Cigarette Smoking Bans & Ordinances

[RedScare]

If I weren't so self-absorbed and inconsiderate, the previous posts might actually mean something to me.

BTW, escapee, I am planning on going on a 60 mile bicycle ride this weekend, if you'd care to join me. I know it offends non-smokers to find that a smoker can be healthy (you ought to see them stare at me on breaks during my bike rides!), but it happens. I haven't been ill in years.

The rhetoric of non-smokers always amuses me. Most smokers start smoking because of it's anarchistic status, especially among the young. Most of us continue smoking because we like it. To be told by a bunch of do-gooders how bad smoking is and how bad I am for doing it, is comical. I mean, think about it. The last two posters (actually post #77 and 78) live in Austin and East Texas. Could I really care less about what their opinions are about me and my hobby? Could Houston restaurantuers and bar owners care less, either? Actually, I enjoy the notoriety. In a world where everyone is falling over themselves to be the same as everyone else, I find it mildly satisfying that my smoking makes me different...almost as satisfying as that first smoke in the morning. I've also found that rabid non-smokers have a dangerous tendency to be rabid in other ways as well. I find it best to avoid them.

There actually ARE numerous smoke-free restaurants in the city. They cater to a crowd that is largely non-smoking. They run the gamut from kid friendly places to healthy eating restaurants to a smattering of bars. The free-market IS addressing the issue. But, that's not good enough for some. They not only want to have their places where smoking is allowed, but they want to impose their will on others. Why? Because they want to hang out with us smokers! If they didn't, they would not care what we did in our (supposedly) smoke infested hellholes.

Frankly, I do not care what the do-gooders decide. If the bars go smoke free, I'll go somewhere else. In fact, I already see a business opportunity here. Whenever government steps in to limit an activity that a substantial group enjoys, the profit in providing that activity soars. As an attorney, I know that there are loopholes in every law. There will be one here as well. I'll bet free-marketers like TheNiche would agree.

Edited October 12, 2006 by RedScare

[TJones]

I don't think anyone has mentioned the employees in bars. After all, there are a lot of people (i.e. students) that need this kind of work schedule. Why should they be trying to do something as simple as put themselves through school and be subjected to smoke?

Why do they need to be Bartenders, go work the late shift at McDonald's if they are worried about smoking.

Being a non-smoker, I know that what I am preaching is Blasphemist. I know the risks I take by going into a BAR to enjoy a drink. I see the non-smoker protests as "one vice isn't nearly as bad as the other." That is B.S. Show me proof where less people die per year from Drunk Drivers on there way home from bars, than people dying from second-hand smoke because they were going to bars and I will concede.

Edited October 12, 2006 by TJones

[westguy76]

If I weren't so self-absorbed and inconsiderate, the previous posts might actually mean something to me.

BTW, escapee, I am planning on going on a 60 mile bicycle ride this weekend, if you'd care to join me. I know it offends non-smokers to find that a smoker can be healthy (you ought to see them stare at me on breaks during my bike rides!), but it happens. I haven't been ill in years.

The rhetoric of non-smokers always amuses me. Most smokers start smoking because of it's anarchistic status, especially among the young. Most of us continue smoking because we like it. To be told by a bunch of do-gooders how bad smoking is and how bad I am for doing it, is comical. I mean, think about it. The last two posters (actually post #77 and 78) live in Austin and East Texas. Could I really care less about what their opinions are about me and my hobby? Could Houston restaurantuers and bar owners care less, either? Actually, I enjoy the notoriety. In a world where everyone is falling over themselves to be the same as everyone else, I find it mildly satisfying that my smoking makes me different...almost as satisfying as that first smoke in the morning. I've also found that rabid non-smokers have a dangerous tendency to be rabid in other ways as well. I find it best to avoid them.

