Earth Quest Adventures

[Mister X]

Obtained stupid loan from stupid lender during stupid year. Foreclosure. Lender absorbed by FDIC. Retail tenants suck, pay sucky rent. Those that advocated HP complain about its design. HP set an example to the city, to investors, and to lenders that will endure for decades to come that downtown retail does not work.

[uNICORN FAIL]

Does anything not suck in your world? You sound bitter.

The point is that Houston Pavilions WAS built. That story is still being written too. NBC Sports is supposedly going to open studios there in the near future. It isn't retail, but its still better than looking at 3 ugly surface lots for the next 20++ years.

Also, you have given a great reason for EarthQuest to stick to it's original plan and for the developers to be patient and find investors that won't skimp - even if that adds a few more years and creates more doubts from the google crowd. No doubt that HP would have been better if they had done that.

BTW, I hear more retail is expected to be part of the new city backed convention hotel near discovery green. Luckily our city leaders do not put much value in your opinion either.

[ANGRY MOB SPOKESMAN FAIL]

At least unicorns are pretty.

Edited April 11, 2012 by Mister X

[Soapboxmom]

http://blogs.houstonpress.com/hairballs/2012/04/earthquest_going_nowhere.php

There appears to be no accountability for the Improvement District, which appears to exist solely to line the pockets of its president, Frank McCrady.

[TheNiche]

Does anything not suck in your world? You sound bitter.

The point is that Houston Pavilions WAS built. That story is still being written too. NBC Sports is supposedly going to open studios there in the near future. It isn't retail, but its still better than looking at 3 ugly surface lots for the next 20++ years.

Yeah, and the retail portion of HP is only getting that office tenant because the City agreed to subsidize NBC with $2 million in cash. So, the City has essentially subsidized the construction of a structure so useless that companies have to be paid to use it. That's a raw deal, it sucks, and it serves no justifiable public purpose. I am bitter that the City has used its scarce resources so irresponsibly. I blame the incompetent leadership.

As for the parking lots being built up sooner...so what? They were prime parcels. It was going to happen eventually.

Also, you have given a great reason for EarthQuest to stick to it's original plan and for the developers to be patient and find investors that won't skimp - even if that adds a few more years and creates more doubts from the google crowd. No doubt that HP would have been better if they had done that.

The longer Pavilions held out, the more scaled back and questionable its design became, and the more of its supporters transitioned to detractors. Sound familiar?

BTW, I hear more retail is expected to be apart of the new city backed convention hotel near discovery green. Luckily our city leaders do not put much value in your opinion either.

[ANGRY MOB SPOKESMAN FAIL]

I heard that more retail is expected to be a part of Discovery Tower. Even though the project was completed, leased, and sold, and retail hasn't been a component, I'm sure that you believe that it is in the works for a future remodel job. Nobody has announced otherwise, after all, and neither observable reality or sound reasoning is an excuse for inferring defeat...am I right? Not even a judge could tell you otherwise!

And, what's that about a being failed mob spokesman? I don't speak for anybody but myself. I'm less popular than Ron Paul.

[Mister X]

Yeah, and the retail portion of HP is only getting that office tenant because the City agreed to subsidize NBC with $2 million in cash. So, the City has essentially subsidized the construction of a structure so useless that companies have to be paid to use it. That's a raw deal, it sucks, and it serves no justifiable public purpose. I am bitter that the City has used its scarce resources so irresponsibly. I blame the incompetent leadership.

As for the parking lots being built up sooner...so what? They were prime parcels. It was going to happen eventually.

The longer Pavilions held out, the more scaled back and questionable its design became, and the more of its supporters transitioned to detractors. Sound familiar?

I heard that more retail is expected to be a part of Discovery Tower. Even though the project was completed, leased, and sold, and retail hasn't been a component, I'm sure that you believe that it is in the works for a future remodel job. Nobody has announced otherwise, after all, and neither observable reality or sound reasoning is an excuse for inferring defeat...am I right? Not even a judge could tell you otherwise!

And, what's that about a being failed mob spokesman? I don't speak for anybody but myself. I'm less popular than Ron Paul.

