Crime In Downtown

[ricco67]

Which is the reason why I believe we should all mind our manners with each other. Lord knows how HAIF will come up on google.

I wouldn't doubt if some of the more obscure topics on here get a HAIF hit once "Houston" is added to the search.

[TheNiche]

I agree, however, when it comes to mental illness, if the topic is raised, I will address it. It has remained in the shadows for far too long. There is no shame in mental illness, only shame in society's trying to run and hide it away. We must take the shame and stigma away from mental illness so that more people will and can get help. There is no more shame in mental illness than in any other life threatening chronic disease.

Standing down now.

EMME and I don't agree on much, but I'm totally on board with this one. If you all aren't willing to talk about it seriously and openly, then you may as well be complicit. People can be treated for the underlying causes of suicidal ideation, but not if we brush it all under the rug like so much pet dander.

[John Rich]

Terminal velocity for someone aligned vertically with the ground is about 160-180 mph...

I'd go with the lower end of your estimate. And it takes 12 seconds and 1,400 feet to accelerate to terminal velocity. Since the parking garage from which he jumped was not that high, he wasn't falling at nearly that speed. Still, it is plenty enough to kill anyone, and to do it very quickly. And unless they are an expert skydiver, they're not likely to be able to control their body attitude during the short descent.

Edited May 15, 2009 by John Rich

[John Rich]

I'm not gonna feel sorry for a coward. Suicide = Coward.

Do you feel that all suicides are "cowards"? Why?

Don't people have the right to choose to terminate their own life if they wish?

Who are you to tell someone that they should go on living if they don't want to?

If someone is dying from a terminal illness, are they cowards for choosing when to go?

"Some days are good, the rest are necessary." Did you really just type that ? If that is your outlook on life, you may as well do yourself in NOW also.

There is nothing, NOTHING, in this world that is soooo bad that you have to kill yourself over. But, there is a certain "thinning of the herd" that is required from time to time, so, perhaps the weak minded and heartless, need to succumb to their endeavors ?

Wait, you're right, people who commit suicide aren't cowards, they are SELFISH cowards.

You are way too judgemental about the way you view other people's lives.

You should be careful about that, because some day you may find yourself in their shoes.

Edited May 15, 2009 by John Rich

[crunchtastic]

EMME and I don't agree on much, but I'm totally on board with this one. If you all aren't willing to talk about it seriously and openly, then you may as well be complicit. People can be treated for the underlying causes of suicidal ideation, but not if we brush it all under the rug like so much pet dander.

Depression and PTSD is an issue that is, unfortunately, still in the shadows in our society. But as someone who quotes Ayn Rand in their signature, I would hope that you that you see suicide for what it is: not necessarily a result of mental illness, (although it often is) but rather the ultimate act of self-will. In many cases it is the rational response to a situation. Any society that accepts capital punishment but considers suicide a sin is deeply, philosophically flawed.

Edited May 16, 2009 by crunchtastic

[TJones]

Do you feel that all suicides are "cowards"? Why?

Don't people have the right to choose to terminate their own life if they wish?

Who are you to tell someone that they should go on living if they don't want to?

If someone is dying from a terminal illness, are they cowards for choosing when to go?

You are way too judgemental about the way you view other people's lives.

You should be careful about that, because some day you may find yourself in their shoes.

In the future....... try reading the WHOLE thread , before you comment. I refer you to post #46 in this thread.

But to answer your question, if one feels the desperate need to kill oneself, does one have to make a spectacle of oneself to do it ? (i.e: trying to land on someone's car during lunchrush from a 10 story drop downtown)

Edited May 16, 2009 by TJones

[TheNiche]

Depression and PTSD is an issue that is, unfortunately, still in the shadows in our society. But as someone who quotes Ayn Rand in their signature, I would hope that you that you see suicide for what it is: not necessarily a result of mental illness, (although it often is) but rather the ultimate act of self-will. In many cases it is the rational response to a situation.

As someone who quotes Ayn Rand in their signature, I readily acknowledge that I myself probably have one or more personality disorders. Seriously, though, we all have a place in the DSM-IV. ...it's just that some of us have a place more dire than others.

I acknowledge that suicide is not always an irrational response, however I accept that it usually is.

