A friend of mine came down from Dallas to visit the the Menil and love it!  And the expansion of the Museum of Fine Arts. 

[H-Town Man]

36 minutes ago, Houston19514 said:

 

And the $200 Million is not even a real number.  Note that the article said It could cost as much as $200 Million.  My impression is they are not even close to the point where they can come up with a meaningful estimate of the cost.

 

 

I just saw that you added this in your last edit. Yes, it is true, it merely said it "could cost as much as." But these types of projects typically run to the higher estimates rather than the lower estimates, over budget rather than under budget. (I suppose you'll now ask to see data supporting this assertion...)

 

Again though, I'm just trying to have a discussion here. Yeah sure, $200 is not a final number, but it's the best number we have for the purposes of discussion. You seem to have lawyer's obsession with combat over details, for what reason I don't know.

 

[H-Town Man]

6 minutes ago, nativehoustonion said:

Jones hall has already renovated.  It is a beautiful building. Who cares about Dallas?  Houston has more opera, symphony, museums that Dallas will not have.  I love when they have the free opera at Herman Park.  It's so fun eating food and sit back and watch it.  Dallas has nothing like that.  A friend of mine came down from Dallas to visit the the Menil and love it!  And the expansion of the Museum of Fine Arts. 

 

It should be incredibly obvious that my intention was never to make general arguments about Houston being better or worse than Dallas. I'm using the Meyerson as a specific example of what could be achieved by building a new concert hall rather than renovating the one we have. Please read more carefully.

 

[Houston19514]

39 minutes ago, H-Town Man said:

As for your challenge to produce proof that the Meyerson sells more tickets, this is something I recall reading during the symphony's financial troubles in the early 00's. I doubt I could find a link from that long ago. You are welcome to disbelieve if you wish, but I can't imagine what you think my motive would be in making it up.

 

Don't take yourself so seriously.  No one suggested you made it up.  Sheesh.

 

I have not been able to find any attendance numbers for the two symphonies per se, but I did find attendance numbers for the two performance halls.

 

Meyerson claims 912 concerts, rehearsals, tours, classes, meetings and special events throughout the year, bringing 255,383 patrons to various events.

 

Jones Hall claims that it entertains more than 400,000 visitors at some 250 events annually.

 

Edited October 20, 2016 by Houston19514

[H-Town Man]

Just now, Houston19514 said:

 

Don't take yourself so seriously.  No one suggested you made it up.  Sheesh.

 

I have not been able to find any attendance numbers for the two symphonies, but I did find attendance numbers for the two performance halls, which is of course what we are really talking about.

 

Meyerson claims 912 concerts, rehearsals, tours, classes, meetings and special events throughout the year, bringing 255,383 patrons to various events.

 

Jones Hall claims that it entertains more than 400,000 visitors at some 250 events annually.

 

 

Interesting numbers, although highly dependent on the number of different organizations using the hall and the organizations' willingness to do ticket giveaways, etc. I remember when I taught high school in Dallas, the school had free symphony tickets to give away on a frequent basis. Houston's symphony does this too, of course.

 

I did try to find where I read that, but when you search "Houston Dallas symphony ticket sales" or similar, you mostly get current box-office related links. FWIW, I found a Texas Monthly article from 2001 comparing the two orchestras, in which Hans Graf was mentioned as hoping that Houston would eventually build a new hall with better acoustics. I also found a Dallas Morning News article by Scott Cantrell comparing the two cities' venues, in which he says that the Wortham has slightly better acoustics than the Winspear, but that the Meyerson is far better than Jones Hall acoustically. Again, just circumstantial evidence.

 

[Houston19514]

19 minutes ago, H-Town Man said:

 

I just saw that you added this in your last edit. Yes, it is true, it merely said it "could cost as much as." But these types of projects typically run to the higher estimates rather than the lower estimates, over budget rather than under budget. (I suppose you'll now ask to see data supporting this assertion...)

 

Again though, I'm just trying to have a discussion here. Yeah sure, $200 is not a final number, but it's the best number we have for the purposes of discussion. You seem to have lawyer's obsession with combat over details, for what reason I don't know.

 

 

Dude, you are off to the races to condemn this project based in large part on the $200 million number.  I thought it was useful to point out that the number was just thrown out there based on almost nothing.  Of course projects often come in above estimates or budgets, but we don't even have anything like an estimate or budget yet.

