Saudi Arabia Oil Turn & The COVID-19 Pandemic

[Houston19514]

2 hours ago, West Timer said:

 

But the fact that the U.S. has more covid cases and deaths than the next 5 countries on the list COMBINED does not reflect well on the leadership at the top.

 

Not all countries have it as bad as we do. In fact, we are the worst. No matter how republicans spin it - these appalling numbers are real. The buck stops with the president. Just ask any GOOD manager or president.

 

 

I stripped out the politics and just want to address the data, by correcting the misstatements and adding some context:

 

COVID Cases:

US:  788,920

Total of next 5 countries:  815,350  (Spain: 204,178; Italy: 181,228; France: 156,495; Germany: 147,593; & UK: 125,856)

 

Context:

Population of US:   330,625,701  COVID Rate: 2.386 per thousand

Population of next 5 countries:  324,032,038    (Spain: 46,755,548; Italy: 60,473,516; France: 65,242,781; Germany: 83,742,152; UK: 67,818,041)  COVID Rate:  2.516 per thousand

 

COVID Deaths:

US:  42,000 (Your number; I could not quickly find anything to confirm or dispute this number, but it seems about right)

Total of next 5 countries: 88,168 (Italy: 24,114; Spain: 21,282; France: 20,265; UK: 16,509; Belgium: 5,998)

 

Context:

Population of US:  330,625,701 COVID Death Rate 0.12 per thousand

Population of Next 5 countries:  251,869,989 (Spain: 46,755,548; Italy: 60,473,516; France: 65,242,781; Belgium: Belgium: 11,580,103; UK: 67,818,041)  COVID Death Rate:  0.35 per thousand (nearly three times the rate in the US)

 

So, let's review:

 

Claims made:

1) The United States has more COVID cases than the next five countries combined.  FALSE  788,920 vs 815,350

2) The United States has more COVID deaths than the next five countries combined.  FALSE  42,000 vs 88,168

3) The United States is the worst.  FALSE.  See above numbers and rates of cases and deaths.

[West Timer]

5 hours ago, Houston19514 said:

Claims made:

1) The United States has more COVID cases than the next five countries combined.  FALSE  788,920 vs 815,350

2) The United States has more COVID deaths than the next five countries combined.  FALSE  42,000 vs 88,168

3) The United States is the worst.  FALSE.  See above numbers and rates of cases and deaths.

 

O.K., then...

 

1) The United States has more COVID cases than the next FOUR countries combined.  TRUE.  788,920 vs 689,494 (Wow! I feel SO much better now! Wait, no I don't.)

2) The United States has more COVID deaths than any other country on earth.  TRUE.  42,000 vs 24,114 (ALMOST DOUBLE! Wow! America FIRST! - So proud!)

3) The United States is the WORST.  TRUE. Simple math. We have more covid cases and deaths than any other country on earth. (That's what trump gets to take to the ballot box.)

 

As for your context, ALL the credit goes to the United States medical community for saving actual lives, not to trump. The medical community gets high marks for survival rates (especially considering many hospitals are working with inadequate supplies and testing). Trump gets low marks for encouraging the spread of cases and for making the Govs compete with each other for supplies and test.  And don't be surprised to see another spike in the cases after trump has been encouraging people to gather in large numbers to protest stay at home orders. INSANITY!

 

I'm sure the republicans are really proud of the 43,442* Americans who so gallantly threw themselves on the sword in the last 1.5 months  to save the economy (oil is $11 a barrel today). Like Dan Patrick said, there are more important things than living. (especially if you don't have the medical resources of a Lt. Gov. wink, wink). 

 

You miss the point. Group these numbers around anyway you want, (4 countries, 5 countries, WTF difference does that make?) but it doesn't change the fact that trump has failed America by allowing us to lead the world in cases and deaths. I don't think America was destined to have the highest number of cases and the most deaths on earth. I think that happened because we got a slow start on testing, coordination and quarantining. Trump had a chance, through policy to curb the numbers. He blew it. He should own up to it. He should be made to pay for his "serious miscalculations and errors" on election night - and hopefully beyond.

 

But congrats on Americas total only surpassing the next 4 highest countries combined. 4 beautiful, fantastic. 5 nasty fake. 🙄

 

*3,442 more since I originally made the post, we'll be at 50,000 by this weekend, we might make it to 5 combined countries yet.

Edited April 21, 2020 by West Timer

[august948]

3 hours ago, West Timer said:

 

O.K., then...