There actually ARE numerous smoke-free restaurants in the city. They cater to a crowd that is largely non-smoking. They run the gamut from kid friendly places to healthy eating restaurants to a smattering of bars. The free-market IS addressing the issue. But, that's not good enough for some. They not only want to have their places where smoking is allowed, but they want to impose their will on others. Why? Because they want to hang out with us smokers! If they didn't, they would not care what we did in our (supposedly) smoke infested hellholes.

Frankly, I do not care what the do-gooders decide. If the bars go smoke free, I'll go somewhere else. In fact, I already see a business opportunity here. Whenever government steps in to limit an activity that a substantial group enjoys, the profit in providing that activity soars. As an attorney, I know that there are loopholes in every law. There will be one here as well. I'll bet free-marketers like TheNiche would agree.

smoking doesn't make you look like an anarchist or cool, never did, never will. It makes you look like a moron! And you must be bitter about it because you can't quit now. Just as a guess.

[RedScare]

Why do they need to be Bartenders, go work the late shift at McDonald's if they are worried about smoking.

Ahh, but TJ, the money is better in the bars! And, why is the money better in the bars? Well, ask any bar employee who the best tippers are. They'll tell ya. Notice, they aren't the ones pushing for this ordinance, either.

smoking doesn't make you look like an anarchist or cool, never did, never will. It makes you look like a moron! And you must be bitter about it because you can't quit now. Just as a guess.

Apparently, you did not read my post.

The rhetoric of non-smokers always amuses me.

[TJones]

Ahh, but TJ, the money is better in the bars! And, why is the money better in the bars? Well, ask any bar employee who the best tippers are. They'll tell ya. Notice, they aren't the ones pushing for this ordinance, either.

Trust me, as a Veteran of the bar scene from about 1987 to now. Having worked and managed a variety of drinking and eating establishments for 10 years in our fine city. I know all too well who are the tippers. The TOP tippers are the ones who are either actually in the business or have ever been IN the business, smokers are second, but it is more like a tie. Money is alot better int he bars, but those tips won't be flowin' like they are now if you take the barflies away. Those poor college students might as well go flip burgers instead of dealing with drunks and people who will nurse a frozen daiquiri and not tip.

"PRINT IT !"

[escapee]

So............Red is a lawyer AND an evil smoker. That explains A LOT!!!!!

[heights_yankee]

Trust me, as a Veteran of the bar scene from about 1987 to now. Having worked and managed a variety of drinking and eating establishments for 10 years in our fine city. I know all too well who are the tippers. The TOP tippers are the ones who are either actually in the business or have ever been IN the business, smokers are second, but it is more like a tie. Money is alot better int he bars, but those tips won't be flowin' like they are now if you take the barflies away. Those poor college students might as well go flip burgers instead of dealing with drunks and people who will nurse a frozen daiquiri and not tip.

"PRINT IT !"

Well, after 10 years in the service industry in 3 major US cities I see it just a little differently: industry/ex industry are the biggest, drinkers would be second and smokers 3rd.

And as far as the tips going away- again, many other cities already prove this is not going to be the case. Waiters in Boston, NY, LA, San Fran and all minor cities surrounding these will tell you they're doing just as well as they ever did.

from Boston.com

"Sales and employment at Massachusetts restaurants and bars grew slightly during the first six months of a statewide smoking ban, disproving predictions that the prohibition would inflict serious damage on the hospitality industry, Harvard researchers are scheduled to report today...

The Harvard researchers reviewed state tax records for all restaurants, bars, and nightclubs from July through December of last year -- the first six months of the statewide ban -- and compared them with receipts for the comparable period in previous years.

To make an apples-to-apples comparison, the researchers took into account inflation. Even after doing that, they found that tax collections on meals rose about 9 percent after the ban went into effect compared with the July through December average for 1999 through 2003. The researchers also found that alcoholic beverage excise tax collections remained essentially steady.

Similarly, the figures showed a slight rise in the number of people working in restaurants and bars.

''We had anticipated that and projected that, but no one believed us," said Joyce Redford, director of the North Shore Tobacco Control Program, which covers nine cities and towns. ''Now look: Lo and behold, it's exactly what happened."

