I-45 Rebuild (North Houston Highway Improvement Project)

[JLWM8609]

I would think replacing the elevated structure with a depressed freeway would more than offset the loss of a few street crossings.  I would happily make that trade.

 

 

TxDOT has a history of coming through Third Ward and cutting off parts of the neighborhood from the other. 288 split up Riverside Terrace pretty good. I heard some oldtimers talk about how traveling down Rosedale, Wichita, and other E-W streets in Riverside Terrace made E-W travel through the neighborhood easy until 288 came through and limited crossings to Wheeler, Blodgett, Southmore, and Binz/Calumet  At least with 59, the highway was elevated so the street grid underneath remained intact without splitting up the neighborhood. Now they want to depress I-69/US 59 and once again cut up the grid in Third Ward.

 

Like I said before, there was much ballyhooing that the Pierce Elevated disrupted the grid between Midtown and Downtown and needed to come down. Well, Third Ward will find their street grid disrupted once again. Where's the outcry about that from the familiar few here? Or is it ok because that icky Pierce Elevated will no longer offend the sensibilities of Midtown residents and that's all that matters?

 

TxDOT can depress the freeway and keep the street crossings at the same time. The intersections of Memorial and Capitol Ave, Baker and Piedmont, and Ralph McGill Blvd and Courtlandt St. over I-75/85 in Atlanta all come to mind as examples.

 

I plan to be at the meeting on April 28th at HCC to weigh in.

Edited April 24, 2015 by JLWM8609

[Triton]

 

 

Some other random things I remember. The Fannin exit off 59 south is being eliminated. There's an alternative, but I don't remember the road, so it looks like Alameda might be a big funnel for people traveling to the museum district and medical center.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[samagon]

 

 

I plan to be at the meeting on April 28th at HCC to weigh in.

 

Looking at the render that Triton put up, there's a very good reason they aren't going to be able to maintain that many through streets. the 288 > 59s ramp makes it impossible.

 

I agree with you, there's a lot of streets there that are very convenient to use, and even though there's a huge freeway overhead, the streets below are maintained.

 

I doubt I'll make any of the meetings, but I hope that there's enough feedback that they find another way to configure that ramp so they can keep the neighborhood more contiguous.

[IronTiger]

TxDOT has a history of coming through Third Ward and cutting off parts of the neighborhood from the other. 288 split up Riverside Terrace pretty good. I heard some oldtimers talk about how traveling down Rosedale, Wichita, and other E-W streets in Riverside Terrace made E-W travel through the neighborhood easy until 288 came through and limited crossings to Wheeler, Blodgett, Southmore, and Binz/Calumet  At least with 59, the highway was elevated so the street grid underneath remained intact without splitting up the neighborhood. Now they want to depress I-69/US 59 and once again cut up the grid in Third Ward.

 

Like I said before, there was much ballyhooing that the Pierce Elevated disrupted the grid between Midtown and Downtown and needed to come down. Well, Third Ward will find their street grid disrupted once again. Where's the outcry about that from the familiar few here? Or is it ok because that icky Pierce Elevated will no longer offend the sensibilities of Midtown residents and that's all that matters?

 

TxDOT can depress the freeway and keep the street crossings at the same time. The intersections of Memorial and Capitol Ave, Baker and Piedmont, and Ralph McGill Blvd and Courtlandt St. over I-75/85 in Atlanta all come to mind as examples.

 

I plan to be at the meeting on April 28th at HCC to weigh in.

I agree to an extent. The whole "remove the Pierce Elevated" always reeks of yuppie sensibilities/NIMBYs and the subtle "put it through the poor neighborhoods" business that freeways originally were saddled with, and that's not even counting the fact that the Pierce Elevated doesn't actually disturb the grid like 59 currently does (near the downtown area). Most streets and even their beloved light rail goes right under it.

 

That being said, the Pierce was an over-capacity, narrow highway. Lanes squeezed into just three lanes with no inner shoulder, and it would be unrealistic to expand the Pierce through double-decking or widening. The fact that they built mid-rises on the same block of the Pierce eliminated any realistic chance that the Pierce could be sunken and widened, but even that would be impossible since 59 was sunken in that part too. 

