Greenspoint Mall Developments

[bachanon]

there are thousands of 100k to 150k homes being built within 5 miles of greenspoint mall. these homes are south of 1960, north of the belt. there are neighborhoods east of veterans memorial and west of aldine westfield. all of these areas are filling in closer to greenspoint. it is easier and quicker to get to greenspoint than to deerbrook or willowbrook. i believe that there is demand for this project or it wouldn't be going forward.

also, i didn't see anywhere that it is intended to be upscale as desirous and springtx have said.

[DJ V Lawrence]

I think this project has a pot of potential. There's already a pretty healthy population surrounding the mall, and lots of residence, plus I'm pretty sure people that live around the Woodlands, Deerbrook, and Willowbrook wouldn't just shop at one mall; they like the variety. I think more Greenspoint residence will fill up the mall. Plus, those hotels surrounding the mall help a lot, too.

I hope the whole Greenspoint main area gets renovated (street area, landscaping) after the mall is finished with it's transformation.

[bachanon]

I think this project has a pot of potential.

freudian slip dj?

[SpringTX]

there are thousands of 100k to 150k homes being built within 5 miles of greenspoint mall. these homes are south of 1960, north of the belt. there are neighborhoods east of veterans memorial and west of aldine westfield. all of these areas are filling in closer to greenspoint. it is easier and quicker to get to greenspoint than to deerbrook or willowbrook. i believe that there is demand for this project or it wouldn't be going forward.

Yes, but I would amend that slightly to say that all those homes are mostly in the 90k to 110k range.

also, i didn't see anywhere that it is intended to be upscale as desirous and springtx have said.

If we're talking about a bigger/expanded "low-brow" mall (which is what Greenspoint already is), then I see where they're going.

There is just too much competition from the Woodlands (Mall, Market Square, Pavilion, etc.) on 45, Deerbrook Mall on 59, and Willowbrook Mall on 249. Inside the Belt people are not rich enough to support an upscale development.

Willowbrook is 20 miles from Greenspoint: at least 30 minutes' drive, or more if there is traffic on 1960. I think the overlap of the market areas for Willowbrook and Greenspoint is relatively small.

And the same thing with Deerbrook Mall; it's 22 miles from Greenspoint: just under 30 minutes' drive.

The Woodlands Mall is about 25 minutes away from Greenspoint. But it's targeted to an entirely different demographic than to what the current Greenspoint Mall is targeted.

For all those new residents coming into the areas near I-45 that Bachanon mentions, Greenspoint is 10 or 15 minutes away. While many would describe those residents as "urban", and the 1960 corridor as "urban" retail to serve them, that only goes so far. All walks of life and all income levels need a shopping mall, if nothing else than for holiday shopping and movie-going.

Currently, the Greenspoint area has one of the highest concentration of low-income, high-density apartment complexes in Houston. But these new subdivisions going in that Bachanon mentions, these are lower-middle class families. We're talking about a lot of foreign-born folks, primarily Hispanic but also Asian. We're talking about blue collar workers and nurses and so on. While they're not upscale, they're not ghetto, either. It'll be interesting to see if the Greenspoint Mall is able to successfully transform from a ghetto mall to a lower-middle class mall. It'll be interesting to see what it looks like. Maybe it'll look like a mall in Pasadena, for example.

[Houston1stWordOnTheMoon]

Dont leave out all the people that stay in hotels in the gunspoint area. Re-doing the mall is a good idea and i think it would work :)

[DJ V Lawrence]

freudian slip dj?

my bad! Keyboard slip, honestly! Sounded pretty bad, I know!

Dont leave out all the people that stay in hotels in the gunspoint area. Re-doing the mall is a good idea and i think it would work

How did Greenspoint/Gunspoint recieve that reputation? I came from Alief (you know, former Westwood Mall? Spice Lane? S.W.A.T?), so Greenspoint, a mall with successful hotels surrounding it and getting ready for a 32 million dollar makeover, doesn't sound all that dangerous to me. When I went there, I saw people that seemed nothing like the stereotype that Greenspoint was poor.

