East River: Mixed-Use Development By Midway

[Naviguessor]

I live a half a block of Clinton, I suppose in "Prime Zeta Turff", but I can only guess what you are talking about and how it can have anything to do with HEB or the development of KBR. However, there are few commercial real estate opportunities available close to the CBD and the East End which can support the type of single floor square footage, including parking that a normal size HEB requires. I agree that the density is not great just off Clinton, but it is easy to say that an HEB here, would draw from a far more reaching area. Also, HEB surely has inside information on the intentions of the remaining KBR site. I just hope that there is a landing pad for the ZETA mothership...and a Spec's.

[intencity77]

Don't know about it being "zeta turf" but I also doubt this rumor is true. Yes, there are new town homes in that area and it's been improving, but IMO it's just not enough for any grocery chain to justify building a store. Unless there is some kind of huge secret residential plan for the KBR site, then maybe HEB might consider, but even then I doubt it. Like I commented on Swamplot, HEB isn't really known for opening new "pioneer type" stores in less established areas of Houston. HEB's other lower concept stores Mi Tienda or Joe V's are more probable in this scenario. In fact, Lovett Commercial already has a Joe V's Smartshop proposed for the corner of Harrisburg and Eastwood, which makes this KBR HEB rumor even less true since these locations are so close by.

Edited November 2, 2013 by intencity77

[lockmat]

I found another company similar to the one that bought this property, that does the same thing and buys distressed properties like KBRs. Seems like an odd interest. I mean, I know they're in it to make money, but real estate?

 

http://g2partnersllc.com/investments/environmentally-distressed-real-estate/

 

 

[H-Town Man]

Is there any reason why something like this couldn't happen?

 

 

I mean in terms of possibility, not probability.

[brhaltx]

Build it and they will come.

[Dakota79]

As those were being built, people probably griped about how they didn't fit in, weren't the right style, shouldn't have replaced what was there before, etc.

[H-Town Man]

As those were being built, people probably griped about how they didn't fit in, weren't the right style, shouldn't have replaced what was there before, etc.

Are you suggesting that in 150 years we'll look at streets lined with garage entrances as nostalgically as we look at these?

[Dakota79]

Are you suggesting that in 150 years we'll look at streets lined with garage entrances as nostalgically as we look at these?

[Naviguessor]

It would be interesting for the Cathexis (or whoever the developer will be) to Plat, Subdived, "zone" and issue some Design/material guidelines, so that there is some harmony and some unplanned rendomness.  Then, sell the lots to individual buyers or smaller devlopers and let it develop quasi-organically.  I know this goes against everything we as Houstonian's stand for.  But, it might just be interesting in an area this size.  Maybe the zoning could expire after a period of time...so, that it could be considered part Houston. 

[Mr.Clean19]

Half the property is divided on hcad right now towards Jensen. Its a great property with so much potential. Hate to see it held or mis-managed into a crummy shopping center. I'm afraid that the market for 300k+ townhomes are being eaten up quickly all over town. If Hines builds its other community out on the west side near 610 and i-10, it will be hard to fill these. Although a great skyline view and immediate bayou access are hard to pass up

[Subdude]

Note that two open KBR site topics have been merged.

 

 

[H-Town Man]

As those were being built, people probably griped about how they didn't fit in, weren't the right style, shouldn't have replaced what was there before, etc.

 

They were actually quite well received at the time, and what was there before was marsh.

[Mr.Clean19]

Using my powers of Google, I just happened to search out the adress for cathexis and found another company sharing the same suite (Catsyn LLC). They seem to be related based on the people that work at both

[Dakota79]

Are you suggesting that in 150 years we'll look at streets lined with garage entrances as nostalgically as we look at these?

[Dakota79]

All the "bland" (per so many comments) townhomes, apartments and office buildings in general will disappear into the ciry fabric as a whole once Houston is completely in-filled. And in 150 years that should done. Of course, it's highly unlikely I will be around to see it!

[H-Town Man]

All the "bland" (per so many comments) townhomes, apartments and office buildings in general will disappear into the ciry fabric as a whole once Houston is completely in-filled. And in 150 years that should done. Of course, it's highly unlikely I will be around to see it!