You constantly miss the point. The point is NOT whether HP is or will ever be a great asset to the city. The point is NOT that people have different opinions as to what would have been the best usage of the 3 parking lots that stood empty for decades. The point is NOT that you are bitter because you think the city's leadership is incompetent.

The point IS that HP EXIST after many people saw it as a lost cause and the people who prematurely wrote it's groundbreaking off for dead - were in FACT dead wrong.

You may be correct (but I don't think so) that HP's delays were responsible for the end product not being all it should have been, but it is also possible that the developers were in so much of a hurry to break ground on the project, when they saw a window of opportunity, that some concessions had to be made. I sincerely hope this does not happen to EarthQuest. If the HP developers had waited another year to break ground - who knows what we would have ended up with, could have been better, could have been worse. ...Eventually? Yes. But it is still nice seeing something done with that property in my lifetime, especially something that is going to house nationally televised sports programming from NBC. House of Blues and Lucky Strike are fun too.

I don't mind continuing this discussion, but as I'm sure someone is about to remind us, this is the wrong thread.

People who are holding out hope for EarthQuest can at least find some comfort in that the HP thread is proof that some people who enjoy professing to be some kind of expert under the shielded, anonymous, safety of the internet have been proven wrong time after time. Maybe that is how Niche became even more unpopular than Ron Paul. I wouldn't be too surprised if this is another one of those times.

Discovery Tower now? Wow. Downtown Rocks! Observable reality and sound reasoning are just great, but nothing beats hard facts. And the hard fact remains (as is evident in the bankruptcy hearings and the latest EMCID town hall meeting) that the EarthQuest project IS moving forward in some capacity - however slow.

For the record, I don't have a problem with what judges say, necessarily. Some judge advised the EMCID not to publicly discuss the EQ project until some questions were answered - I don't have a problem with that at all, I think it is good advice from a person who doesn't have all the answers he wants.

Edited April 12, 2012 by Mister X

[lockmat]

I still think I'm going to need a Houston Chronicle report on this. But so far it does not sound favorable for the developer

In all sincerity MisterX why are you so impassioned to defend earthquest?

[Soapboxmom]

....And the hard fact remains (as is evident in the bankruptcy hearings and the latest EMCID town hall meeting) that the EarthQuest project IS moving forward in some capacity - however slow.

For the record, I don't have a problem with what judges say, necessarily. Some judge advised the EMCID not to publicly discuss the EQ project until some questions were answered - I don't have a problem with that at all, I think it is good advice from a person who doesn't have all the answers he wants.

The project is not moving forward. "Moving forward" is the broken record refrain of Frank McCrady, but it is total nonsense. The missing ingredient is financing for the project. Until 600 million or more realistically closer to 1 billion dollars magically appears, then nothing is going to happen. Don Holbrook was hired in 2007 for the very purpose of fundraising for Earthquest. He came up quite short on that. He did do a fabulous job of lining his own pockets, however. He, Frank McCrady and the gang also blew through tens of thousands of dollars living the millionaire lifestyle while this project was nothing more than artistic renderings. Don Holbrook is melting online about the recent articles, but is not naming the 100s of projects worth billions of dollars that created 50,000 jobs he has bragged of. Subterfuge at its funniest!

[TheNiche]

Swamplot picked up the story today: http://swamplot.com/unraveling-the-new-caney-500-million-dinosaur-theme-park-confidence-game/2012-04-12/

You constantly miss the point. The point is NOT whether HP is or will ever be a great asset to the city. The point is NOT that people have different opinions as to what would have been the best usage of the 3 parking lots that stood empty for decades. The point is NOT that you are bitter because you think the city's leadership is incompetent.

The point IS that HP EXIST after many people saw it as a lost cause and the people who prematurely wrote it's groundbreaking off for dead - were in FACT dead wrong.

You may be correct (but I don't think so) that HP's delays were responsible for the end product not being all it should have been, but it is also possible that the developers were in so much of a hurry to break ground on the project, when they saw a window of opportunity, that some concessions had to be made. I sincerely hope this does not happen to EarthQuest. If the HP developers had waited another year to break ground - who knows what we would have ended up with, could have been better, could have been worse. ...Eventually? Yes.