That whole area will thrive in the future if this project is just a stepping stone for bigger projects in that area.

Edited April 23, 2006 by DJ V Lawrence

[bachanon]

greenspoint has stepped up security since the "gunspoint" days. the mall addition and makeover will help the area.

[SpringTX]

When I went there, I saw people that seemed nothing like the stereotype that Greenspoint was poor.

Did you go there at lunchtime on a weekday? Allegedly the office worker crowd is there at those times...but when the sun goes down, or on weekends...

[Houstonian in Iraq]

Lunch time and 9-5 during the week it doesn't look too different than downtown, people in suits walking around. In the evening you would find more teenagers and families mostly appearing to range from lower to mid income. It's not the worse mall around and any improvement is welcomed.

[DJ V Lawrence]

Did you go there at lunchtime on a weekday? Allegedly the office worker crowd is there at those times...but when the sun goes down, or on weekends...

Until I get shot at in the Greenspoint Area, I don't see any reason to duck when I walk into the food court

But oye, I've only been there on weekends, and never on a weekday. And the Warrick Hotel was a great host for the citywide Chess tournament a few years back. It seems like a lot of potential because of it's location between CBD and IAH

[zaphod]

Its good that they are renovating it instead of tearing it down. GP+parking is HUGE, you know its nearly a kilometer from the entrance at greens road to the parking spots that edge up to the ramps for the BW8/45 interchange.(measure tool on google earth)

Edited April 24, 2006 by zaphod

[Houstonian in Iraq]

Until I get shot at in the Greenspoint Area, I don't see any reason to duck when I walk into the food court

But oye, I've only been there on weekends, and never on a weekday. And the Warrick Hotel was a great host for the citywide Chess tournament a few years back. It seems like a lot of potential because of it's location between CBD and IAH

I think it was just a phrase/rep that was picked up and stuck. I always saw it as an ordinary mall. Yeah some of the surrounding area can be shady but the mall and bussiness area isn't as bad as a lot of people think it is

[Jeebus]

I was under the impression that the flood washed away all the original reasons why Greenspoint had earned it's moniker of "gunspoint".

[citykid09]

They already demolishing Northline Mall.

Really? I think my sister, some friends and I where going to a carnival at that mall one day but when we go there we didn't. I think there was a Foleys there.

So why are they demolising it? I think I passed by it when I was in Houston yesterday and it was still there.

EDIT: Now I remember, this is the mall thats going to become open air. and the lightrail is supposed to run through there.

One of the oldest shopping malls in the city of Houston is about to undergo an extreme makeover.

Northline Mall will eventually be demolished and replaced by an 850,000-square-foot open-air power center featuring big-box specialty retailers and general merchandise stores. The project will be similar to the complete redevelopment of Gulfgate Center, which was finished three years ago by E.D. "Ed" Wulfe of Wulfe & Co.

http://houston.bizjournals.com/houston/sto.../07/story7.html

EDIT AGAIN: Northline is on 45? Well I didn't see it, I think I am thinking about NorthWest Mall. near 290 and 610 area, kind of close to the Galleria area as I remember it??? Is this the Mall that I am talking about?

If so, are there any plans for Northwest Mall?

Edited April 24, 2006 by citykid09

[TheNiche]

Yes, but I would amend that slightly to say that all those homes are mostly in the 90k to 110k range.

If we're talking about a bigger/expanded "low-brow" mall (which is what Greenspoint already is), then I see where they're going.

Currently, the Greenspoint area has one of the highest concentration of low-income, high-density apartment complexes in Houston. But these new subdivisions going in that Bachanon mentions, these are lower-middle class families. We're talking about a lot of foreign-born folks, primarily Hispanic but also Asian. We're talking about blue collar workers and nurses and so on. While they're not upscale, they're not ghetto, either. It'll be interesting to see if the Greenspoint Mall is able to successfully transform from a ghetto mall to a lower-middle class mall. It'll be interesting to see what it looks like. Maybe it'll look like a mall in Pasadena, for example.

