bachanon Posted November 7, 2006 Share Posted November 7, 2006 sorry, i didn't get that from your comment. i should have asked, "do you think the meth prostitute is some sort of hero for outing haggard?". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
west20th Posted November 7, 2006 Share Posted November 7, 2006 sorry, i didn't get that from your comment. i should have asked, "do you think the meth prostitute is some sort of hero for outing haggard?".No. Do I think Haggard got what he deserved? Yes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bachanon Posted November 7, 2006 Share Posted November 7, 2006 well, good for you. personally, i am not worthy to stand in judgement of anyone other than myself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
musicman Posted November 7, 2006 Share Posted November 7, 2006 .......when you demonize gays in public yet pay for sex with a male prostitute in private-expect to be outed. When you are any number of gay congressmen and women-Rep or Dem or you are the head of the Republican party, expect to be outed when you vote for or advance legislation to deny gays equal rights.They replayed an interview with Diane Sawyer from a few yrs ago with him. I didn't think he was fanatical to the point of where "gays are evil" She asked him whether gays will go to hell and his response was something like "whites, blacks, gays, etc all have an equal chance to go to heaven" I don't think he would even be considered fanatical in my book. That's not demonizing in my book. But I only saw this partial interview so that is all i have to base my opinion on. I hope you would out ANYONE who was denied equal rights, not just gays. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
west20th Posted November 7, 2006 Share Posted November 7, 2006 well, good for you. personally, i am not worthy to stand in judgement of anyone other than myself.I don't judge anyone. That was Haggart's job. It's just my opinion. Sorry if having an opinion offends your self-righteous sensibilities. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
west20th Posted November 7, 2006 Share Posted November 7, 2006 I hope you would out ANYONE who was denied equal rights, not just gays.I don't get what you mean. What equal rights was Haggert denied? If you meant "I hope you would out ANYONE who denies equal rights, not just gays." I would think that would be a given. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bachanon Posted November 7, 2006 Share Posted November 7, 2006 Do I think Haggard got what he deserved? Yes. your opinion sounds like you've passed judgement on haggard. your opinion doesn't offend me at all. it does seem hypocritical coming from someone who wants to be treated without judgement. but that's just my opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
west20th Posted November 7, 2006 Share Posted November 7, 2006 your opinion sounds like you've passed judgement on haggard. your opinion doesn't offend me at all. it does seem hypocritical coming from someone who wants to be treated without judgement. but that's just my opinion. There is a difference between an opinion and passing judgement. And how dare you call me hypocritical based on your screwed up definition of "passing judgement". Like I said before. You are very self-righteous. On one hand telling me not to "judge" and "judging" me yourself on the other. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bachanon Posted November 7, 2006 Share Posted November 7, 2006 where haggert is concerned, i do not feel it is anyone's place to determine what someone "deserves", especially for a moral failure. whether or not his moral failure is that he committed sin, or lives in the closet, or is a hypocrite, it is my opinion that we cannot know what he truly "deserves".i can say i think he is wrong, but i do not think i can say what he deserves. to say he got what he deserves is to assume that we know how severe his infractions are and to have knowledge of who should be punished for what.if i come across as self-righteous, it is unintentional and i apologize.my issue is that the gay community has several important issues on the table nationally, things that are going on in the minds of millions of people, gay and straight. i feel (an opinion, not a personal judgement) it is counter productive and hypocritical for people in the gay community to rejoice over the fall of this (very public, and most likely, closeted gay man). this tells the world that "we eat our own" if you are on the wrong side of the political spectrum. imagine growing up in the evangical world as a gay kid today. not only will your family and church disdain you, but so will the gay community if you hold fast to certain conservative ideals. imagine what the gay kids in haggert's ministry are going through right now? kids who possibly look up to this guy as a spiritual mentor. do you think they would look to the gay community for help or comfort after reading threads like this one?there is a missed opportunity here, on a national scale, to put a different face on the gay community.again, west20th, i did not intend to drag you into a roundabout discussion parsing words. i should have just stated what i was thinking and not personalized it towards you. sorry. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TOMIKA! Posted November 7, 2006 Author Share Posted November 7, 2006 If all goes as predicted, gays will decide the election once again. In 2004 it was the Republicans that reaped the benefits. Now it's the Democrats. How sad that of all the issues that our country is entangled with (wars, environment, big oil, stem cell research), an issue involving gays will probably determine the election. Personally, I'm having the time of my life watching the Republicans try to scurry to deal with all their mishaps lately. What's next, Cheney announces he's a tranny? Actually.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bachanon Posted November 7, 2006 Share Posted November 7, 2006 i just had that image in my mind and now i can't get it out. thanks! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
west20th Posted November 7, 2006 Share Posted November 7, 2006 this tells the world that "we eat our own" if you are on the wrong side of the political spectrum. I think you are seeing this the wrong way (no judging here mind you ). It's not so much that he is on the wrong side of the political spectrum it is that he uses gays as his political and religious whipping boys (and girls). That fact that he himself is gay (or bi) makes it all the more despicable. Yes maybe we shouldn't enjoy his downfall as much as we seem to but in the end what difference does is make. We aren't the villians here. Are you suggesting it was wrong to "out" him? Would it have been better for him to be allowed to continue scamming the church and screwing gay people (no pun intended) for his own political and professional gain? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bachanon Posted November 7, 2006 Share Posted November 7, 2006 I think you are seeing this the wrong way (no judging here mind you ). It's not so much that he is on the wrong side of the political spectrum it is that he uses gays as his political and religious whipping boys (and girls). That fact that he himself is gay (or bi) makes it all the more despicable. Yes maybe we shouldn't enjoy his downfall as much as we seem to but in the end what difference does is make. We aren't the villians here. Are you suggesting it was wrong to "out" him? Would it have been better for him to be allowed to continue scamming the church and screwing gay people (no pun intended) for his own political and professional gain? i think it was wrong for someone in the gay community to out him. that is an opinion. i realize that everyone is overjoyed that there is now another poster boy (haggert) for christian hypocrisy and more subtly, the sentiment that "we are everywhere", "we might even be your pastor". that someone like haggert had motives of political and professional gain would be an opinion i do not share. i've known many evangelical ministers and i've met very few who struck me as users of people for personal gain. i've seen these men and their families sacrifice normal lives and set personal accomplishments aside in order to be a comfort to thousands. i've seen ministers not pursue their personal dreams in order to fulfill what they felt was their Godly responsibility. i've also seen some of these same selfless ministers, in secret, attempt to, if only for a moment, feel like they were in control of their lives and get something on the side. i've read that he didn't harp on the "gay issue" in sermons. i have not seen any sermons or quotes in which he used the "gay issue" to scam the church or screw gay people. in fact, being a preacher does not mean that you are perfect. however, it does hold you to a higher standard and haggert has stepped down because of his actions. i have no animosity towards haggert. i really feel for his family, friends and church. he really mucked it up. i do question the motives of the guy who outed him. it really feels like a preschool tattletale situation, but one that had the attention of the nation for several days. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
houstonmacbro Posted November 8, 2006 Share Posted November 8, 2006 We've all known it for a long time, but are now being slapped in the face (or a$s) with it. How much more can this country take???as i mentioned on another forum, i know several 'republicans' that are really wonderful, decent and open-minded individuals -we just happen to disagree politically. i also know several (republicans) that are gawdawful single-and-small minded. however, i can also say the EXACT same thing for my democrat friends and several that would consider themselves independent.i do not think you can write off a whole section of people through politics, race, sexual preferences, religion, or other criteria.our variety is what makes america a special place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nmainguy Posted November 8, 2006 Share Posted November 8, 2006 NOW can you "come out" and play, Helen? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Marty Posted November 8, 2006 Share Posted November 8, 2006 NOW can you "come out" and play, Helen? What is your obsession with this dude nmainguy is he a creep? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
