Decision 2008: McCain/Obama

[Reefmonkey]

I am not a fan of Obama. Inspiring speaker, yes, qualified for president, no. However, it appears that he is getting elected, I have learned to see the silver lining in his becoming president. It has nothing to do with Obama's abilities, but rather perception. For eight years now, our friends and enemies alike have seen Americans as epitomized by our president, as a go-it-alone, arrogant, ignorant, bullying cowboy, another old-guard WASP. Opposing America, anti-American sentiment has become popular, even among our allies, and therefore they resist us when we need their cooperation. Obama, by virtue of being younger, black, with an arabic name and progressive politics (which the Europeans love), will represent us as a progressive, multicultural, tolerant people. Among our allies, feeling for us will warm. Anti-American sentiment will dissipate. A willingness to cooperate, to no longer stand in our way as a matter of course, will emerge. Even within the Muslim world, feelings about Americans may settle down.

This will give us time to regroup, to finish what we need to do in Iraq and Afghanistan, repair the damage that they and the multiple financial scandals have done to our society and our economy in peace. Hopefully during that time Obama will surround himself with advisors who are more experienced than he, so that his administration makes sound decisions.

Plus, even though I think of McCain as not being a nutter extreme right winger, and thus capable of making decisions that protect individual rights, I think Obama would do an even better job on issues like gay marriage, creationism in high school biology classes, etc.

Well, that's how I cope with the fact that he is going to be elected, anyway.

[Fringe]

I share your same sentiment Reefmonkey but I'm not quite as optimistic. Yes I believe Obama WILL be a better diplomat and may bring us back together with many of our allies but I don't see it happening with Islamic countries. Their hatred for Jews runs way to deep. I don't think their hatred for us will ever change as long as we support Israel. You can win over political allies but not religious ones. The question is, can Obama stand up to these groups? Not can he make peace with them. I'm all for peace, but I don't believe in "turning the other cheek".

[Reefmonkey]

The question is, can Obama stand up to these groups?

That reminds me of something my boss said recently. He's a big republican, and he thinks Obama won't be strong enough to stand up to our enemies. After watching the debates, I don't think McCain is strong enough. He has more experience and a better grasp of foreign affairs than Obama, a better grasp of governance in general than Obama, yet he let Obama best him in the debates. I think his age and his inability to keep his temper have conspired to make him weak, and I fear he would be that way with foreign powers.

[RedScare]

That reminds me of something my boss said recently. He's a big republican, and he thinks Obama won't be strong enough to stand up to our enemies. After watching the debates, I don't think McCain is strong enough. He has more experience and a better grasp of foreign affairs than Obama, a better grasp of governance in general than Obama, yet he let Obama best him in the debates. I think his age and his inability to keep his temper have conspired to make him weak, and I fear he would be that way with foreign powers.

I disagree that McCain has a better grasp of foreign affairs and a better grasp of governance in general. He has a better grasp of war as a solution to all disagreements, but not of foreign affairs. This may play well to an American populace that has grown accustomed to starting wars whenever someone disagrees with us, but as we begin to recognize the cost associated with sending our military off to confront real and perceived threats, a more effective and nuanced approach is needed. John McCain does not understand 'nuance'. 'Turn the other cheek' worked for the first guy who uttered the phrase, and it has its place in today's world as well. We cannot afford, monetarily or diplomatically, to make war with everyone who irritates us. We won't be the first nation to implode using that strategy.

The most effective president will be the one who surrounds himself with the best advisors. Obama appears to understand this concept far more than McCain.

[Fringe]

We cannot afford, monetarily or diplomatically, to make war with everyone who irritates us.

Do you think 9-11 was just irritating?

[memebag]

Do you think 9-11 was just irritating?

That's a bogus response. Iraq had nothing to do with 9/11.

[Fringe]

That's a bogus response. Iraq had nothing to do with 9/11.

Hey, I agree about Iraq.

[barracuda]

Hey, I agree about Iraq.

