scary new changes in the earth's eco-system

[TJones]

Red, Ahem....... http://www.cbc.ca/news/story/2003/03/11/ice_water030311.html

Now, I do realize that parts of Lake Ontario freeze up to 30% every year, I also just saw a spot on GMA the other day about how the Canadian Geese can't find places to land in the water because of the freezing over of the lakes. I have been trying to find the article, but have been unsuccessful thus far.

[houstonmacbro]

As I've always understood, 'global warming' (natural, man-made, heating sun/solar system theory ... whatever ...) is going to cause more extremes ... not just heat, but more extremes in cold, dry, hot, wet, etc.

I referenced the hotter sun theory in my last post. Here is some more on that if anyone's interested:

The truth about global warming - it's the Sun that's to blame

By Michael Leidig and Roya Nikkhah

Last Updated: 11:15pm BST 17/07/2004

Global warming has finally been explained: the Earth is getting hotter because the Sun is burning more brightly than at any time during the past 1,000 years, according to new research.

A study by Swiss and German scientists suggests that increasing radiation from the sun is responsible for recent global climate changes.

Full article here: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml.../ixnewstop.html

[RedScare]

Red, Ahem....... http://www.cbc.ca/news/story/2003/03/11/ice_water030311.html

Umm....why are you quoting a 4 year old article?

[TJones]

Umm....why are you quoting a 4 year old article?

Because you have to wait 6 more years for the lakes to freeze over again.

I do like this story however. http://abcnews.go.com/Technology/wireStory?id=2862598

Believe it or not I agree with Gore's, "the Earth has a fever." outlook. I think the same thing, but it is a natural fever, not a manmade one, and I believe the Earth will heal itself, just like it did in the 1930's.

[RedScare]

Because you have to wait 6 more years for the lakes to freeze over again.

Actually, parts of the lakes generally freeze every year. Lake Erie, being the shallowest, freezes 90% most years, and 100% often. Onatario, the source of this snowstorm, generally freezes 25% to 50%, and, as you stated, 100% every 10 years or so. Frozen lakes greatly inhibit lake effect snow, since the ice stops the evaporation of water from the lake. The fact that it has not frozen at all this year means that there is much more water surface available to evaporate and produce lake effect snow. The reason the lake has not frozen is because this winter has been warmer than usual.

BTW, you might also be interested in knowing that warmer air produces more snow than extremely cold air, since extremely cold air has less water holding capacity.

Now, it is important to note that I am in no way blaming a localized lake effect phenomenon like this snowstorm on Global Warming. However, it is amusing that you are pointing to a weather phenomenon like this as SUPPORT for your theory, when in fact, it is caused by WARMER temperatures, not colder.

You know, when none other than GW Bush and Exxon-Mobil acknowledge the threat of Global Warming in a span of 2 weeks, one would be tempted to think that there may be more to this than meets the eye. But, I guess until Rush Limbaugh says so, it will always be junk science to some.

[TJones]

Very strange Red, I had actually edited before your recent post, that I knew that generally about 30% of Lake Ontario freezes every year, and that I saw a GMA spot about Canadian Geese that were having trouble migrating or were in trouble because of some other lake freezing over that is in the migratory pattern. It didn't transfer over on the edit though. Weird.

[dbigtex56]

I grew up on the shores of Lake Ontario, and cannot recall the lake's surface ever freezing shore-to-shore. I may be mistaken, but certainly it's not as frequent as every 10 years.

My father remembered the lake freezing during an especially brutal cold snap in (I think) 1934 - but that was an exceptional event.

Funny that you should mention Canada (not Canadian) geese. In recent years the winters have been so mild in upstate New York that large populations have become full-time residents, and don't bother flying south for the winter. Local residents are less than delighted, because the geese are quite talkative and have filthy personal habits.