I don't see growth in the 90k to 150k span (an accurate description of the perponderance of the new housing being constructed) or for that matter the renovation of the Cityview set of apartment complexes a few years ago as much of a reason to think that Greenspoint is experiencing a rennaisance of any sort. There shouldn't be much hope of future price appreciation within these new subdivisions; I see them as the Sunnysides of tomorrow. Moreover, office construction in the immediate vicinity is stagnant.

Pasadena Town Center is a good example of what investors in retail properties should avoid. They have a heck of a lot of vacancies, are about to lose Dillards as one of their anchor tenants, and lost the Mervyn's across the street as a shadow anchor. Its population and household base grew substantially from the 1990 to the 2000 censuses and is among the Houston area's densest areas, but still failed to generate the kind of sales volume necessary to sustain a mall. Meanwhile, several new strip centers have been built along Southmore and a few others have undergone significant renovations; most of them have done very well.

When it comes down to it, adding lower-middle-class and lower-class households to an area causes a boom in strip center construction but does nothing for the regional malls. The reason is that strip centers have lower operating costs per square foot and don't need the kind of sales volume per square foot to sustain them--they're cheaper and do a better job at matching the needs of their customer base.

All that said, if Greenspoint can leverage its convenience to the large population of office employees by, for instance, building in better pedestrian connectivity between it and the office buildings lining Greenspoint and Northchase Drives along its eastern periphery (and they'd have to be very creative, doing a very good job), then they might be able to induce more customer traffic. But I'm talking about things like shaded, possibly enclosed and air-conditioned pedestrian walkways with bidirectional mechanical conveyor belts, like in many large airports. That'd be a huge boost to their lunchtime traffic...but you all know...the benefits have to outweigh the costs, and the costs would be pretty substantial.

[SpringTX]

I don't see growth in the 90k to 150k span (an accurate description of the perponderance of the new housing being constructed) or for that matter the renovation of the Cityview set of apartment complexes a few years ago as much of a reason to think that Greenspoint is experiencing a rennaisance of any sort. There shouldn't be much hope of future price appreciation within these new subdivisions; I see them as the Sunnysides of tomorrow. Moreover, office construction in the immediate vicinity is stagnant.

Pasadena Town Center is a good example of what investors in retail properties should avoid. They have a heck of a lot of vacancies, are about to lose Dillards as one of their anchor tenants, and lost the Mervyn's across the street as a shadow anchor. Its population and household base grew substantially from the 1990 to the 2000 censuses and is among the Houston area's densest areas, but still failed to generate the kind of sales volume necessary to sustain a mall. Meanwhile, several new strip centers have been built along Southmore and a few others have undergone significant renovations; most of them have done very well.

When it comes down to it, adding lower-middle-class and lower-class households to an area causes a boom in strip center construction but does nothing for the regional malls. The reason is that strip centers have lower operating costs per square foot and don't need the kind of sales volume per square foot to sustain them--they're cheaper and do a better job at matching the needs of their customer base.

All that said, if Greenspoint can leverage its convenience to the large population of office employees by, for instance, building in better pedestrian connectivity between it and the office buildings lining Greenspoint and Northchase Drives along its eastern periphery (and they'd have to be very creative, doing a very good job), then they might be able to induce more customer traffic. But I'm talking about things like shaded, possibly enclosed and air-conditioned pedestrian walkways with bidirectional mechanical conveyor belts, like in many large airports. That'd be a huge boost to their lunchtime traffic...but you all know...the benefits have to outweigh the costs, and the costs would be pretty substantial.

Thanks for the good post. Based on what you're saying, it sounds like the Greenspoint Mall is NOT headed for any sort of recovery.

Edited April 24, 2006 by SpringTX

[houstonsemipro]

Really? I think my sister, some friends and I where going to a carnival at that mall one day but when we go there we didn't. I think there was a Foleys there.

So why are they demolising it? I think I passed by it when I was in Houston yesterday and it was still there.