 

1) The United States has more COVID cases than the next FOUR countries combined.  TRUE.  788,920 vs 689,494 (Wow! I feel SO much better now! Wait, no I don't.)

2) The United States has more COVID deaths than any other country on earth.  TRUE.  42,000 vs 24,114 (ALMOST DOUBLE! Wow! America FIRST! - So proud!)

3) The United States is the WORST.  TRUE. Simple math. We have more covid cases and deaths than any other country on earth. (That's what trump gets to take to the ballot box.)

 

As for your context, ALL the credit goes to the United States medical community for saving actual lives, not to trump. The medical community gets high marks for survival rates (especially considering many hospitals are working with inadequate supplies and testing). Trump gets low marks for encouraging the spread of cases and for making the Govs compete with each other for supplies and test.  And don't be surprised to see another spike in the cases after trump has been encouraging people to gather in large numbers to protest stay at home orders. INSANITY!

 

I'm sure the republicans are really proud of the 43,442* Americans who so gallantly threw themselves on the sword in the last 1.5 months  to save the economy (oil is $11 a barrel today). Like Dan Patrick said, there are more important things than living. (especially if you don't have the medical resources of a Lt. Gov. wink, wink). 

 

You miss the point. Group these numbers around anyway you want, (4 countries, 5 countries, WTF difference does that make?) but it doesn't change the fact that trump has failed America by allowing us to lead the world in cases and deaths. I don't think America was destined to have the highest number of cases and the most deaths on earth. I think that happened because we got a slow start on testing, coordination and quarantining. Trump had a chance, through policy to curb the numbers. He blew it. He should own up to it. He should be made to pay for his "serious miscalculations and errors" on election night - and hopefully beyond.

 

But congrats on Americas total only surpassing the next 4 highest countries combined. 4 beautiful, fantastic. 5 nasty fake. 🙄

 

*3,442 more since I originally made the post, we'll be at 50,000 by this weekend, we might make it to 5 combined countries yet.

 

Well, except that China's case numbers and death rate is ridiculously low by global standards.  If you apply the US death rate to the population of china (1,408,526,449 x .01227%) you get 172,815 deaths making China (not surprisingly) by far the global leader. 

[West Timer]

1 hour ago, august948 said:

 

Well, except that China's case numbers and death rate is ridiculously low by global standards.  If you apply the US death rate to the population of china (1,408,526,449 x .01227%) you get 172,815 deaths making China (not surprisingly) by far the global leader. 

 

Except that science doesn't care what you believe. All we have to go on is numbers. Everything else is guessing. Keep spinning and grinning and adding and subtracting and multiplying and I'm sure you will eventually convince yourself that no Americans actually died at all and that 22,000,000 didn't file for unemployment last week and that Houston's future has never been brighter with our $13 trump oil. 

 

It makes perfect sense to me that America would have the highest number of cases. We partied through spring break from coast to coast. It was just a hoax back in March, remember? And trump just tweeted about "liberation". The Georgia gov discovered 2 weeks ago that covid can be transmitted by people without symptoms (NBC was reporting that back in Jan). He's opening up gyms and nail salons on Friday.

 

The curve is flattening, but I wouldn't be surprised if we get another spike or two before we're done with it. Yes, I always expected that America was going to get it up the butt with that incompetent lunatic as president. But never thought I'd see things get this bad. 4 more years of THIS! No thanx!

 

BTW, you don't have to convince me that we can't trust China. But the majority of Americans don't trust trump either. Any country can spin numbers any way they want. That goes for America too. Even if China does have more cases and deaths than the U.S., coming in 2nd place doesn't make me feel any better about trump's decisions or the position we all find ourselves in. Neither would being anywhere on a top 10 death list. Even with trump as president, I thought we were more advanced than this.

 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2020/04/20/one-poll-number-that-could-haunt-trump-coronavirus/

https://thehill.com/homenews/administration/493534-poll-majority-of-americans-disapprove-of-trumps-handling-of

 

 

 

 

 

Oh look, as of 7pm America has over 4 times as many cases as the next highest country. And almost as many deaths as the next 3 countries combined.  

 

 

 

Edited April 22, 2020 by West Timer

[samagon]

so irrespective of the size of the population, we have to look at the total number of infections and deaths as the meter by which we judge various world leaders?