Even the business alliance that once stood determinedly in opposition to the ban, sending it to repeated defeats on Beacon Hill, concedes that the law has had no persistent negative effects."

Boston.com Article

Edited October 12, 2006 by heights_yankee

[TJones]

Well, after 10 years in the service industry in 3 major US cities I see it just a little differently: industry/ex industry are the biggest, drinkers would be second and smokers 3rd.

And as far as the tips going away- again, many other cities already prove this is not going to be the case. Waiters in Boston, NY, LA, San Fran and all minor cities surrounding these will tell you they're doing just as well as they ever did.

So, the Waiters and Bartenders have kept making the same money as they always have 10 years after the smoking ban ? I apologize, since 2003 you mean. That's when it happened in Boston, right ?

Edited October 12, 2006 by TJones

[heights_yankee]

So, they have kept making the same money as they always have 10 years after the smoking ban ?

The ban hasn't been in place in 10 years (I think it was in 2003), but I could only see that is going to be the trend. After all, in another 5 years it's going to be just the norm and people who always went to bars will continue to. After 10 years, people aren't suddenly going to say "Well, I haven't been smoking in bars for 10 years, so now I guess I am going to stop going."

Edited October 12, 2006 by heights_yankee

[TJones]

The ban hasn't been in place in 10 years, but I could only see that is going to be the trend. After all, in another 5 years it's going to be just the norm and people who always went to bars will continue to. After 10 years, people aren't suddenly going to say "Well, I haven't been smoking in bars for 10 years, so now I guess I am going to stop going."

We are talking about the Waiters and Bartenders though. If I had made the same money for 4 years now, and the cost of living kept rising. I would be pissed, since it would seem that banning smoking has changed nothing but my pocketbook to get smaller and be unable to make ends meet.

[RedScare]

I'm going down to the local watering hole to have a drink and smoke...while I still can.

Don't nobody say anything bad about me til I get back, or I'll send TJ over to straighten you out.

[heights_yankee]

We are talking about the Waiters and Bartenders though. If I had made the same money for 4 years now, and the cost of living kept rising. I would be pissed, since it would seem that banning smoking has changed nothing but my pocketbook to get smaller and be unable to make ends meet.

If a waiter or bartender's tips havent' increased in 10 years, that is not going to be b/c of the smoking ban. If establishments raise their prices in accordance with inflation, the patrons will still be tipping on percentage and the waiters take home will increase. This has nothing to do with the smoking ban at all, but A for effort.

[TJones]

If a waiter or bartender's tips havent' increased in 10 years, that is not going to be b/c of the smoking ban. If establishments raise their prices in accordance with inflation, the patrons will still be tipping on percentage and the waiters take home will increase. This has nothing to do with the smoking ban at all, but A for effort.

We are talking from 2003, NOT 10 years. People also need to know that Tipping is not a city in China, and that a 10% tip shows you don't know jack about tipping. I believe most restaurant's prices in this town have not changed in the past 4 years, but the price of rent and gas certainly have. The price of Drinks certainly has risen, but some places stay the same, and yet the same losers who nurse those drinks still tip a measly Buck, and take up space. While the real tippers are fixin' to be forced out, because about 70% of waiters and Bartenders smoke also. After a long tiresome shift, they try to make it before last call and need to unwind, and they usually like a smoke with there drink. So, you get a "C" for Clueless.

Edited October 12, 2006 by TJones

[sevfiv]

smoking is also a good way to get out of the office/workplace sometimes - i used to always take non-smoking smoke breaks...

[Houston1stWordOnTheMoon]

The smoking ban is stupid today yesterday and will be tomorrow. Its not hurting the business, if it were, they wouldnt be so damn crowded!!!!!

This is Texas and i used to say it is the last free state in the Union. Now it seems, atleast in the large cities, on a trend to fast track the removal of personal freedoms. Following the donkey ass of the rest of the country straight to the chains of oppression!!!!!!!!

