Crime In Downtown

[ricco67]

Sorry that you had to witness that ttu. Not a good way to start your day, is it ?

While I would agree, its better than how it ended for the other guy.

[TheNiche]

While I would agree, its better than how it ended for the other guy.

I doubt it. ...but that's just me, and I'm a believer in the concept of a black void following death rather than a hell occupied by the suicidal sort among other misfits.

[ricco67]

I doubt it. ...but that's just me, and I'm a believer in the concept of a black void following death rather than a hell occupied by the suicidal sort among other misfits.

Umm...

Yeah.

But there is the whole impacting with the ground thing. The sudden deceleration onto a hard surface would ruin anyone's day.

[TheNiche]

Umm...

Yeah.

But there is the whole impacting with the ground thing. The sudden deceleration onto a hard surface would ruin anyone's day.

I know this sounds creepy, but I'm not going to tip-toe around it... If the sudden deceleration destroys enough brain cells quickly enough--as it will at critical velocity--then the pain cannot possibly last for very long or even necessarily be that intense. I'd think that the anticipation of impact would be more stressful than the impact itself. I've had days (maybe lots of them) that I've probably felt more pain than that guy did. And certainly the psychological effect on others of killing oneself in public has got to be significant. I'd definitely be willing to argue that the experience of witnessing or even being associated with a suicidal person is more impactful than the suicide itself on the person committing it, if carried out efficiently.

One way or the other, I'd argue that ttutrav has had a worse day than the jumper.

[crunchtastic]

One way or the other, I'd argue that ttutrav has had a worse day than the jumper.

My closest friend has dealt with this stuff for years in clinical practice, and is now chief of staff at a rehab hospital in Austin.

The witness had a much harder time of it than the jumper.

Philosophically, it's not a popular view, but taking one's life is the ultimate act of self-awareness. Free will was god's gift.

Or not.

[ricco67]

I know this sounds creepy, but I'm not going to tip-toe around it... If the sudden deceleration destroys enough brain cells quickly enough--as it will at critical velocity--then the pain cannot possibly last for very long or even necessarily be that intense. I'd think that the anticipation of impact would be more stressful than the impact itself. I've had days (maybe lots of them) that I've probably felt more pain than that guy did. And certainly the psychological effect on others of killing oneself in public has got to be significant. I'd definitely be willing to argue that the experience of witnessing or even being associated with a suicidal person is more impactful than the suicide itself on the person committing it, if carried out efficiently.

One way or the other, I'd argue that ttutrav has had a worse day than the jumper.

I'm not doubting that at all.

Having known a number of people with traumatic experiences (Car accidents, etc), people rarely remember the actual impact/event. Most of such people will only remember up to 30 seconds before impact.

In one case, my girlfriend (at the time), lost two days of memories PRIOR the accident and one day after her accident.

I gained in the fact that she didn't remember my forgetting to buy groceries and pick up her dry cleaning the previous day like she asked; which was worth losing my car over.

[20thStDad]

I know this sounds creepy, but I'm not going to tip-toe around it... If the sudden deceleration destroys enough brain cells quickly enough--as it will at critical velocity--then the pain cannot possibly last for very long or even necessarily be that intense. I'd think that the anticipation of impact would be more stressful than the impact itself. I've had days (maybe lots of them) that I've probably felt more pain than that guy did. And certainly the psychological effect on others of killing oneself in public has got to be significant. I'd definitely be willing to argue that the experience of witnessing or even being associated with a suicidal person is more impactful than the suicide itself on the person committing it, if carried out efficiently.

One way or the other, I'd argue that ttutrav has had a worse day than the jumper.

The key to that working is going head first or horizontal. Feet first and you have some chance of the head not making impact, and remembering and feeling.

[EMME]

Yeah, he landed right next to my car as I was driving up Louisiana to work. He jumped from the parking garage. I stopped and got out in that parking lot next to the Wedge Tower Garage and started to go over to him, but a security guard was already there and had called 911. Wasn't much anyone could do for him. The police arrived about a minute later and traffic was being directed around him; I left as I didn't want to be in the way. Pretty disturbing to be cruising into work and seeing a body drop out of the sky.

Be very kind to yourself ttutrav. You can expect some post trauma from that. I am so sorry you had to witness that and I am glad that you are talking about it. That will help lessen the trauma you experienced. Thanks for posting.