EDIT: Now I remember, this is the mall thats going to become open air. and the lightrail is supposed to run through there.

One of the oldest shopping malls in the city of Houston is about to undergo an extreme makeover.

Northline Mall will eventually be demolished and replaced by an 850,000-square-foot open-air power center featuring big-box specialty retailers and general merchandise stores. The project will be similar to the complete redevelopment of Gulfgate Center, which was finished three years ago by E.D. "Ed" Wulfe of Wulfe & Co.

http://houston.bizjournals.com/houston/sto.../07/story7.html

EDIT AGAIN: Northline is on 45? Well I didn't see it, I think I am thinking about NorthWest Mall. near 290 and 610 area, kind of close to the Galleria area as I remember it??? Is this the Mall that I am talking about?

If so, are there any plans for Northwest Mall?

Citykid. I passed by Northline Mall last weekend, and they already started demolishing the mall. So far, they've tore down Montgomery Wards.

Edited April 24, 2006 by houstonsemipro

[TheNiche]

Thanks for the good post. Based on what you're saying, it sounds like the Greenspoint Mall is NOT headed for any sort of recovery.

In a perfectly market-based model, I would agree with your conclusion.

If they sink a lot of money into it without the profit motive (i.e. rental rates don't go up), and they design the project very well, they can induce new shops to open and create a thriving public space. But it would be a financial failure.

If they boost rental rates according to financial necessity, they'll probably experience a fair amount of tenant turnover and may have a few more tenants move in, but the financial success will be negligible at its very best and vacancy rates will likely hold steady or even increase so as to defeat the goals of creating a healthy public space.

One thing that I should've addressed is that the Greenspoint TIRZ is in play here, and a TIRZ can spend money just about any damned way it pleases (as evidenced by Garnet Coleman's expenditures of Midtown TIRZ dollars in 3rd Ward land or by the East Downtown TIRZ's financial backing of Lofts at the Ballpark, which leased up very very slowly and would otherwise have been a financial disaster). I don't doubt that the owners of Greenspoint are shrewd businesspeople; but TIRZs always raise an eyebrow. It could very well be that so much of this is being financed by the Greenspoint TIRZ that the profit-motive has been curtailed or even completely eliminated through negotiation.

[Houston19514]

Yes, but I would amend that slightly to say that all those homes are mostly in the 90k to 110k range.

If we're talking about a bigger/expanded "low-brow" mall (which is what Greenspoint already is), then I see where they're going.

Willowbrook is 20 miles from Greenspoint: at least 30 minutes' drive, or more if there is traffic on 1960. I think the overlap of the market areas for Willowbrook and Greenspoint is relatively small.

And the same thing with Deerbrook Mall; it's 22 miles from Greenspoint: just under 30 minutes' drive.

The Woodlands Mall is about 25 minutes away from Greenspoint. But it's targeted to an entirely different demographic than to what the current Greenspoint Mall is targeted.

What map and mode of transportation are you using, man? ;-)

Willowbrook is 9.4 miles from Greenspoint (not 20) and it would be crazy out of the way to go from one to the other by way of FM1960.

Deerbrook is 15 miles from Greenspoint (not 22).

The Woodlands Mall is 16.7 miles, not a 25 minute drive at most times of the day.

Edited April 24, 2006 by Houston19514

[SpringTX]

What map and mode of transportation are you using, man? ;-)

Willowbrook is 9.4 miles from Greenspoint (not 20) and it would be crazy out of the way to go from one to the other by way of FM1960.

Deerbrook is 15 miles from Greenspoint (not 22).

The Woodlands Mall is 16.7 miles, not a 25 minute drive at most times of the day.

I measured using FM 1960 and I-45 in both directions. MapQuest showed Beltway 8 as the fastest way, but I didn't think a typical Sunday driver to the mall would be using the toll road. I could be wrong on this, though. Is there a non-toll way to get from one to the other that is faster than 1960? I didn't see an obvious one. Having lived in the area for years, 1960 is the road we always used to and from Willowbrook and Deerbrook as well.

