Victory Park In Dallas

[tamtagon]

Granted, none of these have the master-planned feel of a lot of the efforts happening in Dallas, but in my mind the high-rise resi growth here is more explosive. 

Dallas is poised to have another master planned development to follow up the Victory and West Village developments. Back in the day, Trammel Crow and others got the Trinity river diverted near downtown and built hundreds of acers of warehouses. Preliminary plans has surfaced to redevelop a large portion of the warehouse district SSE of Victory. I dont know if the name will stick, but right now it's called Trinity Meander. I think the Meander holds the most promise to deliver architecture pleasing Dallas' incessant desire for 'worldclass' any and everything. Management of the Crow fortune has had a strong history of giving the city a reason to have an attitude, and the Crow Holdings control hundreds of acres between the just-getting-started Trinity River Park and Victory/uptown.

Dallas is just the place where master planned urban developments can thrive for a variety of reasons, the most important being that large underdeveloped blocks of land near the Central Business District are owned by philanthropic-leaning organizations (Crow, Meadows), with the desire to continue making money out of Dallas real estate.

So far, Victory is making good on the promise to build a unique environment in DFW and Texas, but every city in Texas is still lagging behind the national trend of central city rejuvenation.

Between the two cities, Houston and Dallas, the future is very promising for those looking for an urban lifestyle.

[Guest danax]

I think for those who do, it's about attitude, about being even closer to your work (if that's where you work) and the "heart" of the city, the idea of being cosmopolitan (rightly or wrongly in the assertion) and so forth.  It comes with a price tag, too.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Also the view...might be impressive in some units as well, although I wonder if being THAT much in the heart of the city would create a less-than-thrilling view, perhaps a feeling of being dwarfed.

I imagine the "perfect" view would be one where you were close enough for the skyline to nearly fill your window, meaning a location on the perimeter, maybe 1-2 miles from the edge of the skyscapers.

Eventually, will we see highrise condos encircling the skyline, say, in Midtown, 1st Ward, the near East End or the Near North?.

[UrbaNerd]

^^

Don't forget Allen Pkwy/Memorial Pkwy.

[aliciacw]

Victory's going to be great, but give Houston some time. It's not a race. We're building cities here, not suburbs. These buildings will (hopefully) be permenant structures lasting until long after we're gone. I'd rather wait a little longer and do it right. That said, Houston's starting to get it right. Check out Sunday's Chronicle. It's starting to happen and in a very good way. Victory will be very jealous.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Good and true words, large texas.

I am a Houston native, 23, living with my MOM NOW, THANK YOU (defensive) in the suburbs. The construction out here is total crap and all the mcmansions and volume builder homes and walmarts aren't built to last. I read an article recently that compared architecture in cities to the suburbs. Cities showcase architecture that was concieved with pride and constructed to showcase the resources and potential of the locale...suburbs are built in a hurry to make money. And those mc mansions popping up all around my school district are built for oneupmanship. I'm seeing many things that were 'built in a day', and it's an environment people 20 years from now will want no part in.

[MidtownCoog]

There is such a thing as living TOO close to work.

Viewing your office building from your living room is a pretty creepy concept.

[tamtagon]

There is such a thing as living TOO close to work.

Viewing your office building from your living room is a pretty creepy concept.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I know, right!?! haha

The office space component to this development is moving at a snail's pace compared to residential, retail and entertainment. In addition to the second Hotel W condo tower, another Victory residential building is shaping up across the street:

It's going to be 27 stories with a large curved facade on the south facing side (towards the W). I have not seen renderings, but am assured this will be a gorgeous tower. It's also by Hanover (developers of The Ashton) so would not be concerned about quality either.