 

let me be the first to congratulate Kim Jong Un for being a peerless leader through this worldwide pandemic. they have 0 cases, and thus, 0 deaths among their population! truly a great leader.

 

honorable mentions should go out to the leader of Yemen, they've only got one infection. 

 

honestly, I doubt I'm the first to congratulate him on a really great job.

 

edit, we should also commend China for their great response with their military, not one single person in the PLA has been reported to have contracted CV19.

Edited April 22, 2020 by samagon

[Montrose1100]

Lets keep it civil folks. Political cartoons spamming the thread aren't making any points.

[Subdude]

WTI went negative this week for the first time.  I'm hoping and praying that this doesn't impact Houston like the crash in oil prices in the 1980s, where pretty much all construction stopped.  Right now of course it is too soon to tell, but a large amount of drilling activity has already been halted.  

 

 

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/20/business/stock-market-live-trading-coronavirus.html

[West Timer]

2 hours ago, samagon said:

so irrespective of the size of the population, we have to look at the total number of infections and deaths as the meter by which we judge various world leaders?

 

let me be the first to congratulate Kim Jong Un for being a peerless leader through this worldwide pandemic. they have 0 cases, and thus, 0 deaths among their population! truly a great leader.

 

honorable mentions should go out to the leader of Yemen, they've only got one infection. 

 

honestly, I doubt I'm the first to congratulate him on a really great job.

 

edit, we should also commend China for their great response with their military, not one single person in the PLA has been reported to have contracted CV19.

 

Judging world leaders by # of infections? Listen, I was no fan of our leader's p-grabbing, Ukraine-bribing, election-rigging, ally-abandoning, criminal-pardoning, nation-dividing, veteran-insulting, race-baiting and baby-caging even before I ever heard of c19. But this latest disgraceful failure is really hitting home. I want my Caydon towers.

 

So what's your point? North Korea and Yemen are worse than America? Captain Obvious. But even if Trump isn't the worst leader in the world, his handling of this crisis is lame by First World Country standards. I wouldn't put too much pride in the fact that America's handling of c19 is likely better than 3rd world nations and banana republics. I mean, if that's all you've got to defend trump, you're screwed. Trump is better than Un. Fair enough. But maybe you should raise your standards. "Trump is better than Un" will make a terrible bumper sticker.

 

Maybe we should aim higher. Germany and South Korean leaders seem to be doing a pretty good job not sacrificing segments of their population in the name of retaining power. Maybe America should follow their example.

 

We're probably going to have 1,000,000 cases and 50,000 deaths of c19 by this weekend. I don't know how that compares in percentages to the rest of the world and it doesn't even matter. It's unacceptable that America has so many cases and deaths when we had so much warning before the first case was detected.  America's death count did not have to be this high. Other countries have proven that.

 

It's possible that America didn't have to be in first or second or even third place in cases and deaths if the virus had been taken a bit more seriously back in Jan or Feb. Hard to imagine any leader recklessly and irresponsibly urging people to gather in large numbers to protest the best safety measures we currently have. Not sure if KJU or Yemen's leader did that, but we know for sure trump is doing it. And we know why he's doing it. Gotta keep them MAGAhats out of the trash can for as long as possible even if means killing granny.

 

Edited April 22, 2020 by West Timer

[samagon]

 

1 hour ago, West Timer said:

 

So what your point? North Korea and Yemen are worse than America? Captain Obvious. But even if Trump isn't the worst leader in the world, his handling of this crisis is lame by First World Country standards. I wouldn't put too much pride in the fact that America's handling of c19 is likely better than 3rd world nations and banana republics. I mean, if that's all you got to defend trump, you're screwed. Trump is better than Un. Fair enough. But maybe you should raise your standards.

 

Maybe we should aim higher. Germany and South Korean leaders seem to be doing a pretty good job not sacrificing segments of their population in the name of retaining power. Maybe America should follow their example.

 

We're probably going to have 50,000 deaths of c19 by this weekend. I don't how that compares in percentages to the rest of the world and it doesn't even matter. It's unacceptable that America has so many deaths when we had so much warning before the first case was detected.  America's death count did not have to be this high. Other countries have proven that.

 

It's possible that America didn't have to be in first or second or even third place in cases and deaths if the virus had been taken a bit more seriously back in Jan or Feb. Hard to imagine any leader urging people to gather in large numbers to protest the best safety measures we currently have. Not sure if KJU or Yemen's leader did that, but we know for sure trump is doing it. And we know why he's doing it. Gotta keep them MAGA hats out of the garbage for as long a possible.

