Pasadena Homeowner Kills Men Burglarizing Neighbor's House

[jmancuso]

apparently some people think heroes shoot people in the back as they try to flee.

[RedScare]

apparently some people think heroes shoot people in the back as they try to flee.

That term has been devalued more than the dollar, as evidenced by its use in this topic.

[20thStDad]

1. He shouldn't have done it, but I disagree that some of you are saying it was premeditated. By definition yeah he said he was going to do it, but you could hear him getting all worked up, worried, and slightly panicked during the call. The situation is what caused his demeanor to change. Premeditation to me is planning, this was a reaction, and just because we could hear it unfold for 5 minutes doesn't mean it wasn't one. It's not like he was plotting to kill those dudes the week before.

2. No, I don't feel sorry whatsoever for the guys that got shot. Did they "deserve" it? No, but they created their own situation. You screw around stealing people's things and you are playing with fire. Deal with the consequences. Like I said earlier, the thieves in Houston are still winning by a wide margin over their victims. They hardly ever get caught, much less punished. And we NEVER get our stuff back even if they get caught.

[RedScare]

Premeditation (or "intentional", as it is defined in Texas law), does not require weeks of planning. It can be formed in an extremely short period of time. In this case, the statements, I'm not gonna let 'em get away with it", and I'm gonna kill 'em", recorded for posterity by the 911 operator, easily qualify as an intential or "premeditated" act, regardless what personal definition you may attach to it. The fact that Texas law allows (or at least Texas Grand Juries do) intential killing of those taking a neighbor's property does not change the definition of premeditation or intent. It merely makes it a defense to murder.

The question of what one's individual maker thinks of the taking of a life to protect a house full of plastic made in China, however, is not addressed, either in Texas law or by me. That is left to each individual...and Joe Horn...to contemplate.

[20thStDad]

The law is what it is and that's fine. I'm not trying to redefine it. Intentional, yes. A reaction, yes. Stupid, yes. Necessary, hell no. Probably should have been indicted, but I wouldn't have convicted him. I wouldn't have sentenced the 2 idiots to death for stealing either, but life isn't alway fair. I will never feel sorry for criminals who run into trouble while committing crimes.

[RedScare]

The law is what it is and that's fine. I'm not trying to redefine it. Intentional, yes. A reaction, yes. Stupid, yes. Necessary, hell no. Probably should have been indicted, but I wouldn't have convicted him. I wouldn't have sentenced the 2 idiots to death for stealing either, but life isn't alway fair. I will never feel sorry for criminals who run into trouble while committing crimes.

Agreed. Nowhere do I express sympathy for burglars who certainly accepted the risk of their actions and lost. However, neither will I applaud the overreaction of Mr. Horn. And, further, I will not bend the meanings of words to make his actions appear laudable. In every other circumstance, shooting someone in the back is considered an act of cowardice. Rather than change the meanings of words to allow me to feel better about myself, I prefer to use the words as they exist in common usage, and live life in a state of reality, rather than fantasy.

I am not surprised at the actions of the grand jury, and doubt a petit jury would have convicted. These facts do not allow me to ascribe new meaning to Mr. Horn's actions, however. They are what they are.

[houstonmacbro]

What happens in a theoretical situation where I have asked someone (friends, relatives, or immigrant dudes I pick up on the street over off Westpark) to move my things (unbeknown to my neighbors who fear foul play and accuse my movers of stealing).

So they (movers) back up, maybe run at the sight of a gun and get shot.

I am not saying this situation is remotely possibly, but it could happen.

(Also, I am not justifying the actions of the burglars. Stealing is wrong and I certainly would want my neighbors to call the cops if something like this were happening).

However, when someone takes actions that prove to be judge, jury, and executioner you see what we get.

[20thStDad]

Rather than change the meanings of words to allow me to feel better about myself, I prefer to use the words as they exist in common usage, and live life in a state of reality, rather than fantasy.

I accepted your definition by law of premeditated, I didn't know how the law defined it until you explained it. I was just saying that I classify it as a very poor reaction to the situation. That's not fantasy, it's fact, and it also negates my previous disagreement that it should be termed premeditated, which I'm fine with. I think we agree here. I'm not celebrating anything about this incident.