[Subdude]

Headlines in today's Houston Chronicle:Exxon Mobile has no more doubts on warming

"Big Oil behemoth Exxon Mobil Corp. has dropped any pretense of questioning whether global warming is real. Now the company is seeking to position itself as an active player in efforts to lower greenhouse gases."

The evidence seems compelling.

Interesting, but they seem to be talking out of both sides of their mouth, as it were.

Scientists offered cash to dispute climate study

Ian Sample, science correspondent

Friday February 2, 2007

The Guardian

Scientists and economists have been offered $10,000 each by a lobby group funded by one of the world's largest oil companies to undermine a major climate change report due to be published today.

Letters sent by the American Enterprise Institute (AEI), an ExxonMobil-funded thinktank with close links to the Bush administration, offered the payments for articles that emphasise the shortcomings of a report from the UN's Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC).

The UN report was written by international experts and is widely regarded as the most comprehensive review yet of climate change science. It will underpin international negotiations on new emissions targets to succeed the Kyoto agreement, the first phase of which expires in 2012. World governments were given a draft last year and invited to comment.

Link to full article

And another

[TheNiche]

Headlines in today's Houston Chronicle:Exxon Mobile has no more doubts on warming

"Big Oil behemoth Exxon Mobil Corp. has dropped any pretense of questioning whether global warming is real. Now the company is seeking to position itself as an active player in efforts to lower greenhouse gases."

The evidence seems compelling.

Not really. Big business has just recognized that regulation is inescapable. The GW religion has won too many converts too quickly, and has too much momentum. In our overly polarized society, big biz can either be portrayed as an evil scourge of mankind, to be taxed, regulated, even nationalized, or it can try to roll with the punches, gain a seat at the negotiating table, and minimize the damage...and in many cases, undermine those competitors that fail to recognize the solution to this political game. That is what it is, really, is a game. Analogous to the prisoners' dilemma.

There was an article in the WSJ a week or so ago that went into some depth on how various stakeholders are planning for a future where GW regulation is inevitable. It went into some depth on how power companies with various portfolios of plant types are conspiring to try to screw their competition. Coal vs. natural gas, for instance, will likely be a bloodbath, where the only winners are politicians' campaign funds.

[TJones]

Interesting, but they seem to be talking out of both sides of their mouth, as it were.

Link to full article

And another

Subdude, you know as well as I do, that it is all about money. They will spend it, and lots of it, in order to make it. Now, if they can get reputable scientists who don't believe in Global Warming, and can prove evidence to the contrary, then "Big Oil" can argue that the way they currently conduct business is in no way harming the enviroment or the people and living creatures in it. I think they find it neccessary though to do more than their share as they make billions 10x over off of our dependency for their product, and they have proven in the past with horrible tragedies like Valdez, that they are willing to do as much as they can to insure things like Valdez won't happen again, and if they can find a better, safer way to do business, and to get the public to accept them, then I think they are willing to try it, as long as it is "Cost Effective" for them, and doesn't cut into their pocketbooks too much. You know ?

[Subdude]

Subdude, you know as well as I do, that it is all about money. They will spend it, and lots of it, in order to make it. Now, if they can get reputable scientists who don't believe in Global Warming, and can prove evidence to the contrary, then "Big Oil" can argue that the way they currently conduct business is in no way harming the enviroment or the people and living creatures in it. I think they find it neccessary though to do more than their share as they make billions 10x over off of our dependency for their product, and they have proven in the past with horrible tragedies like Valdez, that they are willing to do as much as they can to insure things like Valdez won't happen again, and if they can find a better, safer way to do business, and to get the public to accept them, then I think they are willing to try it, as long as it is "Cost Effective" for them, and doesn't cut into their pocketbooks too much. You know ?

Of course, and they are certainly free to spend their money on PR to disparage science that they might feel threaten their business. My point was only that it was funny to see them trying to play both ends of the field.

[TJones]

Of course, and they are certainly free to spend their money on PR to disparage science that they might feel threaten their business. My point was only that it was funny to see them trying to play both ends of the field.