[Houston19514]

1 minute ago, H-Town Man said:

 

Interesting numbers, although highly dependent on the number of different organizations using the hall and the organizations' willingness to do ticket giveaways, etc. I remember when I taught high school in Dallas, the school had free symphony tickets to give away on a frequent basis. Houston's symphony does this too, of course.

 

I did try to find where I read that, but when you search "Houston Dallas symphony ticket sales" or similar, you mostly get current box-office related links. FWIW, I found a Texas Monthly article from 2001 comparing the two orchestras, in which Hans Graf was mentioned as hoping that Houston would eventually build a new hall with better acoustics. I also found a Dallas Morning News article by Scott Cantrell comparing the two cities' venues, in which he says that the Wortham has slightly better acoustics than the Winspear, but that the Meyerson is far better than Jones Hall acoustically. Again, just circumstantial evidence.

 

 

I don't think you'll find anyone worth talking to who would disagree that the Meyerson has better  acoustics than Jones Hall.   That is a huge part of the reason they started looking at building a new venue in the first place and is one of the driving forces behind this refurbishment project.

[H-Town Man]

Just now, Houston19514 said:

 

Dude, you are off to the races to condemn this project based in large part on the $200 million number.  I thought it was useful to point out that the number was just thrown out there based on almost nothing.  Of course projects often come in above estimates or budgets, but we don't even have anything like an estimate or budget yet.

 

I feel like you must be personally related to someone working on this project, as you seem so sensitive in its defense. My motivation in this thread is that I have long wished for a better symphony hall for Houston, and I see this moment as the best opportunity, probably for decades, of getting that. And so I am advocating for a new hall.

 

[Houston19514]

15 hours ago, H-Town Man said:

 

Obviously it would take longer to raise $400 million than $200 million. With the oil downturn, it would probably have to wait a few years. But you'd be getting a magnificent hall that could be a landmark, and that would have a 50-75 year life expectancy.  Here's one of your unwarranted assumptions, to-wit:  we won't be getting a magnificent hall that could be a landmark.

 

With the Jones, you've got something that will never be a gorgeous landmark like the Meyerson, is already 50 years old, and you're paying all this money to give it another 25 years of being good but not great.   Here's another unwarranted assumption, wrapped in a personal opinion.  IMO, the exterior is every bit as gorgeous of a landmark as the Meyerson, in fact more so.  Jones Hall has more of a classical, timeless appeal.  The Meyerson practically screams 1990 IM Pei.  (And interestingly, they both won the same award from the American Institute of Architects.) The unwarranted assumption:  that the refurbished hall will be "good but not great."

 

Ive read in the past that the Dallas Symphony consistently sells more tickets than ours, despite not being as good a symphony. Not hard to see why. Someone who isn't a music lover would take a date to the Meyerson because it's such a stunning place. That person would not take a date to Jones.  As already demonstrated, this seems to be false.  It's a very Dallasy notion to think that the Meyerson would sell more tickets because it is flashier; but in this case it appears to not have worked out that way.

 

It was built at a time when Houston was still a large regional city rather than what we are now, when it was comparable to Baltimore or Milwaukee, and we had to make it multi-purpose because we couldn't afford a pure symphony hall that didn't accommodate our other organizations. That necessarily involves compromise. Now we can build something first rate. Let the Chevy go and put the money towards a Mercedes.  The same unwarranted assumption again:  that refurbished Jones Hall cannot be first rate.

 

Edited October 20, 2016 by Houston19514

[Houston19514]

16 hours ago, H-Town Man said:

The point of the Meyerson comparison was, wouldn't it be better to build a magnificent new hall than to keep overhauling an old one that nobody really loves?

 

I dispute your assumption that nobody really loves Jones Hall.  The article that kicked off this conversation included several quotes from several people who clearly love Jones Hall. The organizations that are housed in it clearly have a lot of love for it; hence they have decided to go the route of refurbishing, rather than abandoning and replacing.

 

to coin a phrase, How quickly did you skim the Chronicle article?  ;-)

[H-Town Man]

 

2 minutes ago, Houston19514 said:

 

I dispute your assumption that nobody really loves Jones Hall.  The article that kicked off this conversation included several quotes from several people who clearly love Jones Hall. The organizations that are housed in it clearly have a lot of love for it; hence they have decided to go the route of refurbishing, rather than abandoning and replacing.