 

I sincerely hope that the whole project is actually designed to improve traffic flow and capacity and not just appease a bunch of whiny folks within a six-block radius of the Pierce. As it stands, the whole 59/288/45 intersection is...complicated.

Edited April 24, 2015 by IronTiger

[Montrose1100]

Sorry lock I didn't intend to be agressive towards you, it's meant towards the idea.

[IronTiger]

If the whole widening of 59/45 goes through and that gets sunken and turned into a deck park, then how could the Pierce Park integrate with that at all?

[H-Town Man]

I worry about the huge S-curve that I-45 will have to make around north downtown, followed by an abrupt 90 south of downtown. When you put such strong bends in a road, it is bound to slow traffic, because when people lose their sight lines or have to make a hard turn they instinctively slow down. Yes it has some bends around downtown now, but they are much more gradual.

I also shudder to think of the effect that any accident will have on the 28-lane spaghetti bowl north of downtown. One set of flashing police lights will have everyone hitting the brakes and craning their necks.

My last concern is that with all these sunken and partially covered freeways, you lose part of the joy of driving that is a big part of living in Houston, rush hour traffic notwithstanding. Virtually flying past downtown on elevated roadways has a way of making a person feel like a king. Sitting in traffic in a dark enclosure will have a wearisome effect that we have not experienced to that degree.

Other than that, the plan is exciting.

[lockmat]

I worry about the huge S-curve that I-45 will have to make around north downtown, followed by an abrupt 90 south of downtown. When you put such strong bends in a road, it is bound to slow traffic, because when people lose their sight lines or have to make a hard turn they instinctively slow down. Yes it has some bends around downtown now, but they are much more gradual.

I also shudder to think of the effect that any accident will have on the 28-lane spaghetti bowl north of downtown. One set of flashing police lights will have everyone hitting the brakes and craning their necks.

My last concern is that with all these sunken and partially covered freeways, you lose part of the joy of driving that is a big part of living in Houston, rush hour traffic notwithstanding. Virtually flying past downtown on elevated roadways has a way of making a person feel like a king. Sitting in traffic in a dark enclosure will have a wearisome effect that we have not experienced to that degree.

Other than that, the plan is exciting.

I like your last concern, that will be sad to go, but there's still other opportunities for that.

 

As far as your concern for the "bends", they said the standard for those is now 45 mph, higher than it was before. And just like they did at the 290/610 interchange, they're forcing people to decide what route you're going to take well in advance of an "intersection", which will create less need for "crossing over" lanes at the last second to take the route needed. Also from what I saw once two freeways merge, everyone will have their own lane, so there won't be any merging. That may not be the case for every single one, I'm not sure, but it was for the ones I saw last night.

 

But yeah, all those lanes in one place will at the least create more opportunities for rubber necking.

Edited April 24, 2015 by lockmat

[cloud713]

Maybe put up barriers between the individual highways to prevent people from rubber necking across 28 lanes?

[lockmat]

Maybe put up barriers between the individual highways to prevent people from rubber necking across 28 lanes?

 

 

I've kind of thought of that before. At first, it doesn't seem cost effective, but when you consider that it would prevent traffic from slowing down, it might be. After all, the whole reason for this project is to produce enough capacity for the future and increase traffic flow.

 

Seriously, submit the idea to them via email, it's on their website. We need voices.

[cloud713]

The 69S to 45N flyover ramp.. Connect any trail system by means of that. But yeah. I agree with Montrose that saving the pierce is counter productive to what we were trying to achieve in the first place and it would be better suited as green space on the ground, maybe with a few strategically placed elevated platforms/skyline viewing areas that could host events either on top of or in the shade provided below..

[Luminare]

I've kind of thought of that before. At first, it doesn't seem cost effective, but when you consider that it would prevent traffic from slowing down, it might be. After all, the whole reason for this project is to produce enough capacity for the future and increase traffic flow.

 

Seriously, submit the idea to them via email, it's on their website. We need voices.

 

All barriers should be at least 6' height. That includes the edge barriers, middle barriers, etc...