EDIT: For the sake of clarity, I'm really strict on the definition of mental illness as I perceive it. A person has to be willing to acknowledge that they aren't happy with some facet of themselves and also acknowledge that they are not presently able to change that aspect of themselves by way of their own willpower before I declare them mentally ill. If I expand the definition even the slightest bit further than that, it must necessarily encompass the emotion that is love. That would be unacceptable for reasons which I could never hope to articulate. It's a pretty low hurdle, but one that I think is reliable, valid, and accurate--if not necessarily precise. One way or the other, talking about it is the best segway towards an individual's potential recognition that there is a problem and ultimately to them deciding that they need treatment.

Edited May 16, 2009 by TheNiche

[houstonranger]

In the future....... try reading the WHOLE thread , before you comment. I refer you to post #46 in this thread.

I read your whole thread and I also along with many people here I'm sure totally disagree with what you are saying, and more importantly your somewhat dismissive attitude

Your opinion on people afflicted a mental illness such as depression, alzheimers or schizophrenia is troubling to me. These are the people that end off jumping off buildings. Not people who lost their dogs. I assume from your tone that you have never had the misfortune to share heart breaking experiences such as these with friends or loved ones.

For that anyway, you are blessed.

[TJones]

I read your whole thread and I also along with many people here I'm sure totally disagree with what you are saying, and more importantly your somewhat dismissive attitude

Your opinion on people afflicted a mental illness such as depression, alzheimers or schizophrenia is troubling to me. These are the people that end off jumping off buildings. Not people who lost their dogs. I assume from your tone that you have never had the misfortune to share heart breaking experiences such as these with friends or loved ones.

For that anyway, you are blessed.

And just what is my opinion of people with Alzheimer's ?

Depression, does not a justification for suicide make. In my experience, people with Schizophrenia usually try going after OTHER people to kill, NOT trying to kill themselves.

[TheNiche]

Depression, does not a justification for suicide make.

How is that your judgment to make? Do you think it will change their mind that you do not approve?

In my experience, people with Schizophrenia usually try going after OTHER people to kill, NOT trying to kill themselves.

Your experience is clearly very limited. Each of my parents have worked rehab in residential psychiatric facilities. Suicide is a far more frequent occurrence than is violence towards others.

Read this.

Edited May 17, 2009 by TheNiche

[TJones]

How is that your judgment to make? Do you think it will change their mind that you do not approve?

Your experience is clearly very limited. Each of my parents have worked rehab in residential psychiatric facilities. Suicide is a far more frequent occurrence than is violence towards others.

Read this.

Niche, we have already established that I don't care if someone offs themself, just as long as they aren't endangering the life of someone else in their process. I agree with you, basically 99 out of 100 Schizos wind up harming themselves before they would harm others, I see that as a good thing, they off themselves before they off an innocent party. That's the lesser of 2 evils, if you will. Again, it goes back to weak-minded individuals.

I also said that it is a weak-minded person who commits such an act, I still stand behind that statement. I understand how some of you people see that as callous. I see it as only the strong can and will survive in this world.

Since you like to read so much...... http://www.trutv.com/library/crime/serial_...k/insane_8.html

BTW, your parents worked at a rehab center ? My Father was CFO/CEO of a fortune 500 company for 15 years, and my Mother was a Loan officer at a Wells Fargo for 10 years, that doesn't make me a financial expert, now does it.

Edited May 17, 2009 by TJones

[TheNiche]

Again, it goes back to weak-minded individuals.

I also said that it is a weak-minded person who commits such an act, I still stand behind that statement. I understand how some of you people see that as callous. I see it as only the strong can and will survive in this world.

Most weak-minded individuals don't have the guts to commit an act with such finality as suicide. They follow society's rules. And society says not to off yourself.

Since you like to read so much...... http://www.trutv.com/library/crime/serial_...k/insane_8.html

There's nothing that I can see in that document that appears factually incorrect. However, it does not appear to have a point. High-profile anecdotes aren't especially compelling evidence of...well, anything at all, really.

Edited May 17, 2009 by TheNiche

[EMME]

Niche, you are wasting time on this person. He has no capacity for exploring the depths of his own feelings, much less to be able to have compassion for others. Let's let this thread die, so we can go back to the land of the caring.

[TheNiche]

Niche, you are wasting time on this person. He has no capacity for exploring the depths of his own feelings, much less to be able to have compassion for others. Let's let this thread die, so we can go back to the land of the caring.