 

to coin a phrase, How quickly did you skim the Chronicle article?  ;-)

 

Ok, people who work there, have gone to it over the years have a certain sentimental love for it, the way I love the house I grew up in. It's not a landmark beyond the Houston metro. Most people you would talk to in the Houston metro would agree with what I've been saying - good, but not great. We can do better.

 

[H-Town Man]

29 minutes ago, Houston19514 said:

Obviously it would take longer to raise $400 million than $200 million. With the oil downturn, it would probably have to wait a few years. But you'd be getting a magnificent hall that could be a landmark, and that would have a 50-75 year life expectancy.  Here's one of your unwarranted assumptions, to-wit:  we won't be getting a magnificent hall that could be a landmark.

 

With the Jones, you've got something that will never be a gorgeous landmark like the Meyerson, is already 50 years old, and you're paying all this money to give it another 25 years of being good but not great.   Here's another unwarranted assumption, wrapped in a personal opinion.  IMO, the exterior is every bit as gorgeous of a landmark as the Meyerson, in fact more so.  Jones Hall has more of a classical, timeless appeal.  The Meyerson practically screams 1990 IM Pei.  (And interestingly, they both won the same award from the American Institute of Architects.) The unwarranted assumption:  that the refurbished hall will be "good but not great."

 

Ive read in the past that the Dallas Symphony consistently sells more tickets than ours, despite not being as good a symphony. Not hard to see why. Someone who isn't a music lover would take a date to the Meyerson because it's such a stunning place. That person would not take a date to Jones.  As already demonstrated, this seems to be false.  It's a very Dallasy notion to think that the Meyerson would sell more tickets because it is flashier; but in this case it appears to not have worked out that way.

 

It was built at a time when Houston was still a large regional city rather than what we are now, when it was comparable to Baltimore or Milwaukee, and we had to make it multi-purpose because we couldn't afford a pure symphony hall that didn't accommodate our other organizations. That necessarily involves compromise. Now we can build something first rate. Let the Chevy go and put the money towards a Mercedes.  The same unwarranted assumption again:  that refurbished Jones Hall cannot be first rate.

 

"Dallasy notion"? Your stat on total annual attendance didn't prove anything, as you seem to think. If you can find a stat on actual symphony ticket sales (not ticket giveaways to fill seats), that might mean something. Jones Hall seats 50% more people, for one thing. It is used by other organizations besides the symphony. It would be like saying that the Astrodome was a more successful baseball venue than Minute Maid Park, and then pointing to total annual attendance including rodeos, monster truck rallies, and all other events there, and ignoring its much larger seating capacity. Show me Astros ticket revenue at both places and then we'll talk. Really, you don't have to believe me when I said that I remembered reading this, but your counterargument is embarrassing.

 

As for my "unwarranted assumptions," obviously I cannot prove that a renovated Jones Hall could not suddenly become a great piece of architecture with world class acoustics. I'm just making the argument, I don't think it can. Yeah, it's an assumption, but I don't think an "unwarranted" one. Show me some concert halls that were somewhat sentimentally admired and taken care of local landmarks in their cities, whose own music directors wished they could eventually be replaced, which then suddenly after 50 years had gone by were renovated into acoustical and architectural jaw-droppers. Then you can say my assumption is "unwarranted." Until then, I think my assumption is pretty good.

 

Edited October 20, 2016 by H-Town Man

[H-Town Man]

Comment removed - too argumentative. Ready to let this one go, or hear other opinions.

 

Edited October 20, 2016 by H-Town Man

[Subdude]

I think a thorough renovation could work for Jones Hall, just like how NYC is going to gut and refurbish Avery Fisher/Geffen Hall (NY Philharmonic).  I would love to see a splashy new building, but that doesn't seem to be in the cards.  The Houston Symphony certainly deserves to have a world-class hall, but Jones Hall doesn't seem to be that fundamentally flawed.

 

Unfortunately Houston doesn't seem to have a very good track record when it comes to performing arts venues.  The Wortham and Hobby Centers are both pretty sad imo, the former in particular showing the effects of scrimping on the budget when it was built in the 1980s. 