[memebag]

Hey, I agree about Iraq. No arguements there. What I meant was, do you think we should have just shrugged our shoulders and moved on? I want a President that will stand up for our country. I just don't see that with Obama. I sincerely hope that I'm wrong because just like his VP said, we have not seen the end of Isalmic terrorist and he will be tested. You don't "negotiate" with these people. They take that as a sign of weakness. Believe me, I know.

Did you miss Obama's positions on the Taliban, Afghanistan and Pakistan? He never advocated shrugging our shoulders. He advocated focusing our military efforts on the groups that helped al Qaeda and not being distracted by Iraq.

Edit: I'm surprised you haven't heard this before. Obama said this about attacking al Qaeda in Pakistan: "If we have actionable intelligence about high-value terrorist targets and President Musharraf won't act, we will", and then McCain accused Obama of suggesting we bomb Pakistan without their permission. You don't remember that controversy?

[Reefmonkey]

I disagree that McCain has a better grasp of foreign affairs and a better grasp of governance in general. He has a better grasp of war as a solution to all disagreements, but not of foreign affairs. This may play well to an American populace that has grown accustomed to starting wars whenever someone disagrees with us, but as we begin to recognize the cost associated with sending our military off to confront real and perceived threats, a more effective and nuanced approach is needed. John McCain does not understand 'nuance'. 'Turn the other cheek' worked for the first guy who uttered the phrase, and it has its place in today's world as well. We cannot afford, monetarily or diplomatically, to make war with everyone who irritates us. We won't be the first nation to implode using that strategy.

The most effective president will be the one who surrounds himself with the best advisors. Obama appears to understand this concept far more than McCain.

I think you and I are pretty much in agreement, it's just a matter of viewpoint. I think McCain as better knowledge of foreign affairs, but wrongly is too inclined to go to war.I think Obama doesn't have the breadth and depth of knowledge of foreign affairs of MCain, but is less likely to go to war, and I would rather the president not be eager to go to war, it should be a last resort. Ultimately, Obama will have access to excellent briefings on foreign affairs as president, which will make up for his lack of knowledge now. Really, since a prsident can get great advisors, it comes down to a matter of temperment. I think Obama has a slower fuse, a more rational temperment. I have utmost respect for McCain as an American, as a courageous veteran, and as a principled, honest, and effective senator - I think he is a much better senator than Obama - but I think Obama's temperment and outward persona are what is best for america right now.

[Fringe]

The most effective president will be the one who surrounds himself with the best advisors. Obama appears to understand this concept far more than McCain.

He can talk the talk but can he walk the walk? Obama may have you thinking he has all the right answers but I can tell you from experience that talk is cheap. Actions speak words and he will be faced with with some MAJOR decisions. I can only hope you are right.

[RedScare]

He can talk the talk but can he walk the walk? Obama may have you thinking he has all the right answers but I can tell you from experience that talk is cheap. Actions speak words and he will be faced with with some MAJOR decisions. I can only hope you are right.

Talk is indeed cheap. I can only say this about my decision to vote the way I did. I believe we have made some major changes in the way we run our country over the last few decades, and that those changes are unsustainable. These changes run the gamut from encouraging reckless borrowing by consumers and government, to encouraging short term profits over long-term stability, to denigrating and decimating our manufacturing base in favor of service sector jobs, to a general view of government as a target for plunder as opposed to the provider of services that are not better provided by industry, to a general war-mongering mindset. I believe that we need a major reorginization of our national priorities as a nation. I believe that it not only OK but advisable for us to encourage companies to build their products here in the US, and to provide incentives to do so. Since health care is a major cost of doing business, we need to explore ways to keep the citizens healthy while not bankrupting our corporations in the process. I believe that our military should NEVER be used to further our economic interests. I believe that while capitalism is good, allowing Wall Street executives to turn our financial markets into casinos is bad, and should be outlawed.

