Lakewood Church At 3700 Southwest Fwy.

[crunchtastic]

Whazzup with all the being offended and charges of sarcasm? I was simply celebrating the karmic history of the building.

[Fringe]

My problem with it is they don't have to pay taxes because they are a church.  Even though Joel is raking it in.  Yet they receive city services.  That's a problem I have with most any church but especially mega churches.  

Sorry If I offended any one.  It was not on purpose. 

[AtticaFlinch]

My problem with it is they don't have to pay taxes because they are a church. Even though Joel is raking it in. Yet they receive city services. That's a problem I have with most any church but especially mega churches.

Sorry If I offended any one. It was not on purpose.

I'm offended you didn't offend me on purpose. Unintended offenses are the most offensive, don't you think? Kinda like when a defensive tackle makes an interception and then a cornerback has to block for him?

[livincinco]

A good deal would have been Lakewood paying market value for the property. Didn't HISD get 38Mil for a smaller parcel of land nearby? A parcel that is now generating property taxes for the city?

I think that you also need to consider the money that Lakewood has already invested in the property; the likelihood that any other purchaser would have likely required a demo of the building and rebuild, and, regardless of whether we approve of mega-churches are not, that it does drive a significant amount of traffic to the area. I would be surprised if there isn't positive economic impact in the area that's increasing in additional tax revenue.

[Fringe]

I'm offended you didn't offend me on purpose. Unintended offenses are the most offensive, don't you think? Kinda like when a defensive tackle makes an interception and then a cornerback has to block for him?

 I was apologizing to everyone but you Attica. 

[sevfiv]

City Council delayed it..

http://blogs.chron.com/primeproperty/2010/03/post_32.html

[GovernorAggie]

A good deal would have been Lakewood paying market value for the property. Didn't HISD get 38Mil for a smaller parcel of land nearby? A parcel that is now generating property taxes for the city?

Full disclosure--I attend Lakewood and have since 2003. That being said--

I think you're disregarding what looks to be that the city will keep the 22 years balance of the $11 million lease in addition to getting the $7.5 million, which apparently was the value set by a city appraisal, not a Lakewood appraisal. Additionally, let's not forget that the whole thing came up because the city listed Compaq Center and something like 16 or so other properties for sale. Lakewood is the existing tenant but we've seen nothing about anything in their lease giving them the first right of refusal in the event of a sale. In fact, when the idea of the sale came up, there was word that another owner would buy the church from the city and Lakewood's response was that, "we have a lease that has to be honored by whoever is the new owner." When I rented a duplex I thought of approaching my landlord about selling outright because I thought it would be a good investment, so I (and many others) can understand Lakewood throwing its hat in the ring to be a potential owner. And if the city's asking price is $7.5 million, then I don't see how that's Lakewood's fault.

FWIW, before I attended Lakewood I was at another church in another state with 1200 people, one with 300 people, and one with about 20 people. There were things to contribute and get in all cases. They all have their value.

[Gary]

Do you really think sarcasm directed toward a con-artist like Joel Osteen is an insult to religion in general? Joel Osteen and those of his ilk is what should offend you.

Osteen and his character (or lack thereof) have nothing to do with my comment... The fact is that anything of a Christian nature whether it be political, religious, etc is met with smart A#$, and insulting comments all the time on HAIF, regardless of subject matter. I'm sick and tired of anti religious biggots like Attica and his "ILK" poisening this site, and quite frankly, would bet a thousand bucks that Mr Finch wouldn't run his mouth like he does face to face. If you would like to discuss some of these things in person, It's very easy to find me and the venues I play around town via my web site Mr Finch (see link below). No, I'm not threatening you, but would love to have a face to face chat to maybe explain to you the error of your ways.