 

 

well unfortunately, not any President can do on their own the things we need to do as a nation to be better. it will take longer than the pandemic to do. 

 

sure, our President deserves blame, but he can't be given all the blame. if you want to say he deserves all the blame then we can go back to the 2016 election and heap some blame on the DNC and Hillary for capturing defeat from the jaws of victory. and really, would Hillary have done a better job, had she been in this position? 

 

you see where this is getting us? absolutely no where.

 

the reality is that New York state and all of the north east is what is driving the entire countries numbers out of control. the top 3 states are NY, NJ, and MA. add those 3 states together and that's nearly half the cases in USA. Louisiana, Florida and some other southeast states were a hell of a lot more cavalier and stupid about their handling of this virus (they were having Mardi Gras parties, and kids were still going to spring break parties on the beach), yet there are far fewer cases in those states than in states where they took quick action.

 

how do you come to terms with this, while still blaming it all on the President?

 

furthermore, my whole point in that response went over your head. you said:

Quote

Except that science doesn't care what you believe. All we have to go on is numbers.

 

my response was that the numbers say NK and Yemen are the best. we both know that is a load of BS, but since you say we only can go by numbers.... well, there it is.

 

you say we should be aiming higher, citing Germany and SK. well, look at the rise in Singapore, they have had a stricter response than either of those two countries, yet they are facing an exponential curve (even if it took longer to start), so all this really does is bolster that it is far too early to start blaming the appropriate/inappropriate response. I hate that p-grabber as much as the next person, but it's too soon to blame him for everything.

Edited April 22, 2020 by samagon

[Houston19514]

It is ignorant, dishonest and pointless to compare raw numbers of infections and deaths without also factoring in the size of the population. For example, no serious person would suggest that 50,000 cases in Montana was a better result than 100,000 cases in New York.

 

                 Population         COVID       Per 1,000    COVID Deaths   Per 1,000

US:       330,625,701          826,248           2.5             43,442              0.13

Spain:     46,755,548            208,389             4.46             21,717                0.47

Italy:        60,473,516            183,957             3.04              24,648                0.41

France:    65,242.781           159,315             2.44              20,796                0.32

Germany: 83,742,152          149,044            1.78                 5127                 0.06

UK:             67,818,041         134,635            1.99             18,100                 0.27

Belgium: 11,580,103         41,889          3.62              6,262                 0.54

Canada:   37,679,832        39,598          1.05              1,834                 0.05

Netherlands: 17,127,78    35,026          2.04              4,054                 0.24

Switzerland: 8,642,719     28,268          3.04              1,478                 0.17

Portugal:    10,202,232     21,982          2.15                 785                 0.08

Ireland:         4,927,367     16,040          3.26                 730                 0.15

Sweden:     10,087,439     16,004         1.59               1,937                 0.19

Austria:       8,996,754       14,925         1.66                 510                  0.06

Israel:          8,629,831       14,326         1.66                 187                  0.02

 

 

 

Edited April 22, 2020 by Houston19514

[West Timer]

2 hours ago, samagon said:

I hate that p-grabber as much as the next person, but it's too soon to blame him for everything.

 

I got your response the first time. But I'm saying (again) that by any metric, (be they the false numbers of 3rd world nations or the more reliable numbers from our peer nations) trump's dismal performance in this crisis in unworthy of a nation of our stature. 

 

If blaming it all on trump helps in any way to get him out of the white house then I would say it absolutely IS getting us somewhere. As you know, Trump is a disaster on every level and long before c19 showed up. Coronavirus will likely be his greatest legacy of failure of all time by far. 45,000+ deaths in 2 months and an economic meltdown is nothing to sneeze at. People recover from p-grabbing, but people are dying by the thousands now, losing businesses, jobs and 401k's. No matter how much you want to compare American death rates to lesser countries (even if it's just for fun and to make a point), no place has more deaths on earth from c-19 than America the Beautiful. Trump owns it COMPLETELY. Yes, covid can and will be politicized by the left, just as it has been and will be by the right. The republicans can't wait to say that trump single-handedly cured c19 and fixed the economy. So, no, I have no problem countering it by saying he completely responsible for every last c19 death in America. Ying-Yang. Trump's election proved to me that people don't read the fine print. They vote based on whatever can be contained on a bumper sticker. So yes, all anyone needs to know is that America has the most covid deaths on earth and trump was in charge when it happened.