[TheNiche]

The key to that working is going head first or horizontal. Feet first and you have some chance of the head not making impact, and remembering and feeling.

Terminal velocity for someone aligned vertically with the ground is about 160-180 mph. That's the same relative speed to a head-on collision of two vehicles traveling 80-90 mph, and those kinds of crashes are very deadly. The difference, for a jumper, is that they impact solid concrete. I'm not going to say that the jumper won't feel anything, but I'd suspect that between the adrenaline rush and the instantaneous sensory overload the jumper really wouldn't feel much. One way or the other, the jumper certainly won't remember or dwell on it for as long as the witness will. PTSD and depression is a common result, and that'll stick with a witness for a long, long time. Even first responders and the ER staff are affected.

The comment about an efficient suicide really had a lot more to do with someone who is serious about it and that will do the job right the first time. There are lots of suicide attempts where people really just want attention; sometimes that works, but oftentimes not. There are plenty of other attempts where people seem to ignore important aspects of their anatomy and only end up maimed or head injured. Those are probably more painful to the individual than to society, especially if they really wanted to die and figured out that suicide was just one more aspect of life that they sucked at.

[EMME]

Not to be judgmental here, but don't you think you guys may be being a little insensitive? I hope ttu is not reading all this.

[TheNiche]

Not to be judgmental here, but don't you think you guys may be being a little insensitive? I hope ttu is not reading all this.

On the contrary, I consider my comments to be appropriately sensitive. Someone who kills themselves in private makes a decision for themselves. Someone who kills themselves in public view makes a decision for themselves, but that decision inflicts far greater damage to others than to themselves. I consider it something that is in between aggravated assault and rape on the spectrum of crimes, and I do consider him or her a victim. If ttutrav begins to manifest symptoms of PTSD or depression, then the first step in seeking treatment is to recognize that something with their world went awry, that it was beyond their control, and that his or her feelings are common for people with similar experiences. These conditions are treatable, but not for someone that can't recognize the symptoms or where they might be coming from. That's why talking about it frankly, openly and objectively is important.

Edited May 14, 2009 by TheNiche

[EMME]

On the contrary, I consider my comments to be appropriately sensitive. Someone who kills themselves in private makes a decision for themselves. Someone who kills themselves in public view makes a decision for themselves, but that decision inflicts far greater damage to others than to themselves. I consider it something that is in between aggravated assault and rape on the spectrum of crimes, and I do consider him or her a victim. If ttutrav begins to manifest symptoms of PTSD or depression, then the first step in seeking treatment is to recognize that something with their world went awry, that it was beyond their control, and that his or her feelings are common for people with similar experiences. These conditions are treatable, but not for someone that can't recognize the symptoms or where they might be coming from. That's why talking about it frankly, openly and objectively is important.

I was just referring to all the talk about velocity and such. It just seems gory. Just me I guess.

[TheNiche]

I was just referring to all the talk about velocity and such. It just seems gory. Just me I guess.

It is gory. That's the nature of jumping off of tall buildings.

[ttutrav]

Not to be judgmental here, but don't you think you guys may be being a little insensitive? I hope ttu is not reading all this.

Actually it hasn't bothered me as much as I thought it would. I was a little shaken Tuesday morning when it happened, makes you think about death and all that but I was actually happy that I was able to at least stop and try to do something rather than just freak out or keep driving like it didn't happen. I'd feel worse it if was an accident but since it was a suicide, its tragic that someone would do that, but at the end of the day, he did it to himself. I feel sorry for his family, especially if its true that his dad was in a building nearby as mentioned earlier in this thread. I'm not a parent, but I couldn't imagine losing a kid, especially in that manner.

Maybe I'm too desensitized from years of violent video games, movies, and unfiltered internet access but I haven't lost any sleep over it or really dwelled over it since Tuesday.

[TJones]

While I would agree, its better than how it ended for the other guy.

I'm not gonna feel sorry for a coward. Suicide = Coward.

Edited May 14, 2009 by TJones

[CDeb]

I was a little shaken Tuesday morning when it happened, makes you think about death and all that but I was actually happy that I was able to at least stop and try to do something rather than just freak out or keep driving like it didn't happen.

Or worse, have him land on you.

[ricco67]

Or worse, have him land on you.