 

You're dodging my points and changing what you said. You suggested that the townhomes in Back Bay were probably received the same way today's Houston townhomes are at the time when they were built, as though it's only the passing of time which can make townhomes seem beautiful to the present crowd of critics.

 

I countered that no, the townhomes in Back Bay were not received this way at the time they were built, and that there is an objective aesthetic difference between homes that front the street with garage doors, and homes that front the street as the Back Bay homes do, with human entrances. The former will always create a more hostile and less attractive street environment, all else being equal. You are welcome to try to refute these points, but the practice of simply requoting my question without answering it leaves me to assume that you aren't able to.

Edited February 11, 2014 by H-Town Man

[H-Town Man]

It's a question between do you want something like this, with human entrances,

 

 

or this, with car entrances

 

 

 

And just so people don't think I only like things that are old, or that I have some bias against Houston's townhome builders, I do think this is somewhat attractive:

Edited February 11, 2014 by H-Town Man

[Naviguessor]

^^ That is exactly what I mean by "Design Guidlines".  Put Alley's in the back and limit curb-cuts and tall fences in the front.   

[aarosurf]

Don't overlook the fact that the first floor garage and limited first floor windows adds to security at the expense of "attractiveness" - a trade off that many would take.

[Dakota79]

I never said I liked townhomes with front loader garages. Nor do I like Randall Davis' Renoir, Meteopolis, etc. However, many of the buildings such as the mid rises and highrises today will be ok as the city in-fills. I've walked DC, Chicago, NYC etc and they have a lot of ugly (IMHO) buildings and row houses that you don't notice as much since there are so many buildings. Look, I love Houston, and wish builders could understand that people will pay for quality. Still, Perry Homes made Bob Perry a gazillionaire, so not everyone cares about aesthetics like you or I. Some people just want location and square footage.

If you or I don't like what people are building, we either have to pony up the money and build it ourselves, or quit griping about it.

Edited February 11, 2014 by Dakota79

[samagon]

I'd opt for the front loader, but with a very large 2nd story balcony.

 

Of the 3, I find the 3rd to be the most "stay off my yard" as the approach to the front door is so small (no large staircase there), and the hedges/fences are so high. It's not inviting. Not to mention the windows are small.

 

The second at least doesn't hide the first story, even though it's just a garage door.

 

The first does have a much more inviting appeal to it, big windows, big stairs leading to the entry. 

Edited February 11, 2014 by samagon

[H-Town Man]

I never said I liked townhomes with front loader garages. Nor do I like Randall Davis' Renoir, Meteopolis, etc. However, many of the buildings such as the mid rises and highrises today will be ok as the city in-fills. I've walked DC, Chicago, NYC etc and they have a lot of ugly (IMHO) buildings and row houses that you don't notice as much since there are so many buildings. Look, I love Houston, and wish builders could understand that people will pay for quality. Still, Perry Homes made Bob Perry a gazillionaire, so not everyone cares about aesthetics like you or I. Some people just want location and square footage.

If you or I don't like what people are building, we either have to pony up the money and build it ourselves, or quit griping about it.

 

I'm glad you can sort of admit that the garage front homes don't look very good. The point of my posting the original picture was to make people think about what the KBR site could look like if done right.

 

It's my conviction that many people who buy townhomes lacking in aesthetics in this town do so because they don't have a quality alternative. There is no neighborhood where all the townhomes are done in such a way as to really make a quality street atmosphere like you have in Back Bay, and so it's a case of not knowing what you're missing. This is Houston's weakness - we don't have great historical precedents for townhomes, so we're willing to accept crap, just because it's close and convenient.

 

The KBR site presents a chance for a developer to do it the right way on a massive scale, and really show the rest of Houston what it's been missing. I don't have the money to "pony up" and do it myself, but I'm definitely going to talk about what I think would look good.