 

The best example of a tall barrier on the edge is on 610 going through Bellaire. Thats how all highways should be imo....oh if I ruled the world!

[cloud713]

Hmm, interesting! I'll have to check out the website and submit a few suggestions.

[cspwal]

Maybe save one of the spans, make it an elevated viewing platform/greenspace - with a covered market type area underneath

[lockmat]

All barriers should be at least 6' height. That includes the edge barriers, middle barriers, etc...

 

The best example of a tall barrier on the edge is on 610 going through Bellaire. Thats how all highways should be imo....oh if I ruled the world!

 

Those are on the outside shoulder side, right? Are they more for noise? Either way, I would also encourage you to send them a comment. They indirectly confirmed to me that the squeaky wheel is considered more.

[Luminare]

Those are on the outside shoulder side, right? Are they more for noise? Either way, I would also encourage you to send them a comment. They indirectly confirmed to me that the squeaky wheel is considered more.

 

It was put up for both noise and aesthetics. So not only do you get the reduction in sound but also you don't have to see the highway from your own window...unless your in a second story of course. On the freeway though it would a good way of keep drivers more focused on the road in front instead of rubbernecking everywhere! I remember when being on Highways in Europe and when you were in more densely packed areas you would sometimes see high barriers on shoulders. With that being said though I think they should also apply these to medians.

 

I believe the saying is: the squeaky wheel always gets the most oil which is very true.

[samagon]

I sincerely hope that the whole project is actually designed to improve traffic flow and capacity and not just appease a bunch of whiny folks within a six-block radius of the Pierce. As it stands, the whole 59/288/45 intersection is...complicated.

 

I really have to agree having thought about it more.

 

I'm not sure if I said it yesterday, but the way the new configuration reads to me is traffic still going north on 45 when people merge from 59.

 

the current configuration has 2 lanes from 59s that marrow into 1 lane, which then converge into 2 lanes from 45, and from 59n it just merges 1 lane into the 45 traffic. and you get 3 lanes overall.

 

now, you get 2 lanes coming off 59s to merge with 2 lanes of 45, which narrows to 3 lanes anyway. not to mention if you look upstream on 45, exit for 59s, exit for 59n, and exit for DT destinations. that looks like it will be a whole pile of suck.

 

I just don't see this being a win for traffic.

 

It's a win for midtown with the removal of the pierce, it's a kind of win for east downtown, if they get that cover park. It's a push/loss for north of downtown, and an absolute loss for 3rd ward.

 

what really kind of gets my nose smelling weird things, I read somewhere (maybe swamplot, maybe on a news outlet) that the plan is supposed to be good for growth up to about 2040 (I hope someone finds conflicting information), as presented, this is just the best plan they have, it's not a guarantee to happen. say this does get approved if they start digging before 2020, I'd be shocked, if they finished before 2025 I'd be even more shocked.

 

so this is a freeway plan that is going to cost billions, and completely butt *bad word redacted* traffic for 5 years around downtown, all for just 15 years of use? 

 

All this really comes out to in the end is getting rid of the pierce elevated, at least by my math. Which as slick was quick to point out, it was a bad idea when he had it, now that we've spent millions of dollars of tax payer money and this is the best proposal, from my armchair it appears to still a bad idea.

Edited April 24, 2015 by samagon

[Luminare]

I really have to agree having thought about it more.

 

I'm not sure if I said it yesterday, but the way the new configuration reads to me is traffic still going north on 45 when people merge from 59.

 

the current configuration has 2 lanes from 59s that marrow into 1 lane, which then converge into 2 lanes from 45, and from 59n it just merges 1 lane into the 45 traffic. and you get 3 lanes overall.

 

now, you get 2 lanes coming off 59s to merge with 2 lanes of 45, which narrows to 3 lanes anyway. not to mention if you look upstream on 45, exit for 59s, exit for 59n, and exit for DT destinations. that looks like it will be a whole pile of suck.

 

I just don't see this being a win for traffic.

 

It's a win for midtown with the removal of the pierce, it's a kind of win for east downtown, if they get that cover park. It's a push/loss for north of downtown, and an absolute loss for 3rd ward.