I believe education, and innovative thought is good, and should be encouraged. I also believe working with one's hands is good, and should ALSO be encouraged. I believe that we should rebuild our PUBLIC education system in a way that encourages those with the intelligence and drive to succeed in research, engineering and teaching are encouraged to go to college, and those with manual and technical skills should be trained to make a decent living. I believe that the wealthy can take care of themselves and do not need gifts from the government. It is the 290 million people who are NOT wealthy who should be assisted in becoming productive members of our society.

I believe that government assistance should not be abolished, yet should not be a handout. It should have a purpose. That purpose should be to help those who are less fortunate or less capable to help themselves. I believe the elderly, who have given to their country their entire lives, should be allowed to live their final years in relative comfort. As the populace lives longer, old age begins later.

These are basic yet fundamental issues. We must at the same time adjust our programs for changing demographics while sharpening their focus. We must re-instill a belief and a demand that government should improve our lives, not take from it. And, while we are demanding these things, we must make the commitment to pay for it.

In making this self assessment of where we are failing as a country and as a society, where our government is failing and what it can and should be, I looked at the available candidates, and whether I believed each candidate was capable or willing to begin that conversation. While none are perfect, and many of my concerns have not been addressed by ANY of the candidates, I voted for the one I believe is most capable of addressing the issues I feel are most important to our future as a nation. I hope I voted correctly, and I hopr that person addresses those issues. As a voter, this is the most that I can do.

[BryanS]

Six more days until daylight...

John McCain's campaign, plan for America:

...let's keep it in Arizona.

[RedScare]

Obama Daily Show Interview

Obama admits that he is undergoing therapy to make sure that his white half does not vote against himself due to the 'Bradley Effect'.

[DJ V Lawrence]

Obama Daily Show Interview

Obama admits that he is undergoing therapy to make sure that his white half does not vote against himself due to the 'Bradley Effect'.

LOL!!

Yo, for shizzle, where does everyone plan on watching the election results on Tuesday? Anyone watching outside their homes? (Particularly moderate-minded crowds)?

[Reefmonkey]

Very eloquently said, Redscare.

[HtownWxBoy]

Obama Daily Show Interview

Obama admits that he is undergoing therapy to make sure that his white half does not vote against himself due to the 'Bradley Effect'.

OMG that interview was HILARIOUS... I love how Obama has such an awsome sense of humor!

LOL!!

Yo, for shizzle, where does everyone plan on watching the election results on Tuesday? Anyone watching outside their homes? (Particularly moderate-minded crowds)?

Probably at home... CNN High Definition on our Plasma TV.... got some champaign to celebrate and everything!

[Fringe]

That was hilarious and kudo's to Obama for having such a great sense of humor.

I still don't get this whole Obama African-American thing. He's half white, was raised by a white person and went to Harvard. In my book he's more white than black. I just don't get this "he's a black person so I'm not voting for him" thing that some whites have. Nor do I get the "he's black, that's why I'm voting for him" thing that blacks have. I think if those are ANYONES reason to vote than they should not be able to. Hopefully the two will cancel each other out.

[KinkaidAlum]

That was hilarious and kudo's to Obama for having such a great sense of humor.

I still don't get this whole Obama African-American thing. He's half white, was raised by a white person and went to Harvard. In my book he's more white than black. I just don't get this "he's a black person so I'm not voting for him" thing that some whites have. Nor do I get the "he's black, that's why I'm voting for him" thing that blacks have. I think if those are ANYONES reason to vote than they should not be able to. Hopefully the two will cancel each other out.

Obama is considered black because of historical context. The notion that if you have even a single black grandparent makes you black still exists.

Additionally, blacks almost always support the Democrats at an 85-90% clip. Obama really is only getting a bounce because more blacks are voting this time around. Additionally, I can't really fault them for this. It is history in the making.

[BryanS]

Just voted. It was a cleansing experience. I hope our country gets it right this time.

[Mark F. Barnes]

Good thing. Too many take the right to vote for granted. No matter who you vote for, always vote. People died for that right to do so.