Right, I agree, but I am not saying that they find scientists to "pay off" that would discredit themselves. I am talking about paying scientist for REAL evidence, or perhaps even "theories" just like the Global Warming believers theorize all the time. It would be tit for tat. I am not pro-Big Oil either, I am just Pro-No such thing as Global Warming.

[Guest Marty]

House hearing on " warming of the planet" cancel after snow and icestorm

[houstonmacbro]

Why is this scary? Well, millions of bees are disappearing (not just dying according to the video I watched), scientists don't really know why (doesn't seem like previous times), and our crops still depend on bees to pollinate them in large part.

Notice I didn't mention global warming ... but I did mention 'scary'.

****

Mysterious ailment killing off honey bees.

By GENARO C. ARMAS

STATE COLLEGE, Pa. Feb 14, 2007 (AP)

[musicman]

House hearing on " warming of the planet" cancel after snow and icestorm

how ironic! LOL

[Guest Marty]

Notice I didn't mention global warming ... but I did mention 'scary'.

****

Yes, that is a little scary this could have a big impact on the economy unless they want to pollinate the flowers by hand which is impossible. It's amazing what a little insect can do.

[houstonmacbro]

Bolivian weird weather

Feb. 13 - Bolivia is being affected by floods, frosts and drought all at the same time.

Video article here:

Maybe not 'scary' but ... interesting

NE Blanketed by Severe Weather

Video article here: http://www.reuters.com/news/video/videoStory?videoId=7792

[Heights2Bastrop]

House hearing on " warming of the planet" cancel after snow and icestorm

Al Bore had to cancel a speech on GW in Missouri due to the cold weather, too.

[TJones]

"It isn't nice to fool Mother Nature!"

http://www.advertisementave.com/tv/ad.asp?...er&adid=357

[houstonmacbro]

Hehe ... this topic is back ...

Galveston dolphin strandings puzzle officials

By HARVEY RICE

Copyright 2007 Houston Chronicle

GALVESTON -- A large increase in the number of dolphins stranded on beaches in the Galveston-Sabine Pass areas over the last two weeks is puzzling marine mammal experts.

The 35 newborn bottlenose dolphins that washed ashore during the last two weeks is nearly double the number of dolphins stranded during the same period last year in the annual stranding season that runs from January through March, said Heidi Watts, operations coordinator for the Texas Marine Mammal Stranding Network.

Officials are investigating the larger number of strandings and trying to determine why they are confined to the Gavleston-Sabine Pass areas, she said.

"We've looked at every possible thing and we're not seeing anything out of the ordinary," Watts said.

Nearly all of the strandings are newborns found dead on the beach, some with umbilical cords still attached, she said. Others are very young and may have been separated from their mothers and unable to survive on their own.

Most of the dolphins are partially decomposed, indicating that they may have died at sea, Watts said. Necropsies show that some had lung infections and others had parasites that may have caused their deaths, she said.

Full article here: http://chron.com/disp/story.mpl/front/4621995.html

[dbigtex56]

They may not like change or adaptation, but again, it isn't the end of the world, and their spatial locality doesn't matter in the big picture. No one's does, really. It's about humanity...not place.

(the above was part of an attempt at dismissing the importance of mountain snowpacks as a supply of drinking water.)

Per 60 Minutes, 1.5 billion people are dependent on glacial runoff for their drinking water, mostly in Africa, Asia and India. No big deal, right?

[nmainguy]

(the above was part of an attempt at dismissing the importance of mountain snowpacks as a supply of drinking water.)

Per 60 Minutes, 1.5 billion people are dependent on glacial runoff for their drinking water, mostly in Africa, Asia and India. No big deal, right?