[KinkaidAlum]

The Back Bay is an awesome neighborhood but there's no way a developer could replicate it today in Houston. Most of those buildings were built as single family homes and only later converted to condos. Several are still single family and can run $10 million plus. Heck, a nice BASEMENT studio on Commonwealth or Beacon can run you $400,000... for a studio.

 

Additionally, the entire neighborhood was built before cars were on the road. Today, parking is a major hassle and an expensive one at that. If you aren't lucky enough to have a dirt spot in an alley, then you're looking at paying $500+ a month in a restrictive garage (in and out policies enforced) or dealing with street parking, towing, street cleaning schedules, and hundreds if not thousands of dollars of parking tickets a year. 

 

Of course, that neighborhood is much more pleasant to live in without a car than anywhere in Houston. Walking in Boston is a joy compared to most of Houston. Plus, all 4 T lines are within walking distance, the Back Bay/South End Station with commuter rail and AMTRAK service is right next to Copley Square, and the Charles River has hike/bike trails that make getting to the Financial District or Cambridge a breeze. 

 

 

[H-Town Man]

The Back Bay is an awesome neighborhood but there's no way a developer could replicate it today in Houston. Most of those buildings were built as single family homes and only later converted to condos. Several are still single family and can run $10 million plus. Heck, a nice BASEMENT studio on Commonwealth or Beacon can run you $400,000... for a studio.

Additionally, the entire neighborhood was built before cars were on the road. Today, parking is a major hassle and an expensive one at that. If you aren't lucky enough to have a dirt spot in an alley, then you're looking at paying $500+ a month in a restrictive garage (in and out policies enforced) or dealing with street parking, towing, street cleaning schedules, and hundreds if not thousands of dollars of parking tickets a year.

Of course, that neighborhood is much more pleasant to live in without a car than anywhere in Houston. Walking in Boston is a joy compared to most of Houston. Plus, all 4 T lines are within walking distance, the Back Bay/South End Station with commuter rail and AMTRAK service is right next to Copley Square, and the Charles River has hike/bike trails that make getting to the Financial District or Cambridge a breeze.

Some of these differences are beside the point. I'd imagine these would be single family homes rather than condos, and it wouldn't be so expensive because it's not so famous. The parking problem could be solved by alleys with garages. No they didn't have cars when it was built, but they didn't have the T either. And Buffalo Bayou will have the hike and bike trails.

I think the comparison is apt because, just like Back Bay started, you have this vast tract of land that has opened up near the center of the city, a huge blank slate. If someone has the vision to do it right, it could be similarly renowned someday.

[lockmat]

Is this article about the property just north of kbr?

http://m.bizjournals.com/houston/blog/breaking-ground/2014/02/houstons-fifth-ward-redevelopment-efforts-continue.html?r=full

[sdotwill84]

any news or updates on this piece of land? I look forward to it's development.

[Mr.Clean19]

It will be a few years. RIght now that area is looking to build about 600+ homes in the immediate vicentity of KBR lot over the next 3 years. Once that happens as well as continued East End expansion will cause commercial developmetn to become necessary and KBR will pounce. Thats the reason they didnt want the botanical garden on that site. Its worth way too much. The only issue with that area is 5th ward politics causing so many problems for the owner. Look no further for corrupt politicians that 5th Ward CRC and the TIRZ 18.

Edited April 20, 2014 by Mr.Clean19

[Naviguessor]

How are the 5th ward politicians hampering Cathexis (the owners)? Sounds like you've heard something.

On a side note: heard that the Buffalo Bayou Partnership was able to gain Right of way access to build/complete trails along the bayou. They will also got the right of way for trails by Clayton Home housing project and will be converting to old railway bridge into a pedestrian/bikeway...which will be very cool.

[Mr.Clean19]

Millions are being poured into TIRZ 18 with no economic output. They leveraged city funding with a plan to develop the lower portion of "The Bottom" yet conveniently ran out of money less that 40% of the way complete. Now they are forcing the owners of KBR lot to join their TIRZ but its becoming a major stink because they want to be separate. 

[Mr.Clean19]

So apparently there are 2 cranes being assembled on the Most eastern portion of the property and a new gas line being installed by Centerpoint. Signs of life?