houstonmacbro Posted November 8, 2006 Share Posted November 8, 2006 it does not help the cause of tolerance or civil issues.don't know about anyone else but i hate the world tolerance. i do not want to be TOLERATED. sounds like "oh well .. since you're here... i GUESS we'll accept you ... but we'd really rather not' ... is there a better word or feeling that can be expressed? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KinkaidAlum Posted November 8, 2006 Share Posted November 8, 2006 not at all. i'm simply stating the perception of the gay community at large is damaged on a national scale when the only mention of a gay man is related to meth and prostitution and bringing down a supposed moral leader. the damage to haggard was self inflicted. no one is to blame but him. however, the damage to the gay community is by association. these are objective statements. i did not intend to finger point. i did intend to analyze the story and the outcome of the story in a way that was not being discussed.I get what you are saying. That said, I couldn't care less what the so-called Christian fundamentalists think of my being gay. I do not seek their acceptance nor do I seek their permission to be. They do not hold the moral compass. I have what I need from my family and friends and those who I come into contact with because I live my life as an openly gay man who happens to own a small business, volunteers for the local neighborhood community center, has a background in social work for adolescents, plays in a basketball league, follows college football, and attends Trinity Episcopal Church on Sundays.Going further, trying to be a role model citizen or a "gay" teacher to people who inherently think you are a sinner, is an exercise in self-mutilation. I do NOT choose to participate in that. I spent many years worrying about what others thought of me. I hid not only from them, but from myself. Well, I came to terms with it without bashing others. I came to terms with it without hiring hustlers. I came to terms with it without using chrystal meth. I came to terms with it without building an empire around demonizing a whole group of people for something as stupid as their sexuality. I came to terms with it without abusing a position of power to flirt with pages. I came to terms with it without the need to enter rehab and tell the world that I was an alcoholic and abused by others. Now, as for trying to provide empathy to Foley or Haggard or any more of their ilk by explaining that they are not alone will do nothing to make the fundamentalists think we are a compassionate community. Instead, they'll just point a finger and tell themselves that we are all drug users, self-haters, and pedophiles. Well, we aren't. I am not about to step forward and say we are because it might change the way someone I don't know thinks about homosexuals by demonstrating a supposed level of compassion. I choose to show my compassion by volunteering at an AIDS clinic, by working on breast cancer research, by being active in my community and volunteering for after school programs and offering internships to local public school kids at my store. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
houstonmacbro Posted November 8, 2006 Share Posted November 8, 2006 preach brutha preach! i admire you and your courage to live your life on your terms and not someone else's opinions or beliefs.we could all learn a great deal by your example. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bachanon Posted November 8, 2006 Share Posted November 8, 2006 don't know about anyone else but i hate the world tolerance. i do not want to be TOLERATED. sounds like "oh well .. since you're here... i GUESS we'll accept you ... but we'd really rather not' ... is there a better word or feeling that can be expressed? it does not help the cause of acceptance and civil issues. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bachanon Posted November 8, 2006 Share Posted November 8, 2006 I get what you are saying. That said, I couldn't care less what the so-called Christian fundamentalists think of my being gay. I do not seek their acceptance nor do I seek their permission to be. They do not hold the moral compass. I have what I need from my family and friends and those who I come into contact with because I live my life as an openly gay man who happens to own a small business, volunteers for the local neighborhood community center, has a background in social work for adolescents, plays in a basketball league, follows college football, and attends Trinity Episcopal Church on Sundays.Going further, trying to be a role model citizen or a "gay" teacher to people who inherently think you are a sinner, is an exercise in self-mutilation. I do NOT choose to participate in that. I spent many years worrying about what others thought of me. I hid not only from them, but from myself. Well, I came to terms with it without bashing others. I came to terms with it without hiring hustlers. I came to terms with it without using chrystal meth. I came to terms