I watched that this evening as well and thought of our Niche. Never the less, I have found it to be fruitless to argue with the Niches of the world. The dollar will always over ride humanity, logic, facts and the thousands of scientists who have more experience than any of us will ever have. The Niche will come back and say there's no empirical evidence (when there actually has been empirial evidence) or something wasn't peer reviewed (when in actuality it has been peer reviewed). It's a tedious and pointless battle and really doesn't deserve my time. If he and others were really interested they would do their own research and stop deriding those that have.

My friend houstonmacbro has created an important thread here. He has been sincere and polite and has stood against alot of ridicule: "Oh no! Miniscule changes! The sky is falling, the sky is falling!"; Blatant C & P's from our resident plagerist.

I'm sure most of us would appriciate it if he could be treated with a modicum of respect.

[Guest Marty]

I think this is something to keep a eye on if not for your safety. Post Oak tree's falling without warning.

I notice in the last couple of months that a lot of Post Oak's tree's are uprooting without warning like today down the street a Post Oak tree fell across the road in the Spring area because of too much rain and the new growth many of these trees are over a hundred years old. This is just my observation and it might be a safety hazard to your house or kids playing underneath them.

Hear is what the tree look's like Post Oak

[houstonmacbro]

My friend houstonmacbro has created an important thread here. He has been sincere and polite and has stood against alot of ridicule: "Oh no! Miniscule changes! The sky is falling, the sky is falling!"; Blatant C & P's from our resident plagerist.

I'm sure most of us would appriciate it if he could be treated with a modicum of respect.

Thanks pal, but I'm a big boy. I can take the schoolyard taunts. :closedeyes:

However, there have been more things happening that are weird, but I thought it would be pointless to get shouted down here such as the disappearance of millions of honey bees (colony collapse syndrome --see the post above -- I mean, no or fewer honey bees are gonna mean less crops which is gonna mean higher prices for food items this year), the 80 (or more) tornadoes that recently struck the USA last week, the rogue waves that recently hit S. Africa.

There's more, but I guess those don't count as being 'scary' enough.

[TJones]

Thanks pal, but I'm a big boy. I can take the schoolyard taunts. :closedeyes:

However, there have been more things happening that are weird, but I thought it would be pointless to get shouted down here such as the disappearance of millions of honey bees (colony collapse syndrome --see the post above -- I mean, no or fewer honey bees are gonna mean less crops which is gonna mean higher prices for food items this year), the 80 (or more) tornadoes that recently struck the USA last week, the rogue waves that recently hit S. Africa.

There's more, but I guess those don't count as being 'scary' enough.

Macbro, if you would quit acting like ALL this is just happening right now, you might have something. The truth is, these same events happen every year around the world. Some years worse than others. Do some research and you'll see.

Why not blame Volcanoes and Earthquakes on GW, Could be the the Earth's plates are shifting more because there are more people on the planet ? Maybe Volcanoes are erupting because all the people of the world are pressing down on the Earth's core creating pressure, and the Earth needs to make some new holes in order to release the pressure ?

http://www.volcano.si.edu/reports/usgs/

[ricco67]

After reading about the past weather patterns including the ice ages (one possibly occurring as recently as the 1600-1700's) couldn't it be possible that it's the sun that might be more responsible for our weather patterns to begin with?

Recently there was an article (which I can't find anymore) that the ice seemed to be receding on mars! it is well known that the sun goes through cycles, why shouldn't we suspect that the sun is going through a subtle change that our instruments simply cannot measure due to the sheer volume of energy that our instruments simply cannot measure?

Initially I believed that Human's were responsible for global warming and I do sincerely believe that life on this planet is going to get significantly more harsh over the next few decades, but I'm starting to think that perhaps it's something that may be totally beyond mankind's control to begin with.

This is not to say I don't believe in the environmental movement, but perhaps the bigger picture needs to be looked at.

[CDeb]

The dollar will always over ride humanity, logic, facts and the thousands of scientists who have more experience than any of us will ever have.