 

And BTW, it's really easy and logical to put all the blame a leader who:

 

• Spends the first weeks of infection ignoring it

• Once it looks like a polling liability, politicizing it and calling it a democrat hoax

• Minimizing the threat

• Shutting down agencies that were designed to fight pandemics

• Waiting too long to enact Federal mobilization efforts

• Ignores warnings from doctors and scientists

• Waiting too late to invoke The Defense Production Act

• Pushes an untested, unproven medication

• Forces Govs to compete for dwindling supplies

• Doesn't provide national testing

• Encourages people to gather in public and protest during the middle of the first spike of the pandemic

• Uses t.v. briefings to push his re-election campaign - at taxpayer expense.

• Spreads false information

• Risks further spread of virus and lives 

 

The bulk of the hotspots were coming from the the super densely populated northeastern states fast and with little warning. Now the biggest new clusters ARE coming from nursing homes and meatpacking plants in the midwest slowly and with plenty of warning. Republican govs and trump are ignoring the deaths and the risks and the lessons that should have been learned in NYC and are encouraging those very same states to get back to work. Kuddlow said today that the businesses where the virus is spreading shouldn't be held liable for customers and employees. PATHETIC! 

 

You want to give the NYC vicinity some of the blame? O.K. with me. But states do NOT have the same resources that the federal govt. has and trump spent a lot of time ignoring their request and accusing them of asking for supplies that they didn't need. Trump could have helped lower the rates of infection and death if he wanted to in NYC. He didn't want to. NY hates him, he hates them right back. And that personal hatred is reflected in those horrific numbers in addition to their population density. No matter how you want to frame it, it's a failure from the leadership at the top. The higher the office, the more of the blame they should get.

 

 

Edited April 22, 2020 by West Timer

[samagon]

52 minutes ago, West Timer said:

 

I got your response the first time. But I'm saying (again) that by any metric, (be they the false numbers of 3rd world nations or the more reliable numbers from our peer nations) trump's dismal performance in this crisis in unworthy of a nation of our stature. 

 

If blaming it all on trump helps in any way to get him out of the white house then I would say it absolutely IS getting us somewhere. As you know, Trump is a disaster on every level and long before c19 showed up. Coronavirus will likely be his greatest legacy of failure of all time by far. 45,000+ deaths in 2 months and an economic meltdown is nothing to sneeze at. People recover from p-grabbing, but people are dying by the thousands now, losing businesses, jobs and 401k's. No matter how much you want to compare American death rates to lesser countries (even if it's just for fun and to make a point), no place has more deaths on earth from c-19 than America the Beautiful. Trump owns it COMPLETELY. Yes, covid can and will be politicized by the left, just as it has been and will be by the right. The republicans can't wait to say that trump single-handedly cured c19 and fixed the economy. So, no, I have no problem countering it by saying he completely responsible for every last c19 death in America. Ying-Yang. Trump's election proved to me that people don't read the fine print. They vote based on whatever can be contained on a bumper sticker. So yes, all anyone needs to know is that America has the most covid deaths on earth and trump was in charge when it happened.

 

And BTW, it's really easy and logical to put all the blame a leader who:

 

• Spends the first weeks of infection ignoring it

• Once it looks like a polling liability, politicizing it and calling it a democrat hoax

• Minimizing the threat

• Shutting down agencies that were designed to fight pandemics

• Waiting too long to enact Federal mobilization efforts

• Ignores warnings from doctors and scientists

• Waiting too late to invoke The Defense Production Act

• Pushes an untested, unproven medication

• Forces Govs to compete for dwindling supplies

• Doesn't provide national testing

• Encourages people to gather in public and protest during the middle of the first spike of the pandemic

• Uses t.v. briefings to push his re-election campaign - at taxpayer expense.

• Spreads false information

• Risks further spread of virus and lives 

 

The bulk of the hotspots were coming from the the super densely populated northeastern states fast and with little warning. Now the biggest new clusters ARE coming from nursing homes and meatpacking plants in the midwest slowly and with plenty of warning. Republican govs and trump are ignoring the deaths and the risks and the lessons that should have been learned in NYC and are encouraging those very same states to get back to work. Kuddlow said today that the businesses where the virus is spreading shouldn't be held liable for customers and employees. PATHETIC! 