Reasonable people embraced reasonable doubts regarding Houston Pavilions for two reasons. One of those was that it was taking too long, but the other was that the idea was underwhelming, poorly designed, an inefficient use of land, and that the market did not support all that was proposed. Given the choice between investing in this white elephant or a tried-and-true (very boring) sort of development, no reasonable lender would've picked HP. What was unexpected, was that unreasonable lenders acquired access to capital for a brief window of time...they didn't stay lenders for very long. With HP, though, the developer actually had a track record of getting something similar built and leased. Their story was weak, but it was not inherently dubious. I'm not sure that the same could be said for EQ.

Another part of the HP story was the delay and downsizing, as you mentioned. When it was first proposed, the office market was down and boutique hotels were in favor, so the site plan reflected that. Over the next several years, different types of real estate fluctuated in desirability and performance; hotel occupancy became miserably low. The developer had to keep making modifications to get the mix that was suitable for attracting lenders in that particular moment of time, knowing full well that anything that they actually built would take so long to get built that the mix would probably wind up being sub-optimal whenever they actually finished construction. And then there was a parking constraint that varied according to the mix. Every redesign took time, and all this complexity meant that any little thing that went wrong would affect everything else. There were too many moving parts. (I know this because the developer explained it in person as a speaker at a ULI event that I attended before their financing was lined up. That's right, an out-of-town developer actually spoke to the public that was subsidizing their ridiculous project. ...bizarre, right?) So anyway, it turns out that the project's complexity was what was drawing it out so long...which goes back to that the project was a crappy idea in the first place. And you're mostly right that the developers saw their window of opportunity, made concessions, pulled the trigger, and built us an even crappier idea than anyone had previously thought possible.

So yeah, do think that HP's story has some lessons built into it that can be applied to the EQ proposal. The problem is, comparisons in hindsight seem to make it where HP looked a heck of a lot more credible than EQ has ever been.

But it is still nice seeing something done with that property in my lifetime, especially something that is going to house nationally televised sports programming from NBC. House of Blues and Lucky Strike are fun too.

There's lots of property to have stuff done with. For instance, Fox Sports put their studios in The Woodlands years ago. If they didn't put it in The Woodlands, then they could've put it downtown, Uptown, or in Sugar Land. It was going to be put somewhere, and indeed there are many places. Good for them. [shrug] As for the other two venues, I'm sure that there's a lot of fun that happens there, but bowling with a dress code is ridiculous and a chain-owned performance venue is only taking business from performance venues with a more local flavor.

People who are holding out hope for EarthQuest can at least find some comfort in that the HP thread is proof that some people who enjoy professing to be some kind of expert under the shielded, anonymous, safety of the internet have been proven wrong time after time.

I make lots of comments. I'll get a statement of fact wrong from time to time, but most of the comments are just opinions to begin with. Take them for what they are. For instance, if I believe something is unlikely to get built and it gets built, then I'm neither right or wrong; the unlikely outcome was accounted for as a possibility within the scope of my opinion.

If you want to debate me, debate my reasoning or (better yet) provide an opinion of your own that is supported by reason.

[Mister X]

Lockmat - I defend the project because I like the proposal and I think it is something that will make the Houston area a better place. The impassioned part is because people are trying to get away with making their opinions that the project is completely dead sound like fact - when I know that it isn't. I see no reason to allow the people who only come to this thread with half the facts and opinions formed by the influence of tabloid jouralism to go unchallenged. I never said that the project wasn't going to have problems. My mission at this point is just to keep reminding people that other people are still working to get the project built. This seems to really bother a few people on this forum for some reason. I can not imagine why.

Soapmom - 'Moving forward' are the words used by the person closest to the project. Whether you think so or not, his words come with a little more credibility than google experts or tabloid journalist who can not possibly know what was ever discussed behind closed doors for the last 5 years. No one involved with the EQ project have been formally charged with any misconduct. As of today the most reliable source of what has been going on with EQ comes from EMCID not the tabloids. 'Moving forward' does not automatically mean that tractors are rolling or that 600 million (the number you pulled out of thin air) dollars are committed. It can also mean that potential developers are trying to secure the land - which in fact IS happening. This is what is being determined right now in the courts.

