Houston City Centre

[TheNiche]

I think it will be a long time before we hear anything about this, since at this point it doesn't seem to be much more than a rendering instead of a serious development proposal like the Disco Tower. A lot of proposals get thrown around, but few make it to completion. Still, it would be great if this were built.

EDIT: ***The following is an error. Please disregard.****

This one is already under way. And we don't even have a rendering for Discovery Tower, which I would think is one component of a serious proposal.

Edited May 17, 2007 by TheNiche

[Subdude]

Is it really under way? I didn't realize. That's great news. At least with Disco Tower the developer has purchased the land, which it seems was an issue at the Main/Texas location.

[The Great Hizzy!]

It's underway? Are you sure you're not confusing this with the Town & Country Center development, Niche? If not, then could you elaborate.

[TheNiche]

It's underway? Are you sure you're not confusing this with the Town & Country Center development, Niche? If not, then could you elaborate.

Oh, shoot! Sorry folks. False alarm.

[marc]

As many of you may know from past posts, i lived in Houston and Austin most of my life. I had to move to LA for career reasons, BUT am planning on moving back to Houston in about a year or so. Anyway, in response to comments regarding LA's skyline verses Houston's. Maybe i am biased, but i think Houston beats LA's skyline hands down. AND Houston's skyline has been given more accolades; which i feel is rightfully given. When i came to LA, one of the first things i did was go DT to see what was what. Until recently, i must say, it didn't offer much. LA's DT is finally getting some additions which i think will make its skyline more attractive, but i think Houston's is much more appealing. I like DT Houston's variety. Many LA skyscrapers look similar- with one or two exceptions. I do like the Library Tower, but that's where it sort of ends with me. I must say, i prefer the Wilshire District (which is similar to our Galleria Area) skyscrapers, even though they are not nearly as tall.

LA definately impresses with its sprawl and variety of topography (hills, beaches, and the flatness of the Valley) but i think it is lacking in remarkable skyscrapers.

Too bad a Trump-like developer who has tons of money and a huge ego to match, wouldn't vow to put the "tallest" scraper in the top 10-20 US cities. Oh well, until then, we can only hope that we get a "supertall" or even a "tall" sometime in the near future.

m.

Edited May 17, 2007 by marc

[Trae]

From SSP:

Kobi Karp has updated the site map layouts that were dead links for the renderings..

[pm91]

im trying to load up the website to see more but it isnt working. is there a trick to thier website that you need to know before you use it?

[fernz]

From SSP:

Kobi Karp has updated the site map layouts that were dead links for the renderings..

That's the Shamrock site! That block is supposedly being developed by Hines.

[Trae]

No, you just go here. Search under projects, then mixed-use commercial.

[Triton]

That's the Shamrock site! That block is supposedly being developed by Hines.

No, I thought the Shamrock site was closer to the inner-core of the city.

[fernz]

No, I thought the Shamrock site was closer to the inner-core of the city.

Nope. That's it right there. On Main Street, across the street from the Chase parking garage and catty corner from the Rice Hotel.

[GovernorAggie]

Well I hope it's a go. If Hines can take on a massive new condo tower project in Detroit, the company can certainly do that here, I'd say.

[ricco67]

You're kidding right? Shamrock is dead and THIS is going to go up?

Anyone have any additional info? I'm about ready to do a happy dance.

[Triton]

You're kidding right? Shamrock is dead and THIS is going to go up?

Anyone have any additional info? I'm about ready to do a happy dance.

Amen to that!

Even though I didn't want Shamrock to die, this is much better!

[nate]

Well I hope it's a go. If Hines can take on a massive new condo tower project in Detroit, the company can certainly do that here, I'd say.

There is a big difference between a massively subsidized project and something that will have to compete on market terms in one of the most competieve environments in the world.

[fernz]

You're kidding right? Shamrock is dead and THIS is going to go up?

Anyone have any additional info? I'm about ready to do a happy dance.

There is a post somewhere in this forum about Hines having two projects in the works in Downtown, and my understanding is that this one is second in line; so who knows how long it will take for this block to be developed. Also, there is no evidence that "this" is Hines project. Who knows how old this rendering is, it might as well be from a study done before the Shamrock. Hines is usually very good at not revealing what they are working on, and I would be surprised if they authorized their architects to post their building online. However, ANYTHING Hines does will be much better than the Shamrock.

[GovernorAggie]

There is a big difference between a massively subsidized project and something that will have to compete on market terms in one of the most competieve environments in the world.