This is a public forum, not a private conversation. Allowing misinformed opinions based on scant evidence to go unchallenged creates the potential to for those opinions to sway others, even if they do not actively participate on the thread.

[EMME]

This is a public forum, not a private conversation. Allowing misinformed opinions based on scant evidence to go unchallenged creates the potential to for those opinions to sway others, even if they do not actively participate on the thread.

I'm pretty sure it's been challenged.

[TJones]

Niche, you are wasting time on this person. He has no capacity for exploring the depths of his own feelings, much less to be able to have compassion for others. Let's let this thread die, so we can go back to the land of the caring.

Please lady, don't even "pretend" to know anything about me. You haven't a clue as to who I am or what I've been through. Why don't you go make better use of your time, wasting it, "caring" for schizos and weak-minded folks with suicidal tendencies ?

"Oh, the poor jumper", screw him, he made his choice. People who had to witness his selfish act didn't have a choice. That is who you should feel sorry for. But you haven't addressed the victims, so it is obvious, you don't care about them. When you start caring about the TRUE victims of his heinous act, then you can preach to me about "compassion".

[EMME]

Please lady, don't even "pretend" to know anything about me. You haven't a clue as to who I am or what I've been through. Why don't you go make better use of your time, wasting it, "caring" for schizos and weak-minded folks with suicidal tendencies ?

"Oh, the poor jumper", screw him, he made his choice. People who had to witness his selfish act didn't have a choice. That is who you should feel sorry for. But you haven't addressed the victims, so it is obvious, you don't care about them. When you start caring about the TRUE victims of his heinous act, then you can preach to me about "compassion".

I don't know what his circumstances were...drug induced, mental illness or what. If it was mental illness, he did not have a choice either.

[sidegate]

This thread's a downer. Houston's architecture's depressing enough without this.

[TheNiche]

Please lady, don't even "pretend" to know anything about me. You haven't a clue as to who I am or what I've been through. Why don't you go make better use of your time, wasting it, "caring" for schizos and weak-minded folks with suicidal tendencies ?

"Oh, the poor jumper", screw him, he made his choice. People who had to witness his selfish act didn't have a choice. That is who you should feel sorry for. But you haven't addressed the victims, so it is obvious, you don't care about them. When you start caring about the TRUE victims of his heinous act, then you can preach to me about "compassion".

It sure is convenient that you are systematically ignoring my criticism of your loaded and accusatory rhetoric and instead only ever reply to EMME, repeating the same mistakes time after time.

Whoever you define as a victim, it seems that the best course of action to prevent victimization is the same: suicide prevention and treatment of mental illness. And you're going to get a lot more people coming forward for treatment if they can recognize that they're sick and will be embraced by a caring society, rather than just weird and subject to being bullied by an angry, reactionary society. It's like the old saying goes, you'll catch more flies with honey than with vinegar.

[SilverJK]

"caring" for schizos is a waste of time? That is the most rediculous thing i've ever read. ever.

[TJones]

Niche, I guess you didn't read my response to you in post #62.

And SilverJK, I'm guessing, that you don't read much at all, if that statement qualifies as the most "ridiculous".

Niche, how can you possibly think that those who commit suicide are braver than those who choose to move forward and face everyday troubles or worse, head on, instead of taking the easy way out and leaving others to clean up your messes ?

[TheNiche]

Niche, I guess you didn't read my response to you in post #62.

Actually, I read post #62 and responded to it with post #63 four minutes before you edited post #62.

Niche, how can you possibly think that those who commit suicide are braver than those who choose to move forward and face everyday troubles or worse, head on, instead of taking the easy way out and leaving others to clean up your messes ?

As I already told you, it is because suicide is an act with finality. You don't get to second-guess yourself. You don't know what'll happen to you as you die or after you die. It might even really suck to be dead. But when someone pulls that trigger, they lock in their future in one bold stroke. There's no going back. For someone that is not in a psychotic state, that takes balls.

[sunsets]

I should really stay out of this, but, here goes...

"Oh, the poor jumper", screw him, he made his choice. People who had to witness his selfish act didn't have a choice. That is who you should feel sorry for. But you haven't addressed the victims, so it is obvious, you don't care about them. When you start caring about the TRUE victims of his heinous act, then you can preach to me about "compassion".

