Are downtowns in danger of going downhill again?

[CasaNova]

http://realestate.msn.com/Buying/Article_busweek.aspx?cp-documentid=8356625

Many ambitious programs to revitalize downtowns of cities across the U.S. are stalling as the economy slows.

By Chermelle D. Edwards and Prashant Gopal, BusinessWeek

But everything has changed for Tampa and for many other cities because of the housing slump and foreclosure crisis, which were intensified by the year-old credit crunch. Only about 3,500 of the planned condo units have been built or are under construction in Tampa's downtown area, and many remain vacant. Office construction has been delayed.

Optimism for cities

"It was a false start, you might say," said Patrick Berman, senior director of retail brokerage for Cushman & Wakefield Florida, a real-estate advisory group. "The market really slowed down. It was difficult to finance deals. People made deposits on condos and didn't close."

Edited October 9, 2008 by editor
copyright

[Subdude]

Interesting stuff. Back in 2003 a lot of cities were thinking about how to attract the "creative class" but I suspect now most have more bread and butter issues to deal with. That said, I think it is worth the effort to continue to try to revitalize downtowns. Nobody would benefit from the return of the urban wastelands of the 1060s-1980s.

I would even have to question his reasons why cities have reason to be hopeful. Commodity prices has been plunging and the dollar gaining value.

[fewellman]

I really hope not, Houston's down town has come along way but it still has a long way to go. and if development stops i think it will die again. people will just go to work and go home with people coming for the occasional sporting event.

[LTAWACS]

I really hope not, Houston's down town has come along way but it still has a long way to go. and if development stops i think it will die again. people will just go to work and go home with people coming for the occasional sporting event.

I hate to say this but it's going to be near death again... just like in the old days. ugh.

[musicman]

I hate to say this but it's going to be near death again... just like in the old days. ugh.

there's quite a bit more going on now vs the old days. will growth slow down? most likely with the credit crunch however near death would be stretching it.

[totheskies]

Actually I don't think so, for a couple of reasons...

Houston got a lot of the better projects off the ground and financed before we hit the credit crisis (thinking more like OPP, Discovery Green and Main Place here). By better, I mean the most logical ones... all are downtown, and help to contribute to the city's sustainability. A few that are still on the chopping block... like the new hotels planned near the convention center, 6HC, etc. will most definitely be stalled out , but I think they have a good chance once the market gains some liquidity. As far as Houston Pavilions is concerned, I hope the whole project can make it (House of Blues is already a lock, but the rest I'm a bit worried about). It does really boost downtown for visitors, and shows us off as a place with something going on.

We also have to remember that Houston is out of phase with the rest of the US... our economy is still tipping along, especially in terms of consumer spending, job creation, etc. It's going to probably hit us once everyone else had started to rebound. Downtown Houston though, is going to only get stronger b/c we've made some key improvements in the last two years.

[houstonmacbro]

I hate to say this but it's going to be near death again... just like in the old days. ugh.

The good ole days were awful. Beautiful office towers, but nothing to do after 4p. I think even the library closed around 5...

[memebag]

The good ole days were awful. Beautiful office towers, but nothing to do after 4p. I think even the library closed around 5...

Awful if all you wanted to do is shop and eat. If you wanted to skate, the good ole days were fantastic!

[RedScare]

Actually I don't think so, for a couple of reasons...

We also have to remember that Houston is out of phase with the rest of the US... our economy is still tipping along, especially in terms of consumer spending, job creation, etc. It's going to probably hit us once everyone else had started to rebound. Downtown Houston though, is going to only get stronger b/c we've made some key improvements in the last two years.

I wouldn't be so sure about that. Home prices have held, but sales have been dropping for a year. We get our credit from the same places everyone else does, and they ain't lending. Plus, though local stocks were hanging tough, they fell off a cliff today. Exxon, Chevron and Conoco (not local, but oil) all fell 12-13% just today. Continental has lost 50% in less than a month. AIG is not here, but American General employees own AIG stock.

That's just 5 companies. Think of how many shares of those stocks are owned in Houston. Do you think any of those people feel rich right now? Just because it has not hit our paycheck yet, does not mean it has not hit Houston. It has.

[Montrose1100]

I wouldn't be so sure about that. Home prices have held, but sales have been dropping for a year. We get our credit from the same places everyone else does, and they ain't lending. Plus, though local stocks were hanging tough, they fell off a cliff today. Exxon, Chevron and Conoco (not local, but oil) all fell 12-13% just today. Continental has lost 50% in less than a month. AIG is not here, but American General employees own AIG stock.

That's just 5 companies. Think of how many shares of those stocks are owned in Houston. Do you think any of those people feel rich right now? Just because it has not hit our paycheck yet, does not mean it has not hit Houston. It has.

Absolutely... Even my dad overseas whom was about to retire this year (working for a Houston based company), has now decided to work a few more years or at least until this thing works out...

[dudemeister]

Once the economy gets back into full swing, I don't think downtowns are in danger since the era of cheap and plentiful oil is over.

Besides many singles or married couples w/o children are not going to be attracted to the suburban areas,instead opting to be closer to their job as well as other cultural ametities without having to drive for 15 to 30 minutes to enjoy them.

Edited October 13, 2008 by dudemeister

[TheNiche]

Once the economy gets back into full swing, I don't think downtowns are in danger since the era of cheap and plentiful oil is over.

Besides many singles or married couples w/o children are not going to be attracted to the suburban areas,instead opting to be closer to their job as well as other cultural ametities without having to drive for 15 to 30 minutes to enjoy them.