I don't think the Detroit project massively subsidized--at least not from the government. General Motors owns the land and will basically give Hines the building and share in the profits. If it's successful, then Hines gets to build several more towers on the land owned by GM.

Please tell me that you didn't think it was subsidized simply by the mere mention of Detroit. Private companies did the research, and private companies are behind the work. Last time I cheked, GM wasn't really in the land development business--Hines also did their renovations to the Rennaisance Center to make it into GM's headquarters.

So like I said, if the MARKET is saying to Hines in Detroit that it's feasible to build a rather large condo tower (starting in the $300,000s I think) that is NOT government subsidized, then Houston should be a shoe-in. As a matter of fact, I think there are at least 2-3 condo towers under consideration, approved, or under construction there--not government subsidized.

EDIT: Link to Detroit project--http://detnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070621/BIZ/706210416&theme=Metro-Detroit-Riverfront

Edited June 27, 2007 by GovernorAggie

[nate]

I don't think the Detroit project massively subsidized--at least not from the government. General Motors owns the land and will basically give Hines the building and share in the profits. If it's successful, then Hines gets to build several more towers on the land owned by GM.

Please tell me that you didn't think it was subsidized simply by the mere mention of Detroit. Private companies did the research, and private companies are behind the work. Last time I cheked, GM wasn't really in the land development business--Hines also did their renovations to the Rennaisance Center to make it into GM's headquarters.

So like I said, if the MARKET is saying to Hines in Detroit that it's feasible to build a rather large condo tower (starting in the $300,000s I think) that is NOT government subsidized, then Houston should be a shoe-in. As a matter of fact, I think there are at least 2-3 condo towers under consideration, approved, or under construction there--not government subsidized.

EDIT: Link to Detroit project--http://detnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070621/BIZ/706210416&theme=Metro-Detroit-Riverfront

Thanks for the link.

Please note the following from that article:

Hines will head up the development project, though GM will weigh in on any plans.

The riverfront for years offered little more than a few struggling businesses, dilapidated buildings and acres of land scarred by heavy industry. The area is now designated as a Renaissance Zone, allowing for significant tax breaks.

What is a Renaissance Zone?: http://www.degc.org/main.cfm?location=54 & http://www.ci.detroit.mi.us/renzones/default.htm

The Renaissance Zone program is a collaborative effort between the City of Detroit, the County of Wayne, and the State of Michigan to give tax incentives to residents and businesses. The City of Detroit has designated sixteen areas as Renaissance Zones. This program works to encourage economic stability and development within the eight designated areas of the City. The resident or business must be physically located within one of the sixteen sub-zones and must be qualified.

These tax incentives include a waiver of city income and utility users taxes, most city property taxes, county property taxes, and state income tax or single business tax. The program applies to participants who live, own property, or businesses conducting business within the area and are not delinquent in any local, county, or state taxes.

Since this program involves the exemption of tax and applies to businesses and residents alike, it is crucial for participants to apply and qualify, through the Renaissance Zone Processing Center, for these tax benefits.

Do you still think that this is not a subsidized project? Besides being exempt from most taxes, I would not be suprised if TIF financing were available and don't have time to look into it. Not to mention that GM is giving away land in order to have the small income stream from condo sales. Hines has done a good job reducing their risk on that project. They don't have to buy the land, don't have to pay taxes, maybe TIF financing, their condo buyers will be exempt from taxation, etc. A Houston project would require a larger financial commitment and entail more risk. They will not get TIF financing, they will not get tax breaks (perhaps PAY impact fees), any office space will have to compete with other new construction, any condos will compete with other condos and SFRs all over Houston, etc. These are not comprable projects.

Edited June 27, 2007 by nate

[KinkaidAlum]

Thanks for the link.

Please note the following from that article:

What is a Renaissance Zone?: http://www.degc.org/main.cfm?location=54 & http://www.ci.detroit.mi.us/renzones/default.htm

Do you still think that this is not a subsidized project? Besides being exempt from most taxes, I would not be suprised if TIF financing were available and don't have time to look into it. Not to mention that GM is giving away land in order to have the small income stream from condo sales. Hines has done a good job reducing their risk on that project. They don't have to buy the land, don't have to pay taxes, maybe TIF financing, their condo buyers will be exempt from taxation, etc. A Houston project would require a larger financial commitment and entail more risk. They will not get TIF financing, they will not get tax breaks (perhaps PAY impact fees), any office space will have to compete with other new construction, any condos will compete with other condos and SFRs all over Houston, etc. These are not comprable projects.

Other than the "free" land from GM, how is any of the above different from what downtown Houston offers? You are aware that downtown Houston is part of a TIRR that offers huge tax breaks for development and even goes so far as to wave city taxes for condo buyers aren't you?