Why are you so angry about this, TJones? I don't think anyone was expressing sympathy for the jumper over the people he left behind.

When I was a student in my 20's, a co-worker committed suicide. I remember being SO angry that he had gone and done that. How could he put his wife through that? His friends through that? I guess he was just "weak-minded", wasn't he?

But you know what? He wasn't. He had a substance abuse problem. He faced up to it, he got help, he was getting his life back on track. That took guts. But on one night, just one night, he slipped. He slipped long enough to drink a lot of wine and pull out the shotgun and end it all right there. And years later, that is what upsets me the most. He almost made it.

Why don't you go make better use of your time, wasting it, "caring" for schizos and weak-minded folks with suicidal tendencies ?

Only the strong should survive? We're not exactly running from sabre-toothed tigers anymore. If someone breaks an ankle when they step in a pothole should we just blame it on their weak bones and not treat them? Let them lie on the sidewalk and the pigeons can have at them? It's the same thing with mental illness - there are physical changes in the brain in clinically depressed people. Good therapies can help lots of these people, and save them (and their loved ones) from tragedy.

[Native Son]

is it my imagination, or did this thread take a real personal turn about 50 posts in?

[TJones]

I should really stay out of this, but, here goes...

Why are you so angry about this, TJones? I don't think anyone was expressing sympathy for the jumper over the people he left behind.

When I was a student in my 20's, a co-worker committed suicide. I remember being SO angry that he had gone and done that. How could he put his wife through that? His friends through that? I guess he was just "weak-minded", wasn't he?

But you know what? He wasn't. He had a substance abuse problem. He faced up to it, he got help, he was getting his life back on track. That took guts. But on one night, just one night, he slipped. He slipped long enough to drink a lot of wine and pull out the shotgun and end it all right there. And years later, that is what upsets me the most. He almost made it.

Only the strong should survive? We're not exactly running from sabre-toothed tigers anymore. If someone breaks an ankle when they step in a pothole should we just blame it on their weak bones and not treat them? Let them lie on the sidewalk and the pigeons can have at them? It's the same thing with mental illness - there are physical changes in the brain in clinically depressed people. Good therapies can help lots of these people, and save them (and their loved ones) from tragedy.

You just proved my point, I agree, it takes guts to go and face your life, whatever that may be, head on. Now, this is gonna piss you off, and I am not trying to, I promise. But, he slipped, he was weak, and then he was selfish. He left YOU angry, and you are still upset about it now, aren't you ? He didn't think about his wife, well, maybe I believe he did in his drunken state, but obviously that wasn't enough not to leave HER devasted, now was it ? Suicides like this either don't think or don't care about the consequences of their "finality", they just want out !

Sunsets, if I was at all angry, I WOULD BE TYPING LIKE THIS.............TELLING NICHE WHAT AN IDIOT HE IS AND blah blah blah . Niche is actually a friend to me though. We just happen to disagree on this, and this isn't the ONLY thing we have disagreed on. We generally agree on most subjects here. I just have "compassion" for ttu, whereas Niche and Emme harbor more feelings for the jumper in this case. For what reason, I can't fathom. Perhaps you can shed some light ?

Sabre-toothed Tigers, eh? You're right, there are much much worse things out there now, aren't there ? I would take my chances against a Sabre-toothed rather than a couple of MS-13 gang members in broad daylight these days.

To answer your question about broken bones, bones most assuredly will mend with proper treatment and care by first, a physician, and second, by YOURSELF. Not usually the case with psychotics. If I helped you with your broken ankle, you might thank me and go about your life, and we might never cross paths again. If I helped you with your deep psychosis, you might think that I also was out to get you, and that your dog told you to kill me and you may try to stab me with your fork, but you would fail, because of the cork I have placed on the end of your fork, as a precautionary measure, because it wasn't the first time you tried to stab somebody with your fork, so now we are gonna allow you to only eat things that you can sip through a straw. You see the difference there.

Niche, did you ask your parents how many Schizos gained a full recovery from their diagnosis ? Any walking talking members of society here on the HAIF pages that have a clean bill of health , overcoming Schizophrenia?

Edited May 19, 2009 by TJones

[TheNiche]

I just have "compassion" for ttu, whereas Niche and Emme harbor more feelings for the jumper in this case. For what reason, I can't fathom.