Yeah, try explaining THAT to your insurance.

[TheNiche]

I'm not gonna feel sorry for a coward. Suicide = Coward.

That's not a fair statement. In the majority of cases, people who commit or attempt suicide are mentally ill, not cowards. There is a difference.

There are also medal of honor winners who have committed or attempted suicide, even as part of the act that got them the medal. Along a similar vein, I don't have any inherent problems with physician-assisted suicide insofar as it is administered to those of sound mind and judgement. All of my remaining grandparents have DNRs because they wouldn't want to be a burden on their family if they were to end up in a vegetative state; are they cowards because they wouldn't be willing to fight for such a potentially bleak existence?

[EMME]

I'm not gonna feel sorry for a coward. Suicide = Coward.

I can assure you from way too much experience, that those who attempt and/or commit suicide are not cowards. They are people in so much pain that feel so hopeless they don't think they can go on and they don't think anything will change. Is that true? most of the time, no, but it seems true to them.

Compassion, it's a good thing.

[SilverJK]

I'd say any day you live through, is better than the alternative.

[EMME]

Some days are good, the rest are necessary.

[TJones]

Some days are good, the rest are necessary.

"Some days are good, the rest are necessary." Did you really just type that ? If that is your outlook on life, you may as well do yourself in NOW also.

There is nothing, NOTHING, in this world that is soooo bad that you have to kill yourself over. But, there is a certain "thinning of the herd" that is required from time to time, so, perhaps the weak minded and heartless, need to succumb to their endeavors ?

Wait, you're right, people who commit suicide aren't cowards, they are SELFISH cowards.

Edited May 14, 2009 by TJones

[TheNiche]

"Some days are good, the rest are necessary." Did you really just type that ? If that is your outlook on life, you may as well do yourself in NOW also.

There is nothing, NOTHING, in this world that is soooo bad that you have to kill yourself over. But, there is a certain "thinning of the herd" that is required from time to time, so, perhaps the weak minded and heartless, need to succumb to their endeavors ?

Wait, you're right, people who commit suicide aren't cowards, they are SELFISH cowards.

Just as there are things (like a persistent vegetative state) that are so bad that death would be preferable, there are also things (like the well-being of family of a family that would keep a vegetable on life support) that are so good that death would be preferable. True, either consideration is a selfish act; this is as it should be. That doesn't make it an absolute wrong, and for reasons previously stated--which you failed to address--it is also not necessarily an indication of cowardice.

As for EMME's statement, I thought it was poignant. It succinctly illustrates the value of good days outweighing the burden of the bad. ...and since she is alive to say it, we can tell that the good > bad and that she's basically an optimistic forward-thinking person.

[EMME]

"Some days are good, the rest are necessary." Did you really just type that ? If that is your outlook on life, you may as well do yourself in NOW also.

There is nothing, NOTHING, in this world that is soooo bad that you have to kill yourself over. But, there is a certain "thinning of the herd" that is required from time to time, so, perhaps the weak minded and heartless, need to succumb to their endeavors ?

Wait, you're right, people who commit suicide aren't cowards, they are SELFISH cowards.

TJ, You are the first person ever to read "some days are good, the rest are necessary" as pessimistic. I think you may need help. No, seriously, it means that you gotta take the good with the bad. That if you want the good days, and most of us do, we have to get through the other days, so hang in there. Also, I am so glad that you don't understand how somebody could want to kill themself. That means you have not reached the depths of despair that some others have and some live in. That is something to be very grateful for. It is not a nice place to be, the depths. I watched my mother, who was an incredibly happy and creative person, get taken under and suffer greatly with schizophrenia. I saw her fear things that didn't exist except in her reality. And convincing her that it was "all in her head" was impossible.

No, don't begrudge people who suffer mental illness and the depths of depression, be grateful you don't understand it. But that you don't understand it does not mean it does not exist.

I wish you many more happy days and I wish you compassion. Not everyone is capable of pulling themselves up by their bootstraps.