[nate]

Other than the "free" land from GM, how is any of the above different from what downtown Houston offers? You are aware that downtown Houston is part of a TIRR that offers huge tax breaks for development and even goes so far as to wave city taxes for condo buyers aren't you?

What is a TIRR?

I know that there are several TIRZ districts that cover portions of downtown. The City Center project might be in the Main Street/Market Square district. But a TIRZ is not a tax break. Property owners in TIRZ districts pay normally increasing taxes. The increase over the baseline in collections is used for public improvements in the district. It is a benefit that I don't think should be given, but it really is not a tax break.

As for waiving city taxes for condo buyers, I have never heard of this. Could you please provide a link? However, I am aware that certain "historic" sites have been given tax abatements. Perhaps some renovated condo buildings downtown recieved these. If they did, they should not have. But, the City Center won't be given a tax abatement.

[Houston19514]

What is a TIRR?

I know that there are several TIRZ districts that cover portions of downtown. The City Center project might be in the Main Street/Market Square district. But a TIRZ is not a tax break. Property owners in TIRZ districts pay normally increasing taxes. The increase over the baseline in collections is used for public improvements in the district. It is a benefit that I don't think should be given, but it really is not a tax break.

As for waiving city taxes for condo buyers, I have never heard of this. Could you please provide a link? However, I am aware that certain "historic" sites have been given tax abatements. Perhaps some renovated condo buildings downtown recieved these. If they did, they should not have. But, the City Center won't be given a tax abatement.

I believe the tax abatements were for rehabs of historical buildings into condos, eg. Bayou Lofts has a tax abatement. I don't think it would apply to any new construction.

[Deut28Thirteen]

Really hope this gets built. I love whats going on in Houston if this gets built like it is in the renderings and with all the other projects in Downtown, DT will be the place to be. Here is some info and a map about the TIRZ areas in Houston.

[TheNiche]

...even goes so far as to wave city taxes for condo buyers aren't you?

Nope, I can confirm that it doesn't work that way. Houston politicians don't much like exposing themselves to the very real political risk entailed by subsidizing new-construction housing that will be sold to and used by the city's most affluent residents...even if it is cool-looking. They'll do it for retail in some cases and will do it for adaptive reuse in most cases, but new residential is a no-go.

[GovernorAggie]

What is a TIRR?

I know that there are several TIRZ districts that cover portions of downtown. The City Center project might be in the Main Street/Market Square district. But a TIRZ is not a tax break. Property owners in TIRZ districts pay normally increasing taxes. The increase over the baseline in collections is used for public improvements in the district. It is a benefit that I don't think should be given, but it really is not a tax break.

As for waiving city taxes for condo buyers, I have never heard of this. Could you please provide a link? However, I am aware that certain "historic" sites have been given tax abatements. Perhaps some renovated condo buildings downtown recieved these. If they did, they should not have. But, the City Center won't be given a tax abatement.

But nothing is stopping the management district from providing tax relief or kicking in some funding. After all, Houston Pavilions is partially subsidized too by the Downtown Management District, the City, and amazingly enough the County(!).

[KinkaidAlum]

But nothing is stopping the management district from providing tax relief or kicking in some funding. After all, Houston Pavilions is partially subsidized too by the Downtown Management District, the City, and amazingly enough the County(!).

AND, the offer of no city taxes does exist to buyers in places like Commerce Towers, Franklin Lofts, Bayou Lofts, Keystone Lofts, etc... Sure, it's all adaptive re-use spaces right now that get that sweet deal but are we absolutely CERTAIN it wouldn't be extended to new construction downtown? I ask because there hasn't been a new construction residential tower in downtown in YEARS. I wouldn't be surprised to see it offered down the line to spur development...

[TheNiche]

...are we absolutely CERTAIN it wouldn't be extended to new construction downtown? I ask because there hasn't been a new construction residential tower in downtown in YEARS. I wouldn't be surprised to see it offered down the line to spur development...

No politician in their right mind would publicly support a subsidy targeted so overtly at rich people. It has been tried many times by different developers, and I've been privy to the matter on a couple of these attempts, but it just hasn't gotten anywhere.

[pm91]

anyone got any updates on this yet?

[GovernorAggie]

FWIW, the old Shamrock leasing trailer is gone.

[Jax]

What about the sign? The sign was still there last Sunday, but I don't remember if I saw the trailer.

[ricco67]

What about the sign? The sign was still there last Sunday, but I don't remember if I saw the trailer.

They're trying to raise money to remove the trailer sign.