One statement floating around out there states one of the buildings will be the tallest residential tower in the country outside of New York or Chicago. I dont know if that's a real intention for the developer or not, but it sounds fun. The folks bringing the Victory development into being are very secretive, and do not regularly publicize ground breakings. The most directive official statement offered by Victory proclaims that the success of initial two phases of the development will set the stage for the other two or three phases. The bulk of this go-round is scheduled to be "open" in 2006 (W hotel is about 10 stories tall today), and residential, retail and entertainment aspects of the area have dominated the focus of development. It remains to be seen how much office space will materialize in Victory. What they're putting together right now promises to deliver an exceptional platform on which to build, and they seems to be doing an exceptional job recruiting a unique set of retail/entertainment venues; if the business climate is robust in the last half of the decade, I'm expecting Victory to add significant amounts of Class A(+) to the downtown market.

All that said, for all the folks moving into Victory during the next couple years, shops, clubs and restaurants will be the only place to work.

[slfunk]

Victory is adding apartments

Houston builder also is working on rental project near Crescent

10:52 PM CST on Tuesday, January 18, 2005

By STEVE BROWN / The Dallas Morning News

A Houston builder is joining the Victory building boom.

Hanover Co. is planning a 28-story apartment tower, according to Ross Perot Jr., whose Hillwood Capital is a co-owner and developer of the Victory project near downtown. It will be on Houston Street near American Airlines Center.

The Houston builder is already working on the Ashton, a 21-story building a few blocks away at 2215 Cedar Springs Road across from the Crescent.

"Hanover is now coming into the project to build another 28-story tower of multi-family for rent product," Mr. Perot told builders meeting in Florida this weekend.

Mr. Perot said Victory will ultimately have 5,000 condos and apartments.

"You are now seeing a huge urban residential redevelopment boom," he said. "It's a trend that surprised us."

Hanover officials confirmed Tuesday that they're planning the Victory building.

"The Hanover Co. has interest in this site and is currently in the early phase of the due diligence cycle," said Hanover's Leah MacDougal. "We are not ready to comment further."

Construction has already begun on four residential buildings at Victory.

Mr. Perot's Hillwood Capital is building the 31-story W Dallas Victory Hotel and Residences. Last week, Hillwood announced that it's starting work on a 15-story condo tower attached to the W.

And Fairfield Development has broken ground on two residential buildings on Houston Street just north of Woodall Rodgers Freeway.

E-mail stevebrown@dallasnews.com

[Talbot]

Come back to Houston and get us some buildings!

[TxDave]

Good and true words, large texas.

I am a Houston native, 23, living with my MOM NOW, THANK YOU (defensive) in the suburbs. The construction out here is total crap and all the mcmansions and volume builder homes and walmarts aren't built to last. I read an article recently that compared architecture in cities to the suburbs. Cities showcase architecture that was concieved with pride and constructed to showcase the resources and potential of the locale...suburbs are built in a hurry to make money. And those mc mansions popping up all around my school district are built for oneupmanship. I'm seeing many things that were 'built in a day', and it's an environment people 20 years from now will want no part in.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I think you have stated the dilemma extremely well, aliciacw. Most of the development in the suburbs is sub-par and will be a detriment to our "urban areas" in 10-25 years. What will we do when all of the current "new" infrastructure is considered undesirable and everyone continues to move even further out leaving our current popular areas behind? When will it end?

Although, this is a little off-topic...

The Victory development in Dallas is good for the center city and (arguably) good for all of downtown Dallas.

[elecpharm]

Live TV Studio to anchor Dallas Downtown Project

Dallas is getting its own version of a downtown TV studio, similar to what is seen at Rockefeller Center in New York where the Today Show is broadcast. Hillwood, a Dallas realty company led by Ross Perot Jr ., has announced an agreement with Dallas-Fort Worth ABC affiliate WFAA-TV to incorporate a state-of-the-art television studio into the city

[zaphod]

i think these are just eye candy to draw people into the stores below. These signs make the area seem vibrant and exciting and will make people want to come to the fancy little shops to spend money. Not that bad of an idea IMO. and they arent too bad looking either. Bright lights are fun and big monster LED monitors are not percieved as cheap like other forms of signs these days. Im sure in 25 years this area will need to be updated to be nice again but until then who cares? Houston built a bunch of ugly crap in the 60's and whats still left you guys drool over and when they tear it down you whine how the world is ending. Give the next generation something to be upset about.