 

what really kind of gets my nose smelling weird things, I read somewhere (maybe swamplot, maybe on a news outlet) that the plan is supposed to be good for growth up to about 2040 (I hope someone finds conflicting information), as presented, this is just the best plan they have, it's not a guarantee to happen. say this does get approved if they start digging before 2020, I'd be shocked, if they finished before 2025 I'd be even more shocked.

 

so this is a freeway plan that is going to cost billions, and completely butt *bad word redacted* traffic for 5 years around downtown, all for just 15 years of use? 

 

All this really comes out to in the end is getting rid of the pierce elevated, at least by my math. Which as slick was quick to point out, it was a bad idea when he had it, now that we've spent millions of dollars of tax payer money and this is the best proposal, from my armchair it appears to still a bad idea.

 

I understand the concerns, but really when has any widening or rebuild really been good for traffic lol. This is more for organization of routes and trying untangle unneeded bottle necks. Hopefully with this push of rerouting 45 it might also help push the diversification of transportation in the city in general. That's the only way you can fight it. We really do have an awesome highway network that should always be improved upon, but what kills it all is the simple fact that we have to many people using the highways in the first place. Highways should be used for through traffic and city to city traffic. Not the single way of getting around the city itself. Maybe this reroute will give the city more confidence to explore reorganizing the road infrastructure in general (once the general plan is created of course). We can't just throw all the eggs into one basket. We need true boulevards, true parkways, and true speedways that aren't highways but are planned for high volumes of traffic moving from one major area to another.

Edited April 24, 2015 by Luminare

[samagon]

oh yeah, and how many people are going to exit 45n on pease, race up pease as fast as they can, then enter 45n on the other side of downtown, same can be said of southbound 45 traffic onto jefferson.

 

would be interesting to see them go a little nuts and just dump 2 lanes of the city bound i10 and i45 onto bagby right at the post office, and carry the other 2 lanes up to mckinney/walker. and rather than have houston go into henner over the bayou, push it into mckinney/walker as well. they could add an exit near the 45/59/288 to downtown as well from and going north using some of the existing ROW from the pierce.

 

just get rid of the spur on top of the bayou and the connection they are making from houston to henner, and REALLY open up some greenspace right next to downtown.

Edited April 24, 2015 by samagon

[cspwal]

They do that already.  It can be much faster, since you can use the downtown connector ramp instead of the mainlanes

[tigereye]

Just a random thought...

 

Once upon a time, the East End Management District was pushing an idea for EaDo Promenade on the abandoned surface of what was Bastrop St. Original renderings showed a outdoor promenade lined with shopts, restaurants, water features and a focal point called Shenzen Garden. Renderings even came complete with KISS on stage lol. That idea turning into Sister Cities Promenade, which then became what it is today, a jogging trail. 

 

http://houston.culturemap.com/news/real-estate/02-01-11-sister-cities-promendade-plans-for-an-international-park-grow-around-the-dynamo-new-stadium/

 

With the new 45/69 combo trenched expressway, hopefully the possibility of 9 block-long deck park could resurrect the original vision of EaDo Promenade. The site would border GRB, BBVA and MMP ...seems like the perfect spot for EaDo Promenade, Part II

 

 

Edited April 24, 2015 by tigereye

[Sparrow]

Midtown just went up a class. Supersized Downtown-Midtown will have a new center--the views coming up 45 South will be simply amazing. What an brilliant piece of urban planning this plan is. It expands the Downtown area by annexing Midtown by removing the perceived differentiation the Pierce has caused. It provides the framework for major parks along the Bayou and over the freeways.

[IronTiger]

I don't like the plan so much anymore. The whole thing looks like bowing to yuppies in the Midtown/Downtown area to remove the Pierce Elevated, all while:

 

- Screwing up traffic even further in the area, including adding a bunch of nasty new curves to I-45

- Cutting into less fortunate neighborhoods to appease said yuppies who don't like the Pierce Elevated (talk about robbing from the poor and giving to the rich, eh?)