If you go back and look through my posts, I think it's pretty clear that I harbor sympathy for both parties, not just one or the other as though such a concept were mutually exclusive.

Niche, did you ask your parents how many Schizos gained a full recovery from their diagnosis ?

I don't think anybody was keeping count of the good stuff. You only hear about how frequently the bad stuff happens relative to the good stuff. Such is life.

Btw, for the record, TJones is correct in pointing out that he and I disagree frequently--but that that doesn't mean that we're diametrically-opposed arch-nemeses of one another. It is possible to debate fiercely and ultimately walk away still respecting each other and being essentially good people.

[TJones]

If you go back and look through my posts, I think it's pretty clear that I harbor sympathy for both parties, not just one or the other as though such a concept were mutually exclusive.

I don't think anybody was keeping count of the good stuff. You only hear about how frequently the bad stuff happens relative to the good stuff. Such is life.

Btw, for the record, TJones is correct in pointing out that he and I disagree frequently--but that that doesn't mean that we're diametrically-opposed arch-nemeses of one another. It is possible to debate fiercely and ultimately walk away still respecting each other and being essentially good people.

Yes, yes, I believed that you were on the right track at first, because you agreed that "Selfish doesn't begin to describe the jumper". Then you turned on me.

Look, I do have some sympathy, for the jumper, just a little. He obviously had problems, I just DO NOT BELIEVE, (that's just me stressing the point sunsets) that there is anything soooo terrible in life that you gotta end it all by doing a swan dive off the 10th floor.

Oh, Niche, I don't think you are an idiot, that was just sorta an example, I mean it was JUST an example.

Edited May 19, 2009 by TJones

[TheNiche]

Yes, yes, I believed that you were on the right track at first, because you agreed that "Selfish doesn't begin to describe the jumper". Then you turned on me.

Look, I do have some sympathy, for the jumper, just a little. He obviously had problems, I just DO NOT BELIEVE, (that's just me stressing the point sunsets) that there is anything soooo terrible in life that you gotta end it all by doing a swan dive off the 10th floor.

Oh, Niche, I don't think you are an idiot, that was just sorta an example, I mean it was JUST an example.

I stand by my initial assessment about the jumper. But the conversation took a turn towards more generalized attitudes towards suicide, and the vast majority of cases aren't nearly so public.

One way or the other, the best way to resolve something that we both acknowledge is a social problem is to try and treat the underlying problems that prompt people to commit suicide. And as I pointed out earlier today, you'll catch more flies with honey than with vinegar.

[TJones]

I stand by my initial assessment about the jumper. But the conversation took a turn towards more generalized attitudes towards suicide, and the vast majority of cases aren't nearly so public.

One way or the other, the best way to resolve something that we both acknowledge is a social problem is to try and treat the underlying problems that prompt people to commit suicide. And as I pointed out earlier today, you'll catch more flies with honey than with vinegar.

That's where we differ a little, I don't see all suicides as a social problem, they are mostly personal problems, that become social when they decide they need to do their deed with an audience present. Go get into a nice warm tub and slit your wrists, but do it right, do it length wise, not across. Go take some pills. Get some rope and go in your closet. Hook up a hose to your tailpipe of your SUV while in your garage with the door down and turn your SUV on. All sorts of ways to off yourself. Nobody wants to see you do it, or needs to see you do it.

[TheNiche]

That's where we differ a little, I don't see all suicides as a social problem, they are mostly personal problems, that become social when they decide they need to do their deed with an audience present. Go get into a nice warm tub and slit your wrists, but do it right, do it length wise, not across. Go take some pills. Get some rope and go in your closet. Hook up a hose to your tailpipe of your SUV while in your garage with the door down and turn your SUV on. All sorts of ways to off yourself. Nobody wants to see you do it, or needs to see you do it.

"There is a level of cowardice lower than that of the conformist: the fashionable non-conformist." That's another one of those damned Ayn Rand quotes I can never seem to get enough of. But it exemplifies my feelings towards those that would commit suicide in a public setting for the purpose of creating a scene. It's one of the worst things a person could do.

Earlier I outlined my very stark definition of what constitutes mental illness. In that specific context, it needs to be addressed. Beyond that I don't see that we're on opposing sides at all. Must've been a communication problem.

Edited May 19, 2009 by TheNiche