Now you get to get the cool vote tag in your margin.....Rock on.

[millennica]

Obama is considered black because of historical context. The notion that if you have even a single black grandparent makes you black still exists.

Additionally, blacks almost always support the Democrats at an 85-90% clip. Obama really is only getting a bounce because more blacks are voting this time around. Additionally, I can't really fault them for this. It is history in the making.

Exactly! The idea was known by the term "one drop rule", which in the United States historically holds that a person with any trace of African ancestry was considered Black and subject to being held as slaves and later subject to the "Jim Crow" laws. This was a tactic in the South that strengthened and codified segregation and the disenfranchisement of Blacks.

During slavery and afterward Plessy vs Ferguson the Supreme Court Decision that legalized separate but equal, state legislatures adopted this rule to segregate Blacks. Tennessee, Texas, North Carolina, Louisiana, Florids, Kentucky, Maryland Missouri, Nebraska, Georgis and several other states had these laws and the one drop rule included people who were one, sixteenth and one thirty second Black. There were lots of half Black half white people who were held as slaves and later bound by Jim Crow. If they were light enough to pass as white, some of them did, which of course meant leaving their families behind as they dare not let the white community in which they were passing know they heritage. But others in the same family who weren't light enough to pass as white had to live as Black people. This is what happened with Sally Hemmings and Thomas Jefferson's children. Some of them lived as Black people and some of them who were light enough to pass simply blended into the white community. The Blacker the Berry, the Sweeter the Juice tells the story of a contemporary family some of whose members remained Black and others who became white.

In my own family, my great great grandfather was half-white, his father was his owner and his mother was a slave. My great great grandfather was much whiter looking than Obama and was raised by a white man--his father--, but lived as a Black man and was subject to everything that entailed throughout his life.

The "one drop rule" and the fact that no matter how light they might have been Black people were historically considered Black is one reason that Black folks cling so strongly to the belief that half-Black people are Black. Black people didn't make the rule, but it did become part of the way Black folks consider who is Black.

[rsb320]

I think you and I are pretty much in agreement, it's just a matter of viewpoint. I think McCain as better knowledge of foreign affairs, but wrongly is too inclined to go to war.I think Obama doesn't have the breadth and depth of knowledge of foreign affairs of MCain, but is less likely to go to war, and I would rather the president not be eager to go to war, it should be a last resort. Ultimately, Obama will have access to excellent briefings on foreign affairs as president, which will make up for his lack of knowledge now. Really, since a prsident can get great advisors, it comes down to a matter of temperment. I think Obama has a slower fuse, a more rational temperment. I have utmost respect for McCain as an American, as a courageous veteran, and as a principled, honest, and effective senator - I think he is a much better senator than Obama - but I think Obama's temperment and outward persona are what is best for america right now.

I think Joe Biden has more foreign affairs experience that all the other three combined.

[rsb320]

Very eloquently said, Redscare.

I know. I have the same exact views as Red. It was like reading something that I would've written, but I don't write that well.

[Fringe]

Exactly! The idea was known by the term "one drop rule", which in the United States historically holds that a person with any trace of African ancestry was considered Black and subject to being held as slaves and later subject to the "Jim Crow" laws. This was a tactic in the South that strengthened and codified segregation and the disenfranchisement of Blacks.

During slavery and afterward Plessy vs Ferguson the Supreme Court Decision that legalized separate but equal, state legislatures adopted this rule to segregate Blacks. Tennessee, Texas, North Carolina, Louisiana, Florids, Kentucky, Maryland Missouri, Nebraska, Georgis and several other states had these laws and the one drop rule included people who were one, sixteenth and one thirty second Black. There were lots of half Black half white people who were held as slaves and later bound by Jim Crow. If they were light enough to pass as white, some of them did, which of course meant leaving their families behind as they dare not let the white community in which they were passing know they heritage. But others in the same family who weren't light enough to pass as white had to live as Black people. This is what happened with Sally Hemmings and Thomas Jefferson's children. Some of them lived as Black people and some of them who were light enough to pass simply blended into the white community. The Blacker the Berry, the Sweeter the Juice tells the story of a contemporary family some of whose members remained Black and others who became white.