[TJones]

That's just it Moonman, the sheep are slowly being led to the slaughter, and then when they finally see the big Axe shining in front of them, they'll all start asking. "What, how did this happen ? Why don't we have our rights anymore ?"

[westguy76]

You guy's keep whining about personal freedoms all you want cause you have no freaking clue what you are talking about. You wouldn't know a personal freedom if it bit you in the ass! Your personal freedom stops as soon as it infringes on mine. Seventh grade government!

Oh no the good tippers are being forced out. Get a real job, stop relying on welfare and bitching about it. I am not subsudising anyones income but my own.

Enjoy throwing away your money on smokes that make you look ignorant, throwing away money tipping(you might as well be throwing it a stripper). I guess smokers are better tippers congratulations, i guess they are used to throwing away their money.

[nmainguy]

The smoking ban is stupid today yesterday and will be tomorrow. Its not hurting the business, if it were, they wouldnt be so damn crowded!!!!!

So it's forever stupid but not hurting the buisness? Even though it hasn't been passed therefore people still smoke in bars?

Following the donkey ass of the rest of the country straight to the chains of oppression!!!!!!!!

LunaBoy?

Were you a writer for the former Soviet Union?

[TheNiche]

You guy's keep whining about personal freedoms all you want cause you have no freaking clue what you are talking about. You wouldn't know a personal freedom if it bit you in the ass! Your personal freedom stops as soon as it infringes on mine. Seventh grade government!

Let me guess...a coach taught your class. Yeah, it happened to me too.

[heights_yankee]

We are talking from 2003, NOT 10 years. People also need to know that Tipping is not a city in China, and that a 10% tip shows you don't know jack about tipping. I believe most restaurant's prices in this town have not changed in the past 4 years, but the price of rent and gas certainly have. The price of Drinks certainly has risen, but some places stay the same, and yet the same losers who nurse those drinks still tip a measly Buck, and take up space. While the real tippers are fixin' to be forced out, because about 70% of waiters and Bartenders smoke also. After a long tiresome shift, they try to make it before last call and need to unwind, and they usually like a smoke with there drink. So, you get a "C" for Clueless.

I love how you editted your post to make me look like a C student. Your original post said 1999, NOT 2003. Nice try though- I may be a C student, but I can still read and actually retain information over night. I also never mentioned 10% as an acceptable tip. I waited tables all through college and, like any good liberal arts major, for almost 10 years after as my only source of income. I know who tips and who doesn't.

Again, your responses are all about speculating what you think is going to happen. I am talking factually about businesses in other cities where the ban has not only NOT closed down business, but in Boston has lead to increased business to the point where establishments had to hire additional people to keep up with the demand. Read the article- that's why I posted the link. Until you can provide concrete information about a city where a smoking ban has forced establishments to go out of business and pushed service industry people in to abject poverty, you don't have a factual argument- just your opinion. AND opinion is fine, but don't pass it off as as fact. That's so Fox News.

[Gary]

So, I guess that means the Non-smokers only get to drink themselves dead ? Why not serve cookies and milk at these tar-lung free bars also ?

IT"S A FRIGGIN" BAR ! You don't go to a bar to be "healthy". I got it ! They can install a BAR at your local 24hr. fitness, and you can kick back with a Mai Tai, while you are on the treadmill trying to pick up the drunk broad next to you on the stairmaster, while her fat friend tries to run interference by jumping in between you two while doing her pilates.

[Gary]

You guy's keep whining about personal freedoms all you want cause you have no freaking clue what you are talking about. You wouldn't know a personal freedom if it bit you in the ass! Your personal freedom stops as soon as it infringes on mine. Seventh grade government!

Oh no the good tippers are being forced out. Get a real job, stop relying on welfare and bitching about it. I am not subsudising anyones income but my own.

Enjoy throwing away your money on smokes that make you look ignorant, throwing away money tipping(you might as well be throwing it a stripper). I guess smokers are better tippers congratulations, i guess they are used to throwing away their money.

repeating what's already been said, I'm curious if you think drinking and driving infringe's on my right to be safe on the roads at 2:00am?