 

 

[Urbannizer]

http://www.kobrienarchitect.com/project-page-houston-pac

 

This project is a proposal for the renovation of Jones Hall for the Performing Arts, located at the intersection of Louisiana and Capital Streets in the downtown core.  The design envisioned the transformation of the introverted structure with a new public forum and transparent entry lobby which wraps through the existing structure.  A new upper level adds needed public and administrative program space to the venue.  This public promenade terminates in a planted roofscape with views of the Houston skyline.  Across the street, the existing park is recreated as a public outdoor performance venue, serving as visual and programmatic counterpoint to the concert hall.

 

 

 

 

[Urbannizer]

Jones Hall renovations thread merged 

[Tumbleweed_Tx]

If they want to close off Louisiana St at night for this, they're going to need some of these things.

It's a hydraulic road block in Amsterdam. When they want to close roads to vehicle traffic, these pop out of the ground about 3 feet.
Amsterdam Girlfriend Nina said she saw one lift a car off the ground... lol

[tigereye]

20 hours ago, Urbannizer said:

http://www.kobrienarchitect.com/project-page-houston-pac

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I wonder what Ennead Architects has come up with? 

 

Some details (windows, upper level) from this proposal match Ennead's previous statement on the project. 

 

http://www.houstontx.gov/planning/HistoricPres/docs_pdfs/Jones-Hall_2016_ennead_10.18.16.pdf

[Urbannizer]

https://www.virtualbx.com/construction-preview/24950-houston-s-jones-plaza-targets-for-major-redevelopment.html

 

Houston (Harris County) - The Houston First Corporation has issued a Request for Qualifications for the redesign of downtown's Jones Plaza.

 

Houston First Corp. (HFC) is seeking responses from experienced urban design firms, landscape architects or architects "capable of creating an inspired, iconic, accessible and welcoming design for the reconstruction of Jones Plaza."

 

The 1.5-acre public plaza is in the heart of the Theater District. HFC could budget as much as $18 million for the Plaza's redesign.

HFC will first receive Statement of Qualifications from competing firms. The five finalists will be invited to prepare and participate in a preliminary design concept presentation for final selection.The five top-ranked firms will each receive a stipend of $5,000 and a copy of the visioning document for their participation.

 

The redesign of the Plaza is one of the short-term projects identified for implementation in the Theater District master plan.

 

The SOQ submissions are due September 5. Questions concerning the RFQ must be in before noon of August 21.

[H-Town Man]

Anyone got a photo of the old Jones Plaza? Subdude?

 

[Ross]

6 hours ago, H-Town Man said:

Anyone got a photo of the old Jones Plaza? Subdude?

 

As I recall, it was just a flat area, the roof of the underground parking, with steps on each side, and some trees around the edges. We went there a lot in the 90's for Party on the Plaza on Thursdays.

[Urbannizer]

Bagby Street Improvements

 

http://www.downtowntirz.com/projects/

 

Through Design Phase I, the Authority is working to analyze the Bagby Street corridor in terms of existing and future traffic conditions such that the Authority can consider future capital improvement projects to reconstruct the roadway and associated infrastructure within the right-of-way. Once the traffic impact analysis and preliminary engineering study are complete, the Authority intends to procure for an engineering and design consultant for Phase II.

 

As a component of this project, the Authority and the City of Houston General Services Department will create a development plan that reimagines the west side of Downtown to better support core civic functions and establishes a framework for future mobility, government, commercial and residential redevelopment.

The total project budget is $21,500,000.

 

 

 

 

[Urbannizer]

Rios Clementi Hale Studios will redesign Jones Plaza 

 

https://www.houstonfirst.com/static/media/uploads/attachments/agenda_-_3.15.18_hfc_board_post.docx

 

http://www.rchstudios.com/

[j_cuevas713]

5 hours ago, Urbannizer said:

Rios Clementi Hale Studios will redesign Jones Plaza 

 

https://www.houstonfirst.com/static/media/uploads/attachments/agenda_-_3.15.18_hfc_board_post.docx

 

http://www.rchstudios.com/

A little disappointed that a local designer wasn't chosen for this but oh well. 

[pablog]

Renderings of Jones Plaza from today’s announcement.