with it without building an empire around demonizing a whole group of people for something as stupid as their sexuality. I came to terms with it without abusing a position of power to flirt with pages. I came to terms with it without the need to enter rehab and tell the world that I was an alcoholic and abused by others. Now, as for trying to provide empathy to Foley or Haggard or any more of their ilk by explaining that they are not alone will do nothing to make the fundamentalists think we are a compassionate community. Instead, they'll just point a finger and tell themselves that we are all drug users, self-haters, and pedophiles. Well, we aren't. I am not about to step forward and say we are because it might change the way someone I don't know thinks about homosexuals by demonstrating a supposed level of compassion. I choose to show my compassion by volunteering at an AIDS clinic, by working on breast cancer research, by being active in my community and volunteering for after school programs and offering internships to local public school kids at my store. i admire your courage and your active demonstration of compassion. perhaps it is with localized efforts such as yours that will eventually swing the national pendulum of opinion on gay issues in a more positive direction. my original response was to the uproar of glee within the gay community over bringing this guy down/his fall from grace. rather than rejoicing at the sad nature of haggert's actions, it would be wise (IMHO) to not become hypocrites in the process. hate is hate. i knew you were smart kinkaidalum, but your a really good guy too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
musicman Posted November 8, 2006 Share Posted November 8, 2006 rather than rejoicing at the sad nature of haggert's actions, it would be wise (IMHO) to not become hypocrites in the process. hate is hate.Bullseye! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
houstonmacbro Posted November 8, 2006 Share Posted November 8, 2006 kink please run for office! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KinkaidAlum Posted November 8, 2006 Share Posted November 8, 2006 I totally agree with you there, Bach. There should be no glee in what has happened around the country the last few weeks. Foley's scandal, Haggert's troubles, and the general tone of dirty politics by using fear based ads with racial undertones is nothing to rejoice in.My first thoughts whenever something like the Foley or Haggerts stories arise is to think, "oh great, just another negative stereotype reinforced."Then I stop myself. I realize that most rational people realize that these men happened to be homosexuals but they were not gay. I differentiate the two terms. Homosexuals are people who have the predisposition to be attracted to people of the same sex. Gays are people who admit it, accept it, and live their life without shame. That's just the way I see it.Macbro- Man, if I ran for office in Texas I would get trounced. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nmainguy Posted November 8, 2006 Share Posted November 8, 2006 What is your obsession with this dude nmainguy is he a creep? A creep? The closeted homophobe who runs the Republican party? A creep???? I'm sure she's he's the sweetest little thing on 2 legs! [but as of today, he may be looking for a new job] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TOMIKA! Posted November 8, 2006 Author Share Posted November 8, 2006 Pop open the champagne! The Dems have "thumped" the GOP!!! FINALLY!!!!! Rumsfeld is out! Hastert won Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheNiche Posted November 8, 2006 Share Posted November 8, 2006 I have to say this is one of the happiest days of my life Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TOMIKA! Posted November 8, 2006 Author Share Posted November 8, 2006 How old are you? Now, now, TheNiche. No need to get bashful now that your party lost. Take it like a man (or woman). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheNiche Posted November 8, 2006 Share Posted November 8, 2006 Now, now, TheNiche. No need to get bashful now that your party lost.I have no party. All I'm saying is that if this is among the best moments in your life, then either you haven't got much to go on or you've led a life that I'm glad that I haven't. If you find that personally insulting, well I'm sorry, but doesn't that strike you as pretty pathetic as well?Oh, and bashful is a synonym for shy, not whatever word you meant to use.Take it like a man (or woman).So...take it like a human (or whatever I happen to be)? That's meaningless.See, this is why I agree with the Democrats that we need more focus on education at the primary and secondary levels...even if I can't seem to agree with them on many other policy matters about which large quantities of money are involved. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TJones Posted November 9, 2006 Share Posted November 9, 2006 Pop open the champagne! The Dems have "thumped" the GOP!!! FINALLY!!!!! Rumsfeld is out! Hastert won Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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