- Wasting taxpayer money to build some mega-tunnel in connection with removing the Pierce Elevated (and you know, doing everything else)

- Depriving any pleasure from motorists of seeing Houston from an elevated point of view

 

...and then some fools have the gall to want to turn the Pierce Elevated structure into a park, completely negating the original idea of removing it. 

 

That being said, I think *some* of the plan has merit: straightening out Interstate 10 near UH-D isn't a bad plan, really.

Edited April 25, 2015 by IronTiger

[H-Town Man]

It kind of reminds me of removing the city walls of Vienna in the 1800's, and replacing it with a bunch of parks, the Ringstrasse, which then becomes arguably the best part of the city. Of course that was already a dense city, not a city that aspired to density.

Still, it seems like if Houston has any chance of ever being a tourism-worthy town, it would require opening up the west side to the bayou and letting that develop. Otherwise it will always be the town that looks awesome to drive through on your way from LA to New Orleans on your cross-country road trip in college.

Edited April 25, 2015 by H-Town Man

[Montrose1100]

I don't like the plan so much anymore. The whole thing looks like bowing to yuppies in the Midtown/Downtown area to remove the Pierce Elevated, all while:

- Screwing up traffic even further in the area, including adding a bunch of nasty new curves to I-45

- Cutting into less fortunate neighborhoods to appease said yuppies who don't like the Pierce Elevated (talk about robbing from the poor and giving to the rich, eh?)

- Wasting taxpayer money to build some mega-tunnel in connection with removing the Pierce Elevated (and you know, doing everything else)

- Depriving any pleasure from motorists of seeing Houston from an elevated point of view

...and then some fools have the gall to want to turn the Pierce Elevated structure into a park, completely negating the original idea of removing it.

That being said, I think *some* of the plan has merit: straightening out Interstate 10 near UH-D isn't a bad plan, really.

Traffic will be a concern as always. I honestly have thought for years they should put up those bendy rubber barriers they have before the toll plazas (like on the beltway), on I-10 to the second I-45 left exit signs. What will be my first grey hair are the people who line jump on the 45 southbound lane. Also the 59 exit on 610 heading north from Bellaire. They not only cause the lined up traffic to be delayed, but also the lanes on the current highway to slow down dramatically. That ties into also needing a 6" barrier in the median to prevent/eliminate rubbernecking.

That being said, the traffic on each freeway as it approaches downtown is already slowed down drastically due to the interchange. Hopefully re-routing 45 around the eastern portion of Downtown will prove to help traffic flow. I don't understand the argument about the neighborhoods, every direction of Downtown has already seen the beginning if not total gentrification of the neighborhoods. Sinking the I-69/I-45 super cluster would help to connect Downtown and the East End. Getting rid of the pierce would be the icing on the cake, but if they sank it below grade it would also do wonders.

Edit. Depriving motorists of a view is a a blessing in disguise. You shouldn't be gawking at the skyline. Catching a glimpse of it out of the corner of your eye is great but your eyes should be on the road at all times.

Edited April 25, 2015 by Montrose1100

[Montrose1100]

Maybe save one of the spans, make it an elevated viewing platform/greenspace - with a covered market type area underneath

Or we could save every column, but get rid of the platform, and turn the whole stretch into a ground green belt. It will be an ode to the drestruction of neighborhoods and cities by highways. And then we can sell pieces of the platform to museums and universities around the globe like the Berlin Wall.

[IronTiger]

Or we could save every column, but get rid of the platform, and turn the whole stretch into a ground green belt. It will be an ode to the drestruction of neighborhoods and cities by highways. And then we can sell pieces of the platform to museums and universities around the globe like the Berlin Wall.

Please please please tell me that was mostly sarcasm.

[BigFootsSocks]

I think he's super cereal

[Montrose1100]

Please please please tell me that was mostly sarcasm.

Yeah sorry I have been pretty bitchy lately.

[barracuda]

I'm all for demolishing it. Put in a parkway with dedicated bike lanes and maybe some nice landscaped sidewalks or park-like areas. The structure itself is an eyesore, and the value of the land alongside it would skyrocket if demo'd. 

Edited April 26, 2015 by barracuda