 

You want to give the NYC vicinity some of the blame? O.K. with me. But states do NOT have the same resources that the federal govt. has and trump spent a lot of time ignoring their request and accusing them of asking for supplies that they didn't need. Trump could have helped lower the rates of infection and death if he wanted to in NYC. He didn't want to. NY hates him, he hates them right back. And that personal hatred is reflected in those horrific numbers in addition to their population density. No matter how you want to frame it, it's a failure from the leadership at the top. The higher the office, the more of the blame they should get.

 

 

 

it's clear you're not considering anything aside from your desire to bash the President. you are more than welcome to it.

Edited April 22, 2020 by samagon

[West Timer]

7 hours ago, Houston19514 said:

It is ignorant, dishonest and pointless to compare raw numbers of infections and deaths without also factoring in the size of the population. For example, no serious person would suggest that 50,000 cases in Montana was a better result than 100,000 cases in New York.

 

                 Population         COVID       Per 1,000    COVID Deaths   Per 1,000

US:       330,625,701          826,248           2.5             43,442              0.13

Spain:     46,755,548            208,389             4.46             21,717                0.47

Italy:        60,473,516            183,957             3.04              24,648                0.41

France:    65,242.781           159,315             2.44              20,796                0.32

Germany: 83,742,152          149,044            1.78                 5127                 0.06

UK:             67,818,041         134,635            1.99             18,100                 0.27

Belgium: 11,580,103         41,889          3.62              6,262                 0.54

Canada:   37,679,832        39,598          1.05              1,834                 0.05

Netherlands: 17,127,78    35,026          2.04              4,054                 0.24

Switzerland: 8,642,719     28,268          3.04              1,478                 0.17

Portugal:    10,202,232     21,982          2.15                 785                 0.08

Ireland:         4,927,367     16,040          3.26                 730                 0.15

Sweden:     10,087,439     16,004         1.59               1,937                 0.19

Austria:       8,996,754       14,925         1.66                 510                  0.06

Israel:          8,629,831       14,326         1.66                 187                  0.02

 

 

 

 

Wrong, it's absolutely intelligent, honest and relevant that America is at the top of that list. It's no coincidence that the countries on that weird, outdated, incomplete chart are listed in order by cases (mostly), not per 1000. Those aren't just numbers to compare with each other, they are actual LIVES too. Not that republicans give a sht about human life anymore if it threatens the economy and it isn't THEM that's suffocating to death in their own snot. (Dan Patrick cough cough)

 

The number of cases (per 1,000) is a reflection of how the crisis is being managed. America has more cases per 1000 than most of the nations on that chart. Only 5 densely populated countries have more cases per 1000 than America. We still beat out 9 other peer nations. Sorry, that chart (wherever it came from) doesn't make me feel any better. I'm still certain that America would be lower on the "per 1000" section of that list if we had more competent leadership. I hate to think what that chart will look like after after we prematurely open up the country and after the next round of trump inspired "freedom" rallies. BTW, Georgia gyms, bowling alleys and barbershops are opening up on Friday.

 

The number of deaths (per 1,000) is a reflection of how good that country's medical infrastructure is. I feel pretty good that America is way down at number 9 on the (per 1000) death list, but that has absolutely nothing to do with anything trump has done. The govs are fighting tooth and nail for ventilators and PPE. Trump's filling the hospitals with patients, the doctors are saving the patients.

 

That chart is (mostly) ranked by human suffering and all it proves to me is that there is more human suffering in America than in any other country on earth. And that make us and our horrible, incompetent president the WORST (4 x worse than the next highest country) just like I said in my earlier post.

 

 

 

Edited April 23, 2020 by West Timer

[West Timer]

22 minutes ago, samagon said:

 

it's clear you're not considering anything aside from your desire to bash the President. you are more than welcome to it.

 

Yes I hate the president and I don't like passing up any opportunity to bash him. But I really am repulsed, frightened and angry about this covid situation. If this had happened under Hillary's presidency and we had the exact same death numbers as we have now and she was on t.v. everyday lying, promoting untested drugs, pathetically trying to convince people she was flawless and was unable to complete normal sentences like trump, I may not be here at HAIF expressing my frustrations, but I certainly would not be rushing to defend that kind of behavior or 46,996 preventable American deaths (as of 3:38pm) either.