And why this Houston vs. Dallas stuff? we are both big cities in the great state of texas.

also, its not like NYC and Tokyo hold rights to this stuff. Other cities can use this why not?

Its like saying

"Chicago's EL sucks. They just ripped off NYC"

Edited April 7, 2006 by zaphod

[RedScare]

They may be eye candy for the shops below, but just as (or more) importantly, it is an advertising gimmick for WFAA. This will be a very big departure from the usual courtyard garden for the weatherman to stand in. It will allow WFAA to be a center of attention even when nothing is going on. The screens will definitely be a show. The bigger challenge will be making the rest of the plaza as exciting as the WFAA TV screens, with bars, restaurants and other activity. It can be done if Hillwood brings in the right tenant mix.

As for Houston immitating this approach, I'm not sure where it might be located without looking hokie. The only place that these things really work is in big shopping or entertainment areas, so the Galleria would be the only current location for that. I doubt they are interested. If the Pavilions project comes off well, and shopping and entertainment builds around it, the City could designate an area near or in Main Street Square as a "anything goes" zone. That might give some energy to the area.

Coog is correct that the City is fighting this trend elsewhere, though. There was a big fight over the LED boards at the theatre district. And, remember Cabo's attempt to put a light show around it's balcony? It got shot down.

[MidtownCoog]

Have y'all seen the LEDs at Toyota Center? They are pretty big, and even in the morning they are bright.

I could do without them. I think they are annoying.

Once you've seen it a couple of times, the thrill is over. Picadillly Circus, for example, plays the same old tired Coke, McDonalds and Toshiba adds over, and over, and over.

How exciting is that?

[Dallasboi]

i AGREE WITH YOU MIDTOWNECOOG. BUT HOWEVER THIS AREA WILL BE CHANGING FOR THE NEXT COULPLE OF YEARS IN A NON STOP FASHION SO IT WILL ALWAYS BE SOMETHING NEW TO GO SEE AT VICTORY.AND WHEN THEY STOP BUILDING VICTORY WILL HAVE A NAME FOR ITSELF BY THEN.

[MidtownCoog]

I think Laura Miller should put LEDs all over those signature bridges. Then the bridges could pay for themselves.

Talk about making a name for Dallas!

That would be so glitzy it would be mythic.

[hokieone]

I like the LED's on Jones Hall. I think its a great example of not going overboard, but still putting up something modern. The ones on Toyota Center are not awful, but are definitely more obnoxious than the Jones Hall ones. I see no huge problem with LED screens, but there definitely is a right way and a wrong way of putting them up.

[VelvetJ]

I think those giant LED screens are going to be cool and create a lot of excitement for the Victory development. I think it's going to be a great people area.

I actually think Houston could use some giant screens someplace like in Uptown, or even somewhere in Westchase like on a development at the intersection of Westheimer and the Beltway. I would love to see some "flash" in this city. I'm not saying the entire city should become covered in flash, but a couple of designated areas would be nice.

I also find it funny that in a city with no zoning and a city that would allow I-45 north and south to appear the way that they do, would fight such "flash" as LED screens with moving animation. I read somewhere once that one of the factors behind our Downtown sign ordinace was to keep something like a Times Square from happening. Again, in a city with no zoning? I find that quite Interesting.

Edited April 7, 2006 by VelvetJ

[The Great Hizzy!]

You know, I was looking at some photos of Toronto, Hong Kong and Tokyo and they had streetscapes dominated by all kinds of signage, lighted marquees, billboards and etc and I started thinking to myself that it looked more egregious and overbearing than what's on the North and South Freeways here in Houston.

Don't get me wrong, I agree that those billboards and 50-foot marquees along our freeways are ugly but I tend to pause when some snooty faux neo-urbanist acts like just because you're walking and not driving that that sort of garbage suddenly looks better. It doesn't. It's still congested advertising crapola.