It is quite convenient to blame dollar worship while ignoring the other half of science that disagrees with something that you are declaring fact. Don't be so smug in assuming that logic, fact and science are on your side. There is a not-insiginificant portion of the GW community that resembles more Scientology than science.

After reading about the past weather patterns including the ice ages (one possibly occurring as recently as the 1600-1700's) couldn't it be possible that it's the sun that might be more responsible for our weather patterns to begin with?

Recently there was an article (which I can't find anymore) that the ice seemed to be receding on mars! it is well known that the sun goes through cycles, why shouldn't we suspect that the sun is going through a subtle change that our instruments simply cannot measure due to the sheer volume of energy that our instruments simply cannot measure?

HERESY! Off to the Greenish Inquisition for your purification!

[houstonmacbro]

Thanks pal, but I'm a big boy. I can take the schoolyard taunts. :closedeyes:

However, there have been more things happening that are weird, but I thought it would be pointless to get shouted down here such as the disappearance of millions of honey bees (colony collapse syndrome --see the post above -- I mean, no or fewer honey bees are gonna mean less crops which is gonna mean higher prices for food items this year), the 80 (or more) tornadoes that recently struck the USA last week, the rogue waves that recently hit S. Africa.

There's more, but I guess those don't count as being 'scary' enough.

Not sure I ever accused GW of causing any of this ... nor did I imply it ... but hey, if that's what you take away from my posts, so be it.

Actually, the volcano theory you mentioned is kinda neat. I'm always up for a good alternative theory.

Not sure I ever accused GW of causing any of this ... nor did I imply it ... but hey, if that's what you take away from my posts, so be it.

Actually, the volcano theory you mentioned is kinda neat. I'm always up for a good alternative theory.

Also, the solar theory is a good one as well. I've heard in various places (none I care to find right now) that the sun IS heating up and is going through an unexpected solar maximum (I think it is not supposed to happen for a few years, but it is early ...?) anyhow, that could be responsible for a lot of things heating up in the solar system including the earth.

Sounds as good as anything else I've heard, so why not...

[TheNiche]

(the above was part of an attempt at dismissing the importance of mountain snowpacks as a supply of drinking water.)

Per 60 Minutes, 1.5 billion people are dependent on glacial runoff for their drinking water, mostly in Africa, Asia and India. No big deal, right?

Nope.

Behold the glories of globalization! Behold the technology! Behold the mobility! Behold that which makes humans the dominant species: supreme adaptability.

The effects of GW are slow and variable. They provide plenty of time for people to relocate without incurring any major hardship. The best thing we can do to better humanity is to build viable and stable political entities where there is currently tyranny or anarchy and an uncertain political or economic future. After that, the best thing we can do is to promote free trade and the unincumbered flow of labor.

[TheNiche]

I have found it to be fruitless to argue with the Niches of the world. The dollar will always over ride humanity, logic, facts and the thousands of scientists who have more experience than any of us will ever have.

Yeah, what good is science if it can't be used to better humanity in the form of benefits that can be measured in currency and imputed currency equivalents?

The Niche will come back and say there's no empirical evidence (when there actually has been empirial evidence) or something wasn't peer reviewed (when in actuality it has been peer reviewed).

I believe you were referring to the debate over DDT with this comment, but the study that was cited from the Lancet had not been peer reviewed. Please do not use this forum to spread misinformation.

If he and others were really interested they would do their own research and stop deriding those that have.

I have far higher and better uses of my time than to engage myself in original scientific research. I organize the economy as a profession. As a hobby, I am a skeptic--I am but a small part of the movement that calls scientists to account for the quality of their own research. But my focus is typically far less upon the scientists themselves than the media outlets and politicians that so consistently and blatantly misinterpret findings and misinform the public. That, too, is a necessity. To ask a question creates a social good. It creates debate. It may give rise to clarity, or it may at least make it apparent that the water is muddy. In any case, it is personally fulfilling...and so it is what I do.