[crunchtastic]

However, when someone takes actions that prove to be judge, jury, and executioner you see what we get.

Yes, I see what we get. A deeply disturbing grand jury ruling. I can't help but wonder how many of the 'hero' crowd are people with CHLs who's personal definition of self defense allows for killing a thief on someone else's property, while the thief was leaving the scene.

I'm a gun owner, and the prospect of being outnumbered by the Joe Horns of the world, with their utter disregard for the rule of law, chills me to the bone.

[TheNiche]

I will not bend the meanings of words to make his actions appear laudable. In every other circumstance, shooting someone in the back is considered an act of cowardice.

If I were his neighbor, I'd have considered it more of a personal favor than cowardice.

Recovery of stolen items isn't common, and anybody that steals from me deserves to meet an immediate and violent end (including the guys that got all my scrap copper earlier this year). That's all there is to it IMHO.

[webdude]

I would be concerned and pissed if someone lives next to me, sees a thief at my place and does nothing about it, but I would be more concerned at someone who lives next to me and thinks they can takes the law into their own and go around killing other criminals. IMO, Horn deserves death as much as the two robbers.

I can empathize the thought of wanting to kill those criminals, but if we follow through with that, what is to prevent other neighbors from taking the law into their own hands, that is, if I see someone like Horn shooting two other guys in the back, what is to prevent me from shooting at Horn, since I can also argue that he is dangerous.

[Fringe]

Joe Horn told a cop he would go outside and shoot two men, the cop told him not to

He did not tell that to a cop. He told that to a dispatcher. BIG difference.

[TJones]

What happens in a theoretical situation where I have asked someone (friends, relatives, or immigrant dudes I pick up on the street over off Westpark) to move my things (unbeknown to my neighbors who fear foul play and accuse my movers of stealing).

So they (movers) back up, maybe run at the sight of a gun and get shot.

I am not saying this situation is remotely possibly, but it could happen.

(Also, I am not justifying the actions of the burglars. Stealing is wrong and I certainly would want my neighbors to call the cops if something like this were happening).

However, when someone takes actions that prove to be judge, jury, and executioner you see what we get.

Macbro, are your friends, relatives, immigrant dudes, you asked to move your stuff, gonna have to break your windows with crowbars to gain access to your house, and then move everything in pillowcases as they crawl back out through the same broken out window ?

[houstonmacbro]

Macbro, are your friends, relatives, immigrant dudes, you asked to move your stuff, gonna have to break your windows with crowbars to gain access to your house, and then move everything in pillowcases as they crawl back out through the same broken out window ?

Gosh I'd hope not. But you know how these houses are? You cannot see your next door neighbors' front doors from your front door or even side windows. They could just see people taking stuff in and out.

It is a theoretical, but not impossible.

[TJones]

Gosh I'd hope not. But you know how these houses are? You cannot see your next door neighbors' front doors from your front door or even side windows. They could just see people taking stuff in and out.

It is a theoretical, but not impossible.

In and out of a broken window that a neighbor saw men with crowbars breaking, crawling in through the broken window. Your hypothetical is just too far-fetched, because any reasonable person who is GRANTED access to the home by the owner is either one, gonna give them a key, two, leave a door unlocked for them, or three, the person gaining access and has permission to be there, will open a door once access is gained, even if they had to break-in.

But, if this is how people in your neighborhood move, then perhaps you DO need to move to a better neighborhood ?

[RedScare]

He did not tell that to a cop. He told that to a dispatcher. BIG difference.

[Mark F. Barnes]

Only difference I can think of, would be that dispatchers are not generally "sworn peace officers" just employees of the police department. However stating that to one or the other is really of no difference relatively. The statement maintains the same strength, no matter who you say it to.

[TJones]

Could you explain what that difference is, legally speaking?

I've had to break into my own house on more than one occasion, and both times I went through a window, since the door was tougher to enter. It wasn't hypothetical for me. It was all too real. And, I've seen FAR more far-fetched scenarios than macbro described. Maybe you should get out of the subdivision once in awhile.