Edited April 22, 2020 by West Timer

[august948]

2 minutes ago, West Timer said:

 

Yes I hate the president and I don't like passing up any opportunity to bash him. But I really am repulsed, frightened and angry about this covid situation. If this had happened under Hillary's presidency and we had the exact same death numbers as we have now and she was on t.v. everyday lying, promoting untested drugs, pathetically trying to convince people she was flawless and was unable to complete normal sentences like trump, I may not be here at HAIF expressing my frustrations, but I certainly would not be rushing to her defense either.

 

As I recall, you're repulsed and angry about any situation involving Trump, however tenuous.  Don't be frightened, though.  You'll get your chance to be heard on the matter come November.

[West Timer]

Just now, august948 said:

 

As I recall, you're repulsed and angry about any situation involving Trump, however tenuous.  Don't be frightened, though.  You'll get your chance to be heard on the matter come November.

 

I can't argue with that. I can't think of one way America is better off today than it was 4 years ago.

[samagon]

1 minute ago, West Timer said:

 

Yes I hate the president and I don't like passing up any opportunity to bash him. But I really am repulsed, frightened and angry about this covid situation. If this had happened under Hillary's presidency and we had the exact same death numbers as we have now and she was on t.v. everyday lying, promoting untested drugs, pathetically trying to convince people she was flawless and was unable to complete normal sentences like trump, I may not be here at HAIF expressing my frustrations, but I certainly would not be rushing to her defense either.

 

fair enough. I don't think anyone has tried to defend any of Trump's actions. he is a horrible President, there's no doubt about it.

 

it's also a fair statement that there is a lot going on that is outside of his control, such as the transmission and things like this.

[samagon]

so is the HPOU right, or is our County Judge right?

 

basically, is her requirement that we wear masks in public unconstitutional?

 

not that I go to strip clubs any longer, but I would assume owners of these establishments are paying very close attention to this.

 

hell, people who want to dress like Winnie the Pooh are paying attention to this.

[West Timer]

22 minutes ago, samagon said:

 

fair enough. I don't think anyone has tried to defend any of Trump's actions. he is a horrible President, there's no doubt about it.

 

it's also a fair statement that there is a lot going on that is outside of his control, such as the transmission and things like this.

I'll give you that there is a lot going on that is outside his control, but he could be slowing the transmissions with a national stay at home order if he wanted to. At very least, he could just stop tweeting encouragement for people to go out to mingle and protest in close proximity during this death spike. 

[august948]

6 hours ago, samagon said:

so is the HPOU right, or is our County Judge right?

 

basically, is her requirement that we wear masks in public unconstitutional?

 

not that I go to strip clubs any longer, but I would assume owners of these establishments are paying very close attention to this.

 

hell, people who want to dress like Winnie the Pooh are paying attention to this.

 

That's a good question.  I'm sure that's going to be circulating in the courts, and not just here.  Apparently, other cities in Texas and around the country have already issued similar orders (and oddly, the $1000 fine seems to be ubiquitous).  I'm sure we'll see lots of fireworks in the coming days at both the local and state levels.  I wouldn't be surprised if there is some revision to this order coming soon.  For example, most banks don't allow you to wear face coverings inside, for obvious reasons.  I'm sure there are other unconsidered consequences to this that will come out.

 

[gmac]

6 hours ago, West Timer said:

I'll give you that there is a lot going on that is outside his control, but he could be slowing the transmissions with a national stay at home order if he wanted to. At very least, he could just stop tweeting encouragement for people to go out to mingle and protest in close proximity during this death spike. 

 

Just how would that work? Martial law?

[samagon]

very interesting data.

 

https://www.economist.com/graphic-detail/2020/04/16/tracking-covid-19-excess-deaths-across-countries

 

what this article considers is that for a given period of time studied, there are a typical number of deaths. they are comparing the overages, not just in hospitals, but outside (that might not be recorded for a cause). the analysis doesn't really mention whether they are considering that the additional deaths might be caused by something unrelated that the person chose not to go to the hospital (a heart attack perhaps), and as a result, died.

[West Timer]

9 hours ago, gmac said:

 

Just how would that work? Martial law?

 

I'm not sure we need martial law anymore. At this point, about 8 in 10 Americans say they support measures that strongly advise people to stay at home and limit social interactions to 10 people or fewer.  Polls showing 80% of the country together on any issue are rare.  Finally, we now have an issue that unites most Democrats and Republicans. 