Niche - You seem to be having trouble focusing on the topic of this thread now. HP's specific problems (or merits) are irrelevant to EQ. The only comparison I ever meant to point out is the reaction from the public HAIFers in the years before the project ever broke ground. The HP thread is a great example that demonstrates what people who watch from the outside of a project bring to the table - guesswork, frustration, trolls, flamers, hope, discouragement, facts, lies, innuendo... everything but definitive, indisputable answers and enough information to accurately predict the future. No one saw NBC moving studios into HP on page 21. Personally, I'm glad we are at the stage of HP's development that we are able discuss the merits of its existence. On page 21 of the HP thread we were still discussing IF it was going to happen with several people venting doubts who were ultimately proven wrong - and that is right where we are in the EQ thread. That is the only similarity that I'm really interested in that has anything to do with the topic of this thread.

I DO take your comments for what they are. My opinion of the EQ project is that people are still working to make the project happen. As of 3 weeks ago Frank McCrady said in a public forum that the project was still moving forward and that Contour Entertainment was interested in taking over the project and that if they don't, several other developers were interested in taking over. Decisions regarding property ownership are being work on in the courts. DR Horton is making a bid on the property with special provisions in the contract to allow the west side of the property to be developed into the resort and theme park. Chris Brown of Contour Entertainment said recently that the property in question was their first choice, but other locations in the area were being looked at. - All this has been documented in the tabloids (the same ones that you and soapmom are using to support your opinions) and by what was stated at the latest East Montgomery County town hall meeting. - Now what is so unreasonable about basing an opinion on that?

Edited April 13, 2012 by Mister X

[RedScare]

The posts seem to be getting longer on here. Does that mean something happened, or just the justifications more generalized?

[TheNiche]

I defend the project because I like the proposal and I think it is something that will make the Houston area a better place. The impassioned part is because people are trying to get away with making their opinions that the project is completely dead sound like fact - when I know that it isn't. I see no reason to allow the people who only come to this thread with half the facts and opinions formed by the influence of tabloid jouralism to go unchallenged.

If people like me seem to imply a statement of fact that a project is dead, but our implied facts have turned out to be wrong in the past, and that's how you have concluded that our comments are unreliable, then why are you at all concerned that our comments carry weight? Don't you realize that if you'd stop spewing intellectually dishonest responses to my responses to you, that I'd just shut up for lack of anything to talk about?

The irony is that you are presenting information that you have used to form your opinion that you've obtained from same "tabloid" newspapers that you feel are unreliable. Have you been to any EMCID meetings? Have you spoken to the developers? Have you made any open records requests? Have you obtained courthouse records? I already asked if you'd tried to invest or donate in the project, and you've said that you hadn't. Your sources are our sources. You've connected the dots and formed an opinion, just like have. Our opinions differ, that's all. You're hardly in a position to cite McCrady's vague hearsay as the definitive status of the project.

If you are willing to believe the word of someone you don't know, have never met, and that you've only read about in "tabloids", then maybe you'll believe what I'm about to tell you...from man to man. I've figured out a way to change the color of the sky and tomorrow I will make it be green. I just said so. So there. It's not even hearsay. Now go tell all your friends what I've said, and when they call you out, all you have to do is say that this guy on the internet said so himself. It is a statement of fact, and who are you to question it? I'm "moving forward" with it...or up, down, or sideways, whatever. If I fail to turn the sky green, then you shouldn't lose faith even if your friends taunt you. I'll just keep on working on it and will get it right one day. So you must not give up hope.

Niche - You seem to be having trouble focusing on the topic of this thread now. HP's specific problems (or merits) are irrelevant to EQ. The only comparison I ever meant to point out is the reaction from the public HAIFers in the years before the project ever broke ground.

Yours is not the only relevant comparison to be made between HP and EQ. I made a few (that I think are more valid). They aren't favorable to EQ.

[lockmat]

Lockmat - I defend the project because I like the proposal and I think it is something that will make the Houston area a better place. The impassioned part is because people are trying to get away with making their opinions that the project is completely dead sound like fact - when I know that it isn't. I see no reason to allow the people who only come to this thread with half the facts and opinions formed by the influence of tabloid jouralism to go unchallenged. I never said that the project wasn't going to have problems. My mission at this point is just to keep reminding people that other people are still working to get the project built. This seems to really bother a few people on this forum for some reason. I can not imagine why.

coo

[Mister X]

Niche - Who said I wanted you to stop. I like talking about EarthQuest. Your notorious history of unreliable statements and reputation of being wrong all the time actually give me comfort on this issue.