And when you exited your home again, did you go out the same window you broke into or did you use your door ? Do you regularly enter and exit through your broken out window carrying a pillowcase and a crowbar ?

[memebag]

Do you regularly enter and exit through your broken out window carrying a pillowcase and a crowbar ?

Hold on there. Are you arguing that here in the land of the free, if I decide to crawl out of a broken window in my house or my friend's house, carrying a pillowcase and crowbar, that I deserve to be shot in the back?

[RedScare]

And when you exited your home again, did you go out the same window you broke into or did you use your door ? Do you regularly enter and exit through your broken out window carrying a pillowcase and a crowbar ?

Eh, you're right, TJ. Life is neat and orderly. No one ever does anything unpredictable, and all neighbors always know what all of their other neighbors are doing and why. And, most importantly, gun owners, because they are patriotic and heroic Americans, NEVER shoot the wrong guy.....ever.

Jeez, what was I thinking?

[TJones]

Hold on there. Are you arguing that here in the land of the free, if I decide to crawl out of a broken window in my house or my friend's house, carrying a pillowcase and crowbar, that I deserve to be shot in the back?

Are you obviously robbing your friend's house ? Are you gonna start running if someone draws down on you and says, "You move, and your dead!", or will you be a reasonable person, comply and turn to stone until you can sort out the situation ?

[RedScare]

Are you obviously robbing your friend's house ? Are you gonna start running if someone draws down on you and says, "You move, and your dead!", or will you be a reasonable person, comply and turn to stone until you can sort out the situation ?

And what would YOU do if some numbnut drew down on YOU, TJ? Is this what living in a free society has come to? Are you gun freaks so obsessed that we all have to put up with yahoos drawing down on us every time THEY don't know what's going on? Have you lost your friggin' mind?

READ what you are writing, man!

[TJones]

And what would YOU do if some numbnut drew down on YOU, TJ? Is this what living in a free society has come to? Are you gun freaks so obsessed that we all have to put up with yahoos drawing down on us every time THEY don't know what's going on? Have you lost your friggin' mind?

READ what you are writing, man!

Ok, reverse it, a criminal puts a gun to YOUR head and says "gimme your wallet!" Being the reasonable person that I know you are, will you comply or are you gonna turn and run ?

Now think about what YOU are writing. You don't go out and rob people, you don't break into people's homes with crowbars. You don't lunge at them with a weapon in your hand, now do you.

[memebag]

Are you obviously robbing your friend's house ? Are you gonna start running if someone draws down on you and says, "You move, and your dead!", or will you be a reasonable person, comply and turn to stone until you can sort out the situation ?

Mr. Horn didn't say that. He said "Boom, you're dead!" I don't think it mattered what I did; I think Mr. Horn would have shot me. But it shouldn't matter what I do. Unless I'm coming into Mr. Horn's house and threatening him, Mr. Horn can keep his projectiles out of my body.

[TJones]

Mr. Horn didn't say that. He said "Boom, you're dead!" I don't think it mattered what I did; I think Mr. Horn would have shot me. But it shouldn't matter what I do. Unless I'm coming into Mr. Horn's house and threatening him, Mr. Horn can keep his projectiles out of my body.

How could you possibly know what Mr. Horn was gonna do, did you know Mr. Horn personally before you went robbing his neighbor's house ? That wasn't the question though. Maybe you can answer it now. Just to be fair and let's assume that you are a reasonable, non-criminal type person, would you normally turn and run if someone pulled a gun on you, or would you turn to statue?

Do you think Mr.Horn shot these two at point blank range or were the criminals standing in the neighbor's yard still when he took them out ?

[memebag]

How could you possibly know what Mr. Horn was gonna do, did you know Mr. Horn personally before you went robbing his neighbor's house ?

I know what Mr. Horn was going to do in this instance because he told the 911 dispatcher what he was going to do. He didn't say "I'll shoot them if they threaten me" or "I'll defend myself", he said he was going to go outside and shoot them.

That wasn't the question though. Maybe you can answer it now. Just to be fair and let's assume that you are a reasonable, non-criminal type person, would you normally turn and run if someone pulled a gun on you, or would you turn to statue?

I don't know. Either way, it doesn't mean someone is allowed to shoot me.