[TJones]

So, the Waiters and Bartenders have kept making the same money as they always have 10 years after the smoking ban ? I apologize, since 2003 you mean. That's when it happened in Boston, right ?

This was my post that you are referring to, I saw your story said the ban occurred in 2003, but your story states that the back-checking was done from 1999 to 2003 before the smoking ban. I thought they were saying at first that the ban occurred in 1999, so I read your little story again and made the change within about 2 mins. of the original post. Sue me. They do not talk about what reported earnings the Waiters and Bartenders were making, only what the business's were making. The clientel changed for the restaurant, and they didn't go into what the turnover was or wasn't for waitstaff because of said changes.

This topic has nothing to do about what people are making in the bars though, it is about a service oriented business provided by PRIVATE OWNERSHIP, that enables the public to decide to either patronize that establishment or not. It is your right to choose whether you go into said establishment, armed with the knowledge that there may be something hazardous to your health as you walk in. Alcohol is hazardous to your health, but you don't have to step foot in the joint if you don't want to have a drink. Some places have a 2 drink minimum if you walk in, is that legal ? Would it be ok, if there was no smoking allowed, but you have to buy 2 alcoholic drinks ? Btw......I never said that you said 10% was acceptable. Re-read the post for your benefit please, see if you can retain a little something more than water this time. As far as "speculating" , it is also speculation that the same thing will happen here in H-Town as it has in Austin, and Boston, and L.A. Those cities are far different from this one. Speculating that Houston will just fall in line like the rest of those cities is just the same as my speculating that there will be a decline in business. Again though, it is not about decline in business, it is about taking away Owner's rights to run a business as they see fit. It is THEIR business, they worked for it, they made it happen, it should be their choice whether or not to do something in their business that is NOT illegal, and smoking is NOT illegal.

Westguy, I think we've had this discussion before about your inability to tip worth a flip. Go to Jack in The Box, and quit wasting hardworking waiters and waitresses' time. Hieghts will tell you as well as I that waiting tables is no cake walk, I guarantee you wouldn't last 2 hours at Mama's Cafe during Sunday breakfast Why don't you do this from now on, since you will probably keep going to sitdown restaurants anyways. Tell your server ahead of time that you don't plan on tipping very well, and that they will probably only get like 5 to 10 %, and see how much "service" you get. Those men and women deserve everybit of 15% minimum !

[heights_yankee]

Westguy, I think we've had this discussion before about your inability to tip worth a flip. Go to Jack in The Box, and quit wasting hardworking waiters and waitresses' time. Hieghts will tell you as well as I that waiting tables is no cake walk, I guarantee you wouldn't last 2 hours at Mama's Cafe during Sunday breakfast Why don't you do this from now on, since you will probably keep going to sitdown restaurants anyways. Tell your server ahead of time that you don't plan on tipping very well, and that they will probably only get like 5 to 10 %, and see how much "service" you get. Those men and women deserve everybit of 15% minimum !

This we can agree on.

[skwatra]

Some places have a 2 drink minimum if you walk in, is that legal ? Would it be ok, if there was no smoking allowed, but you have to buy 2 alcoholic drinks ?

the only places i've been to that have 2 drink minimums are strip clubs and comedy clubs. and i've been to quite a few - never do they force you to buy alcohol drinks. you can always get a coke, though they may charge you $7 for it. please let me know if there's a place that requires you to purchase two alcoholic drinks.

bottom line for me, i don't care if people go to bars to be healthy or not. you can go and not drink, you can't go and not inhale second hand smoke if people are smoking.

i'm at the point where i expect it at bars, and it would be nice not smelling like smoke when i leave, but i can deal. i do have a friend who loves to drink and party with us, but can't go to certain places that are too smokey because of his asthma.

[westguy76]

repeating what's already been said, I'm curious if you think drinking and driving infringe's on my right to be safe on the roads at 2:00am?

yes, differance is

drinking and driving is already against the law(prohibited) and already being policed by the government.