Fuel cost is a double-edged sword for downtowns. The young educated professionals that like to live near downtowns aren't really the demographics that are at all involved in firms' locational decisions. It is the formerly young educated professionals that now have kids and live in the suburbs, occupying upper- and middle-management slots that tend to have input on decisions of that sort. And frankly, reverse or suburb-to-suburb commuting is often easier on distance and takes place at higher average speeds, reducing the consumption of fuel. ...but then, fuel isn't even remotely close to being the chief factor influencing firm location.

[Geoff8201]

Downtown is nothing like it was in decades past. It's more than a place to work... with Minute Maid Park, Toyota Center, the Light Rail feeding right into it, HP, Discovery Green, Restaurants, Bars/Clubs, Concert Venues and countless other amenities (I'm sure everyone could name many others specifically), things would have to get pretty bad for Downtown to go that far downhill beyond a little slowdown of visitors and a few new construction projects getting scrapped or delayed. Besides, if it did get as bad as "LTAWACS" thinks it could, I really think the last thing on our minds would be the well-being of that area of town and more on our indivisual situations.

Stay optimistic!

[Reefmonkey]

The good ole days were awful. Beautiful office towers, but nothing to do after 4p. I think even the library closed around 5...

As a kid in the 80s, I remember Downtown Houston being practically a ghost town even during the day, and absolutely deserted after 5. Going to see shows was always an adventure. At the Music Hall, it was okay, as you could park in the ramshackle garage that teetered over the Bayou, but going to shows at Jones Hall, it was usually surface lots. We'd sprint from the car to Jones Hall before the performance, and immediately sprint out after the performance. Only once or twice do I remember going to dinner downtown - once to Harry's Kenya for their pretheatre menu, and a couple of times to the Irish-Italian bar and restaurant - shoot, why am I locking up on the name - the chain, which included the one downtown and the one next to the River Oaks movie theater. I don't know if the downtown one is open, but the one on West Gray closed a few years ago.

[musicman]

and a couple of times to the Irish-Italian bar and restaurant - shoot, why am I locking up on the name - the chain, which included the one downtown and the one next to the River Oaks movie theater. I don't know if the downtown one is open, but the one on West Gray closed a few years ago.

birraporetti's? the downtown one is open.

[SecondTour]

My screen name references the fact that I've lived in Houston twice. I lived here in the 70s, moved shortly after I graduated in 1980. I lived in the old apartment building on the corner of Smith & Tuam.

For those of you who were here back then, you may remember it being a ghost town compared to now. There was nothing across the street in either direction and only a Baby Giant next door. Beyond that, it was desolate headed into downtown. Plenty of boarded up buildings and empty lots. Once you did get downtown, there was nothing to do if it was after five. Truthfully, not much to do any time. After dark, it was all but shut down. I worked second shift, so I was home by 10:30 every night. I would ride my bicycle around downtown nearly every night. Not much to see other than the boarded up Rice Hotel or watching the presses printing the Chronicle. For a late night meal, I'd ride over to Shipley's on West Gray for chicken fried steak.

Needless to say, living here now, the entire downtown area is unrecognizable from when I lived here before. Movies, restaurants, parks, bars, shopping, Minute Maid Park, Toyota Center, high rise apartments, light rail, etc. It's an amazing transformation. Even my old apartment building has been remodeled. I used to park my motorcycle inside the front door so that I didn't have to leave it outside. No front door now. ?

I expect the development to slow down of course and these are going to be tough times financially for a while. However, I can't imagine a decline into the state it was in when I lived here before.

[rsb320]

I used to roller skate downtown at night in the 80's and it was really dead. We used to skate in the street and on the sidewalk, in parking garages and right up to the bars and order a beer. I'd imagine there's a lot more activity these days.

Living here for 30 years and then working downtown again for the first time in a long time, it still strikes me as odd when people are walking their dogs at all times throughout the day. I'm just not used to people actually living in DT now. I think it's totally cool.

Oh yes, and I remember when Midtown was a scab on a nasty wound. Major accomplishments have been made - let's keep it going.

[LTAWACS]

Once the economy gets back into full swing, I don't think downtowns are in danger since the era of cheap and plentiful oil is over.

Besides many singles or married couples w/o children are not going to be attracted to the suburban areas,instead opting to be closer to their job as well as other cultural ametities without having to drive for 15 to 30 minutes to enjoy them.

So is this why more and more companies are moving to or relocating to the suburbs? Look at Anadarko in the woods and look at some companies in the "energy corridor".

[celiene]

"So is this why more and more companies are moving to or relocating to the suburbs? Look at Anadarko in the woods and look at some companies in the "energy corridor".

I can't speak for the Energy Corridor, but Anadarko got some pretty sizable tax breaks for locating in "The Woods"..........

Edited November 1, 2008 by celiene

[rsb320]

Pinch me. Am I in Houston? Two guys were tossing a football in Market Square at lunchtime today. I really like seeing more people living DT these days.

I don't think our DT is going downhill, actually, quite the opposite. That may be the case in other cities, but we always seem to buck the trend of the rest of the nation.

[IronTiger]

I feel that the whole effort was misguided. Take Bryan, Texas. They went through a major process of remodeling everything, pouring taxes into new roads and pedestrian sidewalks, and adding goofy new statues and clocks. I kind of miss the old downtown, and now it's a fake-looking strip with a hotel that continually loses money, a landmark theater that continues to fall apart, and all sorts of junky niche stores no one cares about. Top that off with the fact that the official website has no map of the place. Yeah, it does have a neat street-side pharmacy, but the location as a whole is miserable. They should've just knocked out a few blocks to make a shopping mall incorporating the LaSalle Hotel and Queen Theater.