[TJones]

Emme, you have to look at everyday as a blessing, not as necessary. If you made it through the day, that is a GOOD day. I can see someone having a "bad day". But, do you truly believe that suicide is justified, barring a Kevorkian diagnosed, terminally ill, you ain't coming back from this one, so let me put you out of your misery, type assisted suicide ? Assisted for that, I agree with. Stepping off a 10 story building to do a belly-flop because I lost my job, my wife is cheating on me, and my dog just died, is NOT justified IMO. I call these types of suicides selfish because do you really think that the guy considered that he might fall on poor ttu's car, or quite possibly ON ttu. No, he was only thinking of himself..........selfish.

I wish you compassion as well, compassion for victims like ttu as I do. The jumper is NOT a victim, he is a consequence of his own actions.

Edited May 15, 2009 by TJones

[MaggieMay]

Emme, you have to look at everyday as a blessing, not as necessary. If you made it through the day, that is a GOOD day. I can see someone having a "bad day". But, do you truly believe that suicide is justified, barring a Kevorkian diagnosed, terminally ill, you ain't coming back from this one, so let me put you out of your misery, type assisted suicide ? Assisted for that, I agree with. Stepping off a 10 story building to do a belly-flop because I lost my job, my wife is cheating on me, and my dog just died, is NOT justified IMO. I call these types of suicides selfish because do you really think that the guy considered that he might fall on poor ttu's car, or quite possibly ON ttu. No, he was only thinking of himself..........selfish.

I wish you compassion as well, compassion for victims like ttu as I do. The jumper is NOT a victim, he is a consequence of his own actions.

There really is such a thing as mental illness. When one is not able to handle the problems you list. Or--even worse--when the mind creates problems that a "sane" person cannot see. When one cannot think beyond those problems or try to get help. Or even sees himself as a burden to loved ones.

Of course, suicide causes pain for the survivors. And the suicidal act can harm others physically.

Just because somebody gets through each day without a Pollyanna attitude, why instruct them to kill themselves?

[TheNiche]

Emme, you have to look at everyday as a blessing, not as necessary. If you made it through the day, that is a GOOD day. I can see someone having a "bad day". But, do you truly believe that suicide is justified, barring a Kevorkian diagnosed, terminally ill, you ain't coming back from this one, so let me put you out of your misery, type assisted suicide ? Assisted for that, I agree with. Stepping off a 10 story building to do a belly-flop because I lost my job, my wife is cheating on me, and my dog just died, is NOT justified IMO. I call these types of suicides selfish because do you really think that the guy considered that he might fall on poor ttu's car, or quite possibly ON ttu. No, he was only thinking of himself..........selfish.

I wish you compassion as well, compassion for victims like ttu as I do. The jumper is NOT a victim, he is a consequence of his own actions.

Selfish doesn't begin to describe this guy. People who go out of their way to cause a public spectacle and to cause mental or possibly physical distress are certainly suffering from one or more personality disorders. The one that immediately comes to mind is Antisocial Personality Disorder (commonly referred to as sociopathy). He was mentally ill and was a victim of his own mind. It is probable that he could've been treated for his illness.

Selfish is a better description of a first responder to the scene that wishes he hadn't seen it. He has an awareness of and value for self; he may gain intrinsic satisfaction from helping others, but that satisfaction is its own reward to that individual--it is selfish. In contrast, the jumper had lost a sense of value for self and created a public spectacle which he would not be around to witness or appreciate for the sake of others--the jumper was selfless.

[diggity]

This is probably the worst thread I've ever read on this forum. Good work fellas!

[EMME]

This is probably the worst thread I've ever read on this forum. Good work fellas!

I agree, however, when it comes to mental illness, if the topic is raised, I will address it. It has remained in the shadows for far too long. There is no shame in mental illness, only shame in society's trying to run and hide it away. We must take the shame and stigma away from mental illness so that more people will and can get help. There is no more shame in mental illness than in any other life threatening chronic disease.

Standing down now.

[rsb320]

I agree, however, when it comes to mental illness, if the topic is raised, I will address it. It has remained in the shadows for far too long. There is no shame in mental illness, only shame in society's trying to run and hide it away. We must take the shame and stigma away from mental illness so that more people will and can get help. There is no more shame in mental illness than in any other life threatening chronic disease.

Standing down now.

When I revived the Jumper topic, I stated that (I heard) this guy had tried to get into Chevron with a knife and his father worked in the building. I'm just curious what his intentions were - murder/suicide?

Who knows, but if you post on HAIF, sure enough somebody chimes in where the dude falls out of the sky right by his car. Unbelievable!