In my own family, my great great grandfather was half-white, his father was his owner and his mother was a slave. My great great grandfather was much whiter looking than Obama and was raised by a white man--his father--, but lived as a Black man and was subject to everything that entailed throughout his life.

The "one drop rule" and the fact that no matter how light they might have been Black people were historically considered Black is one reason that Black folks cling so strongly to the belief that half-Black people are Black. Black people didn't make the rule, but it did become part of the way Black folks consider who is Black.

Thanks for the info. I see what you mean. I have in my possession a letter or affidative if you will, from a lawyer that says I was "wholly white" that dates back to 1955. Found it in some old papers my mom had kept. Apparently it was needed to get into elementary school in New Orleans. I keep it just as a reminder of how screwed up things were back then.

[TheNiche]

In my own family, my great great grandfather was half-white, his father was his owner and his mother was a slave. My great great grandfather was much whiter looking than Obama and was raised by a white man--his father--, but lived as a Black man and was subject to everything that entailed throughout his life.

The "one drop rule" and the fact that no matter how light they might have been Black people were historically considered Black is one reason that Black folks cling so strongly to the belief that half-Black people are Black. Black people didn't make the rule, but it did become part of the way Black folks consider who is Black.

I dated a girl for a long time that was almost half-way Black. Among other more distant white ancestors, she had a white (German) grandmother. And she's got lots of stories about how when she attended elementary school at Lockhart Elementary in the 3rd Ward (the one featured in This is My Home, It's Not For Sale), other kids would make fun of her, steal from her, and physically abuse her because she was a "yellowbones." They became especially harsh after her grandmother picked her up from school one day.

I really think that it has more to do with culture. She may have been black but you certainly wouldn't know to talk to her on the phone. In fact, a lot of people mistake her for asian. My own grandmother thought that she was just the sweetest Chinese girl that she'd ever met!

And in the case of Obama, blacks didn't really seem to trust or gravitate to him over Hillary Clinton at first...right up until around the time that his association with Jerimiah Wright was exposed. Only then do I think that he became "black enough", which I interpret to mean that blacks felt more like they could relate to him on a personal level.

[HtownWxBoy]

Obama has pulled further ahead in all Gallup polls!

[RedScare]

This is jaw dropping in its ignorance of the 1st Amendment.

http://blogs.abcnews.com/politicalradar/20...-fears-med.html

For a candidate for high office to believe that the 1st Amendment guarantees that political candidates can say whatever they want, but that the PRESS cannot comment on it, is galling. Has Sarah Palin never even READ the 1st Amendment? Rather than spit and sputter myself, here is an analysis of what Palin is arguing...

http://www.salon.com/opinion/greenwald/200...alin/index.html

[dbigtex56]

The media have been more than kiind, considering Gov. Palin's refusal to meet with them, her frequent spouting of misinformation, her bizarre personal life. They have made every effort to conceal what can no longer be ignored: She's stupid.

Not naive. Not 'folksy'. She's genuinely dim-witted.

[RedScare]

The media have been more than kiind, considering Gov. Palin's refusal to meet with them, her frequent spouting of misinformation, her bizarre personal life. They have made every effort to conceal what can no longer be ignored: She's stupid.

Not naive. Not 'folksy'. She's genuinely dim-witted.

But, she has a gift for campaigning. She understands how to draw attention to herself, usually positive attention, but attention nonetheless. It is only when one scrutinizes what she actually SAYS (or does not say) that her intellectual laziness is shown. As long as she is smiling, winking and making witty one-liners during campaign stump speeches, she sounds fine. The sound-bite era has been good to her. The blogger era has been decidedly less kind.