As for I-45 from Greenspoint to The Woodlands, maybe we're talking 20 minutes instead of 25 to Greenspoint. It takes me at least 10 minutes just to get from 1960 to Woodlands Parkway. Maybe traffic is worse on weekends, or maybe you drive faster than I do.

[bachanon]

beltway 8 has been the fastest route in my experience. i prefer it over 1960. it can shave 15-20 minutes off of the travel time.

[Roy D. Mercer]

How did Greenspoint/Gunspoint recieve that reputation?

Back in the early 1980's the body count coming out of the Gunspoint area was tremendous. There was even a cop kidnapped and later found burned to death in her vehicle. Then it was over run with gangs not shoppers, heck there was more stealing than buying. Needless to say after that reputation got foothold it was down hill from there. Hence the big public relations campaign in the media to change the image. I chuckle everytime I hear it. Like I would want to shop in Watts. Heck the only reason anyone from the outside came there to shop was there was no other place to shop. (1980's)

[bachanon]

welcome to the forum roy d. mercer.

[Roy D. Mercer]

welcome to the forum roy d. mercer.

Thanks

[TJones]

Thanks

How big a boy are ya ?

[SpringTX]

Back in the early 1980's the body count coming out of the Gunspoint area was tremendous. There was even a cop kidnapped and later found burned to death in her vehicle. Then it was over run with gangs not shoppers, heck there was more stealing than buying. Needless to say after that reputation got foothold it was down hill from there. Hence the big public relations campaign in the media to change the image. I chuckle everytime I hear it. Like I would want to shop in Watts. Heck the only reason anyone from the outside came there to shop was there was no other place to shop. (1980's)

I heard somewhere that Compton is actually what was Watts, and they just changed the name, for image purposes that you describe. I had always wondered what had happened to Watts. Maybe they need to change the name of Greenspoint. Maybe to "Wattspoint", for example?

[TAK]

I heard somewhere that Compton is actually what was Watts, and they just changed the name, for image purposes that you describe. I had always wondered what had happened to Watts. Maybe they need to change the name of Greenspoint. Maybe to "Wattspoint", for example?

You heard incorrectly. Compton became a city before 1900. It is next to Watts.

Greenspoint is no Watts or Compton. My Aunt leaves on Northchase - in an apartment.

"Gunspoint" was bad for a minute. Now it's just lower-class income. Most of the people are good people.

You might notice that we tend to label any non-middle class or above neighborhood as one that has either:

1. LOTS of crime

2. TERRIBLE schools

which are both smoke screens for saying "poor minorities" (or in some cases, just "minorities").

there are areas of houston that are FAR worse than Greenspoint. Greenspoint needs an 'update' - it's 30 years old and pretty much in it's original condition. Memorial City needed an update - it got one. Town & Country needed an update... well, it got torn down as the open air stores replaced it. Greenspoint got an 'update' if you want to call it that - and the update was terrible.

Now, having said all that, I think Greenspoint will still suffer. There are a lot of residences nearby, but not a lot of expendable income. There are a lot of kids, though. It will likely be a teen hangout. I'm sure it will be secure as I would expect the police presence to be significant as everyone is aware of the past reputation. I just don't think the money will come in. I think Northline will do better... Hmmmmm maybe they're updating Greenspoint to keep the crime and bad schools "out there" and away from Northline...

I'm just being cynical and bitter... no particular reason, either.

[Roy D. Mercer]

How big a boy are ya ?

Did ya pack yer lunch?

[Roy D. Mercer]

"Gunspoint" was bad for a minute. Now it's just lower-class income. Most of the people are good people.

You might notice that we tend to label any non-middle class or above neighborhood as one that has either:

1. LOTS of crime

2. TERRIBLE schools

which are both smoke screens for saying "poor minorities" (or in some cases, just "minorities").

The crime statistics based on zip codes bear what I stated as fact (not just in the 1980

[SpringTX]

The crime statistics based on zip codes bear what I stated as fact (not just in the 1980