Do you think Mr.Horn shot these two at point blank range or were the criminals standing in the neighbor's yard still when he took them out ?

None of the reports I've read put them at point blank range.

[TJones]

I know what Mr. Horn was going to do in this instance because he told the 911 dispatcher what he was going to do. He didn't say "I'll shoot them if they threaten me" or "I'll defend myself", he said he was going to go outside and shoot them.

I don't know. Either way, it doesn't mean someone is allowed to shoot me.

None of the reports I've read put them at point blank range.

You never took the time to read this, back on page 4 of this thread, did you ?

"Corbett said the plainclothes detective, whose name has not been released, had parked in front of Horn's house in response to the 911 call. He saw the men between Horn's house and his neighbor's before they crossed into Horn's front yard.Corbett believes neither Horn nor the men knew a police officer was present.

"It was over within seconds. The detective never had time to say anything before the shots were fired," Corbett said. "At first, the officer was assessing the situation. Then he was worried Horn might mistake him for the 'wheel man' (get-away driver). He ducked at one point."

When Horn confronted the suspects in his yard, he raised his shotgun to his shoulder, Corbett said. However the men ignored his order to freeze.

Corbett said one man ran toward Horn, but had angled away from him toward the street when he was shot in the back just before reaching the curb.

"The detective confirmed that this suspect was actually closer to Horn after he initiated his run than at the time when first confronted," said Corbett. "Horn said he felt in jeopardy.""

[ricco67]

I'll let you guys duke it out, but my two cents on this is that I have no problem shooting anyone entering my home or my neighbor's home if I think they were being burglarized.

Some people say that "stuff" isn't worth killing over, what I have to say is that I don't want MY stuff that *I* paid for being the property of someone whom I did not give it to willingly. That STUFF represents time I spent at work to purchase and I won't sit idle while it is being stolen by those that are unwilling to work for a living.

[Chamo]

I am from Colombia, just like these two crooks were......... I have been legally in the US for more than 10 years; I can assure you that it has not been an easy ride, but after 8 hard years I was finally able to become a legal resident of this great country. I am lucky to be part of this land of freedom and opportunities.

Back in Colombia these two guys were probably accustomed to stealing without worrying about the law, as I saw many times. Unfortunately values and respect for others have been brought to their knees due to a long internal civil war, bad politicians and lack of education. Keep in mind that this two guys not only broke the law being here illegally, they were breaking the law by intruding in to somebody's else private property.

While I do not agree with the whole situation and shooting at somebody's back, I just hope that Mr. Horn actions and care about his safety and safety of his neighbors, will keep crooks like these out of this country or at least it will make them think twice before trying to come here for the wrong reasons.

[Ralo]

Forgive me, I did a search and couldn't find anything on this topic and that surprises me so maybe I missed a discussion somewhere.

The City of Pasadena released the 911 tapes of the guy who observed two guys burglarizing his neighbors' house in broad daylight and went outside and shot and killed them when the cops didn't show up. There are more comments on the Chronicle story than just about any story I have ever seen.

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/front/5306638.html

Seems that the slight consensus is that the guy is more a hero than a murderer, but personally I'm torn. I do think he did the right thing and I think if someone is going to be so brazen and disregarding of their fellow citizens as to break into someone's house in broad daylight and rob them, they deserve whatever they get. It's just wrong and a general lack of consequences - in all areas, not just crime - is what I feel causes a lot of the problems we have in today's society.

That said, the guy was in his house next door and wasn't threatened at all (until he chose to go outiside and confront them), his property was not being taken, and he's recorded on the phone saying that he planned to go outside and "kill" them if the cops didn't show up, which is what happened. Techincally, that is a clear cut case of murder.

I don't know what to think. I'm inclined to say he should be convicted of a lesser charge and do some probation but probably shouldn't go to prison. He needs to be punished, but not treated like a common criminal, either.

He is probably neither a hero, nor a murderer but just a scared survivor. I don't own a gun but if I did and was in his shoes I would like to think I would have held the idiots at gunpoint until help arrived. If they did not comply with my request I would have shot them in the leg or in the buttocks. But in the heat of the moment, you can't blame the guy for taking action.