 

How would a national stay at home order work? I suppose it would work the same way it works at local and state levels. The only difference is that it comes from the federal govt. I don't think any stay at home order, local or national, can ever truly be enforced. People will violate it for sure and they will rarely get arrested or ticketed, but it will keep MOST people at home. It will keep stadiums and theaters closed. And that will likely keep the transmissions lower. Trump has the power to persuade a lot of people. A national stay at home order coming from him, may not be enforceable, but it would definitely keep the transmissions lower than twitting about "liberation".

 

 

https://www.kff.org/?gclid=CjwKCAjw-YT1BRAFEiwAd2WRttcjq9YvJn8NTmFPOaL8UGPH_8VpVV5-agy1mtIfkZuePd14D68gLBoCJj0QAvD_BwE

 

https://www.foxnews.com/us/americans-support-extending-coronavirus-stay-at-home-orders

 

https://www.newsweek.com/americans-back-national-stay-home-order-1496997

 

https://apnews.com/9ed271ca13012d3b77a2b631c1979ce1

 

https://thehill.com/homenews/state-watch/494028-poll-more-than-70-percent-of-americans-support-stay-at-home-orders

 

Edited April 23, 2020 by West Timer

[samagon]

the question is, does the national government have the authority to restrict movement?

 

https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/politics-news/can-federal-government-order-national-quarantine-n1162036

 

sure, there's an Obama era law that gives the CDC authority to detain people that are suspected of having something, but there isn't any precedent for this to be done for everyone at a national level.

 

here's the referenced law from the CDC:

https://www.cdc.gov/quarantine/aboutlawsregulationsquarantineisolation.html

 

Quote

Under 42 Code of Federal Regulations parts 70 and 71, CDC is authorized to detain, medically examine, and release persons arriving into the United States and traveling between states who are suspected of carrying these communicable diseases.

 

it is pretty specific in the scope, based on my limited knowledge, and some early morning googling, I don't think the national government can issue a full countrywide lockdown.

 

here's an article that corroborates my assumptions:

https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2020/03/why-theres-no-national-lockdown/609127/

 

Quote

Even if the president desired to take stronger action, America’s national-level response would be hampered in part by its federalist system. Constitutional authority for ordering major public-health interventions, such as mass quarantines and physical distancing, lies primarily with U.S. states and localities via their “police powers”—a drastic difference from the national authorities of countries such as China and Italy.

 

anyway. lockdown at the national level isn't in the cards. stronger recommendations probably will be starting later this year when we start to see the second wave. which will happen. let's just hope there are anti-body tests, and therapeutic drugs, and more testing.

 

realistically, more faster and accurate testing are what's really going to help slow the spread more than anything. that and face masks. don't joint the anti mask league.

[BeerNut]

5 hours ago, samagon said:

anyway. lockdown at the national level isn't in the cards. stronger recommendations probably will be starting later this year when we start to see the second wave. which will happen. let's just hope there are anti-body tests, and therapeutic drugs, and more testing.

 

Hopefully it's not like the second wave of Spanish Flu....

[mkultra25]

22 hours ago, august948 said:

 I wouldn't be surprised if there is some revision to this order coming soon.  For example, most banks don't allow you to wear face coverings inside, for obvious reasons. 

 

I expect that particular prohibition will be temporarily relaxed without much fanfare. A couple of weeks ago I was at a Chase branch, and they were redirecting most people that tried to enter the lobby to the drive-thru for most common transactions. If you needed to actually talk to a banker for something that wasn't easily handled at the drive-thru, they would let you in, but they weren't letting people just wander around the lobby and were enforcing social distancing. All of the bank staff that I saw were wearing masks, and about half of the handful of customers that were admitted to the lobby while I was there were likewise wearing masks. Nobody said a word to those customers about their masks. 

[august948]

5 minutes ago, mkultra25 said:

 

I expect that particular prohibition will be temporarily relaxed without much fanfare. A couple of weeks ago I was at a Chase branch, and they were redirecting most people that tried to enter the lobby to the drive-thru for most common transactions. If you needed to actually talk to a banker for something that wasn't easily handled at the drive-thru, they would let you in, but they weren't letting people just wander around the lobby and were enforcing social distancing. All of the bank staff that I saw were wearing masks, and about half of the handful of customers that were admitted to the lobby while I was there were likewise wearing masks. Nobody said a word to those customers about their masks. 

 

Good, I'm glad to hear that....

 

 

I might need to make a large withdrawal.

[august948]

Make sure you are wearing your bananas come Monday...

 

[Ross]

And, be careful what you touch when you are out and about

 

[hindesky]