This we can agree on.

hey don't be pissed at me.

First off be pissed at the restraunt owner he is making more than enough money to pay the damn waiters and waitresses, barmaids, etc. like every other buisness owner does. Instead of especting me to subsidize his cost of employment!!!

second, nobody is forcing people to wait tables try going out and doing some jobs supposedly only the illegals will do, i did, you'll find it self-gratifying to have to work your ass of to earn a wage and people will appreciatte it with genuine respect. instead of having the notion having to tip someone for what they're supposed to be doing anyways weighing over their head.

but this is off-topic.

[Gary]

yes, differance is

drinking and driving is already against the law(prohibited) and already being policed by the government.

Your missing the point. We we're arguing your right's and health being infringed upon because of people smoking in bar's. Right? I say that my right's (my health) are being violated by you drinking and driving, regardless of whether you get pulled over by the cops or not. I might be dead by then anyway.

What I don't understand, is how you can argue the fact that these are individually owned businesess who should own there right to do as they please. Remember, you have the right not to enter there establishment as well.

Edited October 13, 2006 by Gary

[TJones]

yes, differance is

drinking and driving is already against the law(prohibited) and already being policed by the government.

hey don't be pissed at me.

First off be pissed at the restraunt owner he is making more than enough money to pay the damn waiters and waitresses, barmaids, etc. like every other buisness owner does. Instead of especting me to subsidize his cost of employment!!!

second, nobody is forcing people to wait tables try going out and doing some jobs supposedly only the illegals will do, i did, you'll find it self-gratifying to have to work your ass of to earn a wage and people will appreciatte it with genuine respect. instead of having the notion having to tip someone for what they're supposed to be doing anyways weighing over their head.

but this is off-topic.

You still don't get it. You are going to a restaurant to be waited on hand and foot, and be catered to your needs. I'll bet you are the type that bitches if your water glass isn't full the whole time aren't you ? You expect the service, but don't expect to pay for it. Who is getting subsidised NOW ? You need to confine yourself to strictly the Buffet lines around town, so you don't take up space in someone's section, taking away time and money from other patrons who appreciate what waitstaff do. It is customary, and has always been the case. Sitdown restaurants are not intended for people like yourself. My only hope would be is if you went to a restaurant that you brought at least 7 other people with you so that they could impose the automatic gratuity on you. >

You are right though, we are off-topic now.

Edited October 13, 2006 by TJones

[Gary]

First off be pissed at the restraunt owner he is making more than enough money to pay the damn waiters and waitresses, barmaids, etc. like every other buisness owner does. Instead of especting me to subsidize his cost of employment!!!

second, nobody is forcing people to wait tables try going out and doing some jobs supposedly only the illegals will do, i did, you'll find it self-gratifying to have to work your ass of to earn a wage and people will appreciatte it with genuine respect. instead of having the notion having to tip someone for what they're supposed to be doing anyways weighing over their head.

but this is off-topic.

Your unbelievable! First of all how do you know that the restaurant owner is making more than enough money? Certainly your informed enough to know that the restaurant and bar business is very difficult to sustain over time, and many of them never make it.

Your second paragraph is ubsurd at best and doesn't deserve a response.

[SunKing]

I STRONGLY disagree with with the proposed ban (and yet I'm a non-smoker). Let me ask this, are there any restrictions against opening a non-smoking bar? I'm not aware of any - yet - of the hundreds of bars and clubs open in this city - how many are 'non-smoking'? ...are there any...maybe just one? Seems to me if having a non-smoking bar was such a great and desirable thing - someone would have jumped on the chance to open one. ...and it seems like if so many people wanted a smoke-free bar - then the smoke free bars would be making lots of money. ...and encouraging more smoke free bars. But no, that's not the way it is.

Whatever happened to "Land of the FREE and home of the brave"? ..now, it's more like "Land of the regulated and home of political correctness".