I post that to say that I agree with Hokie One in that there's nothing particulary wrong with LED screens in and of themselves but that, like with everything, there's a right and a wrong way to do it. To have an urban environment look as cheesy and obnoxious as some of those streetscapes in Toronto or Hong Kong defeats the whole purpose. Not saying that this is what Victory Plaza will look like, just that it could if not handled well.

[zaphod]

Sure it has some pretty glass towers, but HK is also extremely butt ugly. without all those signs the streets would like there was a nuclear war.

[2112]

Ohhhh, burned!

Only in your mind.

It's bound to happen on any thread in which developments in Dallas are presented to the Houston crowd. Nothing good coming out of Dallas has ever been discussed on this forum without an unrelated rebuttal citing an aspect of Houston perceived to be better. It's all together unfortunate, entertaining, educational and an inherent quality of most forums like this.

[2112 sticks toungue out in childish display]

[Dallasboi]

[713 To 214]

[dalparadise]

I love the idea of the Victory project. I also, on the old board, recommended a "Times Square"-type compromise for Houston, where we might remove billboards along freeways in favor of allowing "spectaculars" in Market Square and the area around there. So, this concept is not one that I have a problem with.

My problem is with these two anonymous wings that they're using to hold up this advertising. The procession to AA Center is killed. The really nice architecture of the arena is masked, in favor of what looks like a hospital parking garage. And the whole thing looks like a train wreck. Furthermore, the Ads and lighted signage would make for a really energetic streetscape, as in NY, London and other places. But here, it looks as if it all faces a pedestrian plaza, only.

I've grown to love the spirit in Dallas over the last few years and it's been six years since I lived there (briefly). They could learn a thing or two about thinking with their heads as well as their hearts when it comes to the built environment, though. Exuberence is a wonderful thing when building a city -- it can make a place feel alive. But, when you destroy something that was already powerful -- either physically, or in this case, visually -- you've done more harm than good.

These things are terrible.

Edited April 10, 2006 by dalparadise

[largeTEXAS]

I really like the look of the buildings. This is great for Dallas! The pedestrian plaza could end up great or could be rather strange. I guess we'll have to see.

713 to 214, if you have more photos could you post them? I don't understand the whole connectivity aspect of the project. Is it all inward facing or does it connect to the 'hood?

[WesternGulf]

That whole Victory project is quality.

[MexAmerican_Moose]

yeah, that beautiful AA Arena will look weird next to that Victory place.

[Dallasboi]

I basically work right across the street ,so I've watched this thing go up.From my everyday observing it,it seems to blend perfectly!.....I think it's a development that would have to be enjoyed in person to get the most accurate judgement of it's architecture.

[rantanamo]

The video will not only face the plaza, plus there will be plenty more signage. Keep in mind this is only phase II. And I agree that the buildings really fit good together in person. The horizontal lines especially fit wonderfully with the horizontal lines of the AAC. The view coming out of the AAC is even more spectacular than the renderings. Can't wait to see this all lit up in the summer with the lighted fountains going.

[713 To 214]

The view coming out of the AAC is even more spectacular than the renderings. Can't wait to see this all lit up in the summer with the lighted fountains going.

I agree tam. . .and I can hardly wait until the House of Blues opens up in the White Swan Building that's in the foreground of this picture:

[2112]

I dont think Victory is a bad thing at all. It's actually kinda neat. But I have said it many times: it's the relentless comparisons with New York that bugs that crap out of me. And now, a comparison to Tokyo. Geez! The reason for the annoyance is simple: Dallas does not even come close to anything New York. And when they constantly do that kinda thing, it is embarrasing, and it's embarrasing to the state of Texas. This is one of my biggest gripes, this darn awefull comparisons coming left and right. San Antonio is an example of a great city with much depth in culture and history, and it is a city that seems to never say to the world "look at us, and how culturally sophisticated we are" The whole Dallas "Were like New York" thing just smells of so much arrogance and self reference, that sometimes I just want to puke. But that's just me.