Downtown Retail Market

[SMUrban]

Unfortunately your stats don't mean squat to retailers. It is a generally accepted rule of thumb that it takes a base of 10,000 residents in an urban/downtown setting to support general retail. The sad fact is that daytime population is meaningless because the people are there to work and not shop. They will eat and buy stamps and run small errands (tunnel businesses), but they do not make significant purchases such of soft goods (clothes) and certainly do not buy appliances and furniture.

Everyday retail will not exist nor thrive until Houston reaches that magical number of 10,000 residents. These retailers will not (and should not from a business standpoint) take the risk of opening a store in the urban core when they can plop down a cookie cutter store with the stock design, stock sq ft and stock clientele in suburbia and make a nice profit. They only open stores in urban areas such as Chicago and NYC because that is where the population is.

I don't like it, but these are the rules and Houston has to play by them.

[Guest danax]

Office workers don't buy much except lunch. The residential population in DT is miniscule and Midtown's population would probably prefer to shop in Midtown if given the choice, which is steadily gaining retail, so any retailer relying on them would be kind of dumb.

Surrounding DT to the north and east it's still marginal. Dollar stores and pawn shops. What do people buy between 5pm and 10pm anyway? Food, drink, groceries (Randall's) and sundries (CVS) mainly. All of those items are available in most neighborhoods.

The Galleria area is designed for shopping and is surrounded by 100s of 1000s of residents with disposable income. DT isn't. It once was but that was 50 years ago.

Maybe in 10-20 years when North Main and the East End get thick with yuppies, DT re-emerge as a shopper's fun zone.

[Houstonian in Iraq]

Unfortunately your stats don't mean squat to retailers. It is a generally accepted rule of thumb that it takes a base of 10,000 residents in an urban/downtown setting to support general retail. The sad fact is that daytime population is meaningless because the people are there to work and not shop. They will eat and buy stamps and run small errands (tunnel businesses), but they do not make significant purchases such of soft goods (clothes) and certainly do not buy appliances and furniture.

Everyday retail will not exist nor thrive until Houston reaches that magical number of 10,000 residents. These retailers will not (and should not from a business standpoint) take the risk of opening a store in the urban core when they can plop down a cookie cutter store with the stock design, stock sq ft and stock clientele in suburbia and make a nice profit. They only open stores in urban areas such as Chicago and NYC because that is where the population is.

I don't like it, but these are the rules and Houston has to play by them.

Hence the reason everyone is rooting for more residential in DT. Residential in the form of the pavilions or that Fingers project, and Days Inn(renovation) ect. More residents equals to more retail, happier happy hour in downtown, things to do and a thriving city center. The potential is there and we are in the process of seeing this happen

[DragonPhish]

Hence the reason everyone is rooting for more residential in DT. Residential in the form of the pavilions or that Fingers project, and Days Inn(renovation) ect. More residents equals to more retail, happier happy hour in downtown, things to do and a thriving city center. The potential is there and we are in the process of seeing this happen

I have lived downtown for almost seven years and I have seen people come and go. They thought they wanted to be urban but never really understood what it would mean to live downtown. For those of us that also work downtown we walk a lot. It is an almost unheard of concept for some of these people who are accustomed to driving 100 yards to the nearest strip center convenience store. People stay up late here, mostly due to the clubs, so there is a lot of complaining about the noise.

[mainvoice]

Hence the reason everyone is rooting for more residential in DT. Residential in the form of the pavilions or that Fingers project, and Days Inn(renovation) ect. More residents equals to more retail, happier happy hour in downtown, things to do and a thriving city center. The potential is there and we are in the process of seeing this happen

Hmmm...i had heard that the pavilions abandoned the residential portion of the project ?

[mainvoice]

Unfortunately your stats don't mean squat to retailers. It is a generally accepted rule of thumb that it takes a base of 10,000 residents in an urban/downtown setting to support general retail. The sad fact is that daytime population is meaningless because the people are there to work and not shop. They will eat and buy stamps and run small errands (tunnel businesses), but they do not make significant purchases such of soft goods (clothes) and certainly do not buy appliances and furniture.

Everyday retail will not exist nor thrive until Houston reaches that magical number of 10,000 residents. These retailers will not (and should not from a business standpoint) take the risk of opening a store in the urban core when they can plop down a cookie cutter store with the stock design, stock sq ft and stock clientele in suburbia and make a nice profit. They only open stores in urban areas such as Chicago and NYC because that is where the population is.