Frank McCrady has been speaking on behalf of the project since day one. His statements carry more weight than anyone here. As of today, McCrady's words are the closest thing we have to a definitive status of the project.

There is nothing dishonest when I say that as of 3 weeks ago Frank McCrady said in a public forum that the project was still moving forward and that Contour Entertainment was interested in taking over the project and that if they don't, several other developers were interested in taking over. Decisions regarding property ownership are being work on in the courts. DR Horton is making a bid on the property with special provisions in the contract to allow the west side of the property to be developed into the resort and theme park. Chris Brown of Contour Entertainment said recently that the property in question was their first choice, but other locations in the area were being looked at. I think it is intellectually dishonest of you to suggest otherwise. Soapmom posted all those links for us and every word can be verified.

I don't have a problem when the tabloids quote people who are close to the project and I hear them saying the very same things with my own ears. You can hear McCrady saying that "the EQ project is still moving forward" and explaining the special provisions in the DRHorton bid on the property on the video of the latest town hall meeting.

I do have a problem when the tabloid start inferring that there was corruption when they don't have proof. I also have a problem with articles that read more like editorial than simply reporting facts. Before you were seduced by the dark side of the force, you once told Soapmom that "the media is in the entertainment industry, if you hadn't noticed." (Post #482 of this thread) I agreed with that when you wrote it and I still do. Everything must be taken with a grain of salt. Including everything one reads on internet forums.

You and soapbox don't seem to have any problem repeating your opinions that the project and people behind it are corrupt. So I don't have any problem repeating my assertions that your opinions have not only NOT BEEN PROVED, but there are not even any charges pending. (All 100% true).

Houston Pavillions got built after many at this website professed to be certain that it would not. Now some people are doing the same thing on this thread about the EarthQuest project. It doesn't matter how favorable or unfavorable it is to EQ when your comparisons involve drifting off the topic and start ranting about hotel occupancy in downtown Houston. The projects are not that similar. Only the HAIF threads are.

Edited April 13, 2012 by Mister X

[Mister X]

I think red scare is starting to feel a little ignored. I'm sure someone will get to you eventually.

Edited April 13, 2012 by Mister X

[Soapboxmom]

http://ourtribune.com/article.php?id=13500

The e-mails mentioned are in the solicitations of the unsuspecting marks in Pahrump:

http://www.pahrumpnv.org/images/uploads/downloads/110614_Backup3.pdf

[Mister X]

The Our Tribune is nothing but an editorial opinion tabloid. They find some numbers and then make irresponsible comments on them. I think there were more question marks in that story than periods. If they ever get their questions answered, they won't print them unless it confirms their commentary.

"Although EMCID has strictly complied with The Tribune’s ‘freedom of information’ requests for documents, it routinely fails or refuses to answer questions concerning those same documents".

The Our Tribune motto: Don't let unanswered questions stop you from reporting opinion as fact and building a story on a solid foundation of ASSumption. On the plus side, the Our Tribune comes in very handy when you need to get dog poo off your lawn in a hurry.

Edited April 17, 2012 by Mister X

[Soapboxmom]

Amazing. So, now we are apparently back to Frank McCrady being the authority on all things Earthquest??? So, we juxtpose Frank McCrady and Don Holbrook who are lying and misrepresenting things with the news media and bloggers that are demanding real answers??? <sigh>

[Nate99]

This thing never passed the smell test.

A $500 million greenfield amusement park in the middle of the sticks being pushed by people that have zero track record of success in anything.

[Soapboxmom]

EMCID has the bond expenditures posted:

http://www.emctx.com/about/financial.php

Please note that Don Holbrook, through his LLC, made a whopping $773,963.43 in addition to the money he made from the charity connected to this stalled pipe dream.

Soapboxmom

[Mister X]

The EarthQuest Institute is a not-for-profit organization, NOWHERE has it ever claimed to be a charity. There is a difference - just like there is a difference between reporting facts and reporting opinion.

The Institute (if it ever gets back on track) will employ people and pay salaries. Don't expect them to ask for soapmoxmom's approval when contracts are negotiated.

Edited April 26, 2012 by Mister X

[LTAWACS]

Either way... this thing is way too far away... in the middle of nowhere...

[Soapboxmom]

Lennar Homes has won the auction for the Earthquest property. The bid was $11,850,000. The bank is objecting vigorously to Marlin Atlantis White getting $500,000 out of the sale. That is the same group behind the bankrupt land owners, Whitestone. They are insiders of the debtors and the bank is asking the judge to order that money go to the bank that is out over $19,600,000.

Bank\'s Objections.pdf

Edited April 26, 2012 by Soapboxmom

[Mister X]

Thanks for the comic relief LTAWACS, ultimately we are discussing a theme park, not a chemical plant and this thread could use a little levity to sway it back towards the spirit of which all theme parks aspire to be - just a fun place to hang out for a while.

[Soapboxmom]

The EarthQuest Institute is a not-for-profit organization, NOWHERE has it ever claimed to be a charity. There is a difference - just like there is a difference between reporting facts and reporting opinion.

The Institute (if it ever gets back on track) will employ people and pay salaries. Don't expect them to ask for soapmoxmom's approval when contracts are negotiated.

Are all nonprofit organizations public charities?

Public charities represent a substantial portion of the nonprofit sector, but not all nonprofit organizations are public charities. Public charities receive their tax-exemption under subsection (3) of Section 501©. This privileged status allows donors to make tax-deductible contributions to the organization. The IRS defines these organizations as "charitable" because they serve broad public purposes, including educational, religious, scientific, and the literary activities, among others, as well as the relief of poverty and other public benefit actions.

The Earthquest Institute is a 501 © 3, which is a charitable organization. They are under the Department of the Treasury, Internal Revenue Service Tax Exempt and Government Entities Division.

[Mister X]

I have never seen one thing written by the EarthQuest Institute that said it was anything other than a Not-for-profit.

"Charities and not-for-profit organisations are not the same things."

http://www.hmrc.gov....s/vat/intro.htm

Even still, charities also employ people for their services. Holbrook committed no crime by accepting a job from EQI.

Edited April 26, 2012 by Mister X

[editor]

Soapboxmom and Mister X: Take your bickering to PM or e-mail. This is not the place for the two of you to carry out your personal pissing match.

You both had your posting privileges revoked for five days because of this. Apparently you haven't learned your lessons yet, and they have been revoked again for 14 days.

Perhaps two weeks from now you will have learned to keep this thread on topic. If not, you will have your accounts disabled.

Again, feel free to debate -- but do it via PM. Everyone else is tired of you two.

[Simbha]

I have no interest in getting into the debate regarding EarthQuest. What will happen, will happen. But, as a professional who advises non-profit organizations (along with others), I think it's important to clarify what "501c3" means, so misinformation isn't spread. Per IRS Publication 557...

An organization may qualify for exemption from federal income tax if it is organized and operated for one or more of the following purposes.

• Religious.
  
• Charitable.
  
• Scientific.
  
• Testing for public safety.
  
• Literary.
  
• Educational.
  
• Fostering national or international amateur sports competition.
  
• The prevention of cruelty to children or animals.
  

As previously stated, an organization need not be considered charitable to qualify under Section 501c3. Serving any one of the above functions will allow an organization to qualify for tax-exempt status under this rule.

Edited April 28, 2012 by Simbha

[Muralpainter]

From Your Houston News. More signs of motion, but not necessarily progress.

http://www.yourhoustonnews.com/east_montgomery/news/developers-for-earthquest-friendswood-progress-with-plans/article_56f5c762-8e38-51ee-b5a5-f5757b03b900.html

"The design and artistic license for the park is now in control of Contour Entertainment who recently drafted a letter of intent with the East Montgomery County Improvement District in order to forge ahead with their plans for development."

[Mister X]

This is just another step. Any forward movement, however small is good news. So many people have given up hope for this project and have claimed that the project is dead or about to die, but this story is proof that there are still some people trying to get this park built.

[nervouslaughter]

Here we go...

[LTAWACS]

So... this is dead then, yes?