I don't like it, but these are the rules and Houston has to play by them.

If i am understanding what you said then you basically believe that downtown ALREADY has a proportionate amount of retail for the amount of residence it does have, and that Houston Pavilions and Sakowitz are a bad idea right now, pre-mature, and should probably go to suburbia ? I think it doesn't have enough retail for the amount of res. it has. If what you are saying is correct I am just wondering how there are 150- 200 clubs and restaurants already in existance with more opening. I also think that there are more than just stamp stores in the tunnels and I consider the The Park basically an extension of the tunnels that kind of brings the tunnel dwellers to the surface without going outside...I guess that means that the hotels aren't a good idea downtown either, aren't they trying to cater to just tourists visiting the area ? What is compeling these types to come to Houston as well ?

[TheNiche]

If i am understanding what you said then you basically believe that downtown ALREADY has a proportionate amount of retail for the amount of residence it does have, and that Houston Pavilions and Sakowitz are a bad idea right now, pre-mature, and should probably go to suburbia ? I think it doesn't have enough retail for the amount of res. it has. If what you are saying is correct I am just wondering how there are 150- 200 clubs and restaurants already in existance with more opening. I also think that there are more than just stamp stores in the tunnels and I consider the The Park basically an extension of the tunnels that kind of brings the tunnel dwellers to the surface without going outside...I guess that means that the hotels aren't a good idea downtown either, aren't they trying to cater to just tourists visiting the area ? What is compeling these types to come to Houston as well ?

There is a big difference between convenience retail and destination retail. Pavilions is a destination. The typical in-line retailer is most frequently not.

Clubs most typically are not counted as part of retail...or are at least kind of a hybrid...because their business models are so unique.

Hotels are certainly not the same thing as retail and are absolutely not driven by the same factors as retail. A Although they do bolster the numbers in favor of an argument for retail, tourists don't typically go to a grocery store and don't have the same spending patterns. They tend to generate restaurant demand in particular. There is also a difference in spending patterns between those that visit for business and for pleasure.

When you break demographics down into four groups, 1) office workers, 2) residents, 3) business travelers, and 4) pleasure travelers, there's just not enough overlap in spending patterns to justify a lot of things that would be nice to have downtown.

[Subdude]

Really. I have not heard about an office supply store downtown that failed recently ?

I believe the one across from the Hyatt on Louisiana recently closed. It was on the ground floor of a parking garage.

I guess that means that the hotels aren't a good idea downtown either, aren't they trying to cater to just tourists visiting the area ?

The large number of new hotels that opened was because of tax incentives offered by the city. The idea was to build up a sufficient room inventory to support large conventions at the expanded GRB. Without the tax incentive, I doubt most of the hotel development would have occurred.

The city is also offering incentives to bring retail downtown. These are (supposedly) being used to bring retailers into the old Sakowitz building on Main, although nothing has happened yet.

mmm...i had heard that the pavilions abandoned the residential portion of the project ?

Haven't heard that, but I doubt anyone would be shocked if it were true.

[RedScare]

There are financial incentives in place for the Pavillions. There are also incentives for the Saks building. However, since Saks probably would not make it on its own, it will not begin until the Pavillions does. There is also an incentive for more retail in the ground floor of the parking garage east of Saks, north of the Pavillions. Again, Pavillions is the lynchpin in this project moving forward.

There is plenty of retail in Downtown. The complaints are that it is not the "right kind" of retail. As mentioned before, most neighborhood retail requires a neighborhood. Downtown has just shy of 4,000 residents, where most experts see 10,000 as the threshold. The news of the Dallas grocery losing $1.2 million in its first year is applicable here. I know it is not popular on this forum to consider the economics of business and buildings, but investors do not become wealthy by ignoring reality. Pavillions, if done correctly, will bring in shoppers due to its uniqueness. This will allow niche retailers to grow around it. The sight of pedestrians and activity around it may spur more residential construction. But, all of that takes time.

Edited June 28, 2006 by RedScare

[Subdude]

Downtown has just shy of 4,000 residents, where most experts see 10,000 as the threshold.

And of those residents, a large proportion are either incarcerated or live in places like DeGeorge SRO, and aren't going to contribute to any demand for retail.

[TheNiche]

And of those residents, a large proportion are either incarcerated or live in places like DeGeorge SRO, and aren't going to contribute to any demand for retail.

Nope, the 4,000 count excludes those "residents" in group quarters. I'm not quite sure what DeGeorge SRO is, though.

[Subdude]

Nope, the 4,000 count excludes those "residents" in group quarters. I'm not quite sure what DeGeorge SRO is, though.

I stand corrected then. I had read recently that a high proportion of downtown "residents" were in orange jumpsuits, but I'm afraid I don't have the source. SRO is "Single Room Occupancy", ie subsidized housing for people who would otherwise be homeless.

On a related point, when the downtown district publishes the number of residential units downtown, they include places like the DeGeorge and the YMCA. I wrote them to point out that it was a bit misleading, and they emailed back to say it was a mistake. They never adjusted the definition however.

[RedScare]

DeGeorge is included. Jail is not. Census figures showing Downtown population at 12,000 to 14,000 do include the "institutional" population, though.

[wendyps]

Office workers don't buy much except lunch.

I work right next to Foley's and I can tell you that not a day goes by where I don't see lots and lots of Foley bags...I think more retail would work if there were more of a selection...people wouldn't have to hurry home to find a gift, they could do it at lunch or in the evenings to avoid rush hour. Just my opinion though, I've no facts...

[Metropolitantexan]

Greetings all....

.....maybe we can sum up this seemingly predictable thread in two words THE CULTURE! Yes! yes, that's it, let us somehow come forth and change "the culture" of the way we houstonians uproach this new and rapidly changing urban core, aka central business district (CBD) or even otherwise known as DOWNTOWN HOUSTON.....

WE ARE ALL ACCUSTOMED TO THE POLITICS OF THE FINANCIAL INCENTIVES......now are'nt we? For are'nt we the ones who vote for the city councilmembers/mayor that introduce this form of tax initiatives/innovations? I for one have....

MAINVOICE.....just what is it that you are really trying to get out of your system? For it certainly seems that you are just "chomping at the bit" in regards to this all too familiar/peculiar thread -- you know that I love you good pal, but as well traveled as you certainly seem.....surely you are smarter than this right? We Houstonians are surely not the only ones that are going through this new mode of urbanization, for this is happening all over the country. But just as REDSCARE has indicated earlier..."it takes time" as well as big time patience.

HOUSTON, has within it's very storied past/history, a verifiable nature of being one of the most ultra conservative cities that is known to modern man. Whether we like if or not, we are all the sad relatives of the "good ol boy system" from way back in a day. YES! We have indeed cleaned things up a bit -- but the very remnants remain........

CULTURE CLASH, is indeed happening all over this great city of ours.......we see it in the new urbanization of UPTOWN HOUSTON, we are seeing it in the ever evolving and rapidly growing MEDICAL CENTER, we are recognizing it in the new concepts/innovations involving the new designs regarding MIDTOWN.......for the baby boomers are moving back into the urban core -- as well as the new influx of citizens that are rapidly filling up our great city from all corners of the globe.......FOR ONCE THE CULTURE BEGINS TO CHANGE TOWARDS A MORE PROGRESSIVE NATURE INVOLVING THE QUALITY OF LIFE ISSUES REGARDING THE CBD -- then so will the attitude toward future investment. Houston simply has to let the world know that we are "READY TO SWING A LITTLE"..........for whether we care to admit this or not -- Dallas has been doing this for decades......and that is why they seem to be so innovative, as well as progressive within their approach to getting things done, as well as staying the course.

DETERMINATION is the key, for we are going to have to be determined to be patient, civilized, as well as sophisticated within our approach......THE NEW DOWNTOWN HOUSTON IS GOING TO HAPPEN! For it is almost like a child awaiting christmas morning.......you know, "the visions of sugarplums routine" -- just keep in mind that the rapid change of a city's culture from one that has for decades moved at the ultra conservative pace of a snail -- to one that is moving and gleaming with a hip-hop rhythm -- is never going to be an easy asset toward mankind -- but an asset nevertheless.......

Metropolitantexan

Edited June 28, 2006 by Metropolitantexan

[GovernorAggie]

Hmmm...i had heard that the pavilions abandoned the residential portion of the project ?

I actually think it was the hotel component that was abandoned.

[Houstonian in Iraq]

I think more retail would work if there were more of a selection...people wouldn't have to hurry home to find a gift, they could do it at lunch or in the evenings to avoid rush hour. Just my opinion though, I've no facts...

I agree, I find myself going clear across town to shop sometimes. If downtown had more of what I was looking for at the time I would go there even if I don't work or live in DT(that's just me....and some people I know)

Some people had brought up that DT was dead even during the day in the middle of the week. When I went walking around while I was there I couldn't believe how many people were walking around and at the train stations. If I had my camera I would of taken a picture to post. It was more than one day too.

[TheNiche]

Greetings all....

For some reason, your style of communication reminds me of David Crossley or Stephen Kleinberg. Can't put my finger on which one, though...

[mainvoice]

Greetings all....

.....maybe we can sum up this seemingly predictable thread in two words THE CULTURE! Yes! yes, that's it, let us somehow come forth and change "the culture" of the way we houstonians uproach this new and rapidly changing urban core, aka central business district (CBD) or even otherwise known as DOWNTOWN HOUSTON.....

WE ARE ALL ACCUSTOMED TO THE POLITICS OF THE FINANCIAL INCENTIVES......now are'nt we? For are'nt we the ones who vote for the city councilmembers/mayor that introduce this form of tax initiatives/innovations? I for one have....

MAINVOICE.....just what is it that you are really trying to get out of your system? For it certainly seems that you are just "chomping at the bit" in regards to this all too familiar/peculiar thread -- you know that I love you good pal, but as well traveled as you certainly seem.....surely you are smarter than this right? We Houstonians are surely not the only ones that are going through this new mode of urbanization, for this is happening all over the country. But just as REDSCARE has indicated earlier..."it takes time" as well as big time patience.

HOUSTON, has within it's very storied past/history, a verifiable nature of being one of the most ultra conservative cities that is known to modern man. Whether we like if or not, we are all the sad relatives of the "good ol boy system" from way back in a day. YES! We have indeed cleaned things up a bit -- but the very remnants remain........

CULTURE CLASH, is indeed happening all over this great city of ours.......we see it in the new urbanization of UPTOWN HOUSTON, we are seeing it in the ever evolving and rapidly growing MEDICAL CENTER, we are recognizing it in the new concepts/innovations involving the new designs regarding MIDTOWN.......for the baby boomers are moving back into the urban core -- as well as the new influx of citizens that are rapidly filling up our great city from all corners of the globe.......FOR ONCE THE CULTURE BEGINS TO CHANGE TOWARDS A MORE PROGRESSIVE NATURE INVOLVING THE QUALITY OF LIFE ISSUES REGARDING THE CBD -- then so will the attitude toward future investment. Houston simply has to let the world know that we are "READY TO SWING A LITTLE"..........for whether we care to admit this or not -- Dallas has been doing this for decades......and that is why they seem to be so innovative, as well as progressive within their approach to getting things done, as well as staying the course.

DETERMINATION is the key, for we are going to have to be determined to be patient, civilized, as well as sophisticated within our approach......THE NEW DOWNTOWN HOUSTON IS GOING TO HAPPEN! For it is almost like a child awaiting christmas morning.......you know, "the visions of sugarplums routine" -- just keep in mind that the rapid change of a city's culture from one that has for decades moved at the ultra conservative pace of a snail -- to one that is moving and gleaming with a hip-hop rhythm -- is never going to be an easy asset toward mankind -- but an asset nevertheless.......

Metropolitantexan

I like NOW. HP likes NOW. Patience is gold except on hold...Surely there are more who believe in downtown NOW. It's easy to be the last to jump in. I guess it's harder to be a market leader than a market follower... even though we can all agree time is on downtowns side. Right ?

[TheNiche]

I like NOW. HP likes NOW. Patience is gold except on hold...Surely there are more who believe in downtown NOW. It's easy to be the last to jump in. I guess it's harder to be a market leader than a market follower... even though we can all agree time is on downtowns side. Right ?

Now is better than later, sure...but what are you getting at?

[mainvoice]

I think that understanding what brings the HP's, and Sakowitz to downtown and more retailers at this time is interesting . Metropolitantexan says that we are not the only city going through this urbanization, and to be patient. Are there lots of other CBD's that are amongst the top 10 largest that have a CBD that is deader than a doornail in terms of shopping, and things to do between 5pm-10pm? I don't think that a ghost town CBD in the 4th largest city is a result of urbanization. I think it seems like there are a lot of us who would like to spend the day shopping downtown and walking up and down the sidewalks people watching, and just having something fun to do. Shelfing the topic again until another lifetime is easy if you have enough patience like some, but I dig what's going on and would like to see more done sooner with what downtown has to offer today.

[mainvoice]

What's "pi" ?

[The Great Hizzy!]

=3.14

::Takes small bow::

[Htowngirl]

I'm assuming it's going to be a club similar to 6th degrees, however, can't say...but it's definitely going to be named "pi"

The guy who bought it paid for the whole bar - furnishings & all, so it will probably look very similar. I also heard that not only will "Pi" be the name, but it will be the theme - complete with drink specials that cost $3.14 - which I don't really get, because I don't think I would be very happy walking around with a pocket full of change after buying a couple drinks (tips including pennies is rude, right?), but whatevs... it's all hearsay till the bar opens!

[TheNiche]

I think that understanding what brings the HP's, and Sakowitz to downtown and more retailers at this time is interesting . Metropolitantexan says that we are not the only city going through this urbanization, and to be patient. Are there lots of other CBD's that are amongst the top 10 largest that have a CBD that is deader than a doornail in terms of shopping, and things to do between 5pm-10pm? I don't think that a ghost town CBD in the 4th largest city is a result of urbanization. I think it seems like there are a lot of us who would like to spend the day shopping downtown and walking up and down the sidewalks people watching, and just having something fun to do. Shelfing the topic again until another lifetime is easy if you have enough patience like some, but I dig what's going on and would like to see more done sooner with what downtown has to offer today.

Houston, Dallas, and Denver come to mind. Never been there, but I think I've also heard Atlanta and LA mentioned in this context.

[heights_yankee]

I work right next to Foley's and I can tell you that not a day goes by where I don't see lots and lots of Foley bags...I think more retail would work if there were more of a selection...people wouldn't have to hurry home to find a gift, they could do it at lunch or in the evenings to avoid rush hour. Just my opinion though, I've no facts...

I can say that I would definitely shop downtown over Rice or the Galleria if more was available. For people who live Heights and midtown, going to the other shopping districts can be such a pain. Traffic is bad enough and then add parking in Rice Village or Highland Village.

We got married at a hotel downtown and most of our out of town friends and family stayed at that location. All my east coast friends were so perplexed by the fact that there was nothing for them to do Sat during the day without going all the way across town. Most restaurants weren't even open. They ended up at Cabo, poor things!

[KinkaidAlum]

US cities I have been to that I loved their downtown areas...

Seattle, Portland, San Fran (not so much the Financial District but all around it), San Diego, Denver, San Antonio, New Orleans, Chicago, NYC (Manhattan), Boston, DC, Philly, Baltimore and Portland, Maine.

US cities that I have been to that had decent downtowns...

Los Angeles, Vegas (gotta love the old time gambling scene), Minneapolis, Fort Worth, Austin, Indianapolis, Cincinnati, Miami, Atlanta, Pittsburgh, Rochester, and Providence.

US cities that I have been to that appeared DEAD downtown...

Milwaukee, Phoenix, Tucson, Dallas, Cleveland, Tampa, Buffalo, Raleigh, and Hartford.

I find Houston to be somewhere between dead and decent. It helps if there's an event going on like I-Fest or Art Car or Cinco de Mayo but on a weekend in which there is no festival and the Astros are on the road, downtown can be quite quiet.

[MidtownCoog]

My lunch time hobby is strolling through Foley's. It is totally packed during lunch. I have not been there on a Saturday in 25 years.

We used to hit the Park Shops on Saturday when they still had Brooks Bros.

I would come downtown and shop on the weekends. It's a lot closer for me than all the other shopping in the city.

Maybe then Metro could use the HOVs to service downown on the weekends on a limited basis.

[mainvoice]

I actually think it was the hotel component that was abandoned.

Thanks for the info. When do you think more specifics will be mentioned about HP's residential and office dev. ? This might be a good location for Duke E.'s new HQ in todays paper.

[mainvoice]

=3.14

::Takes small bow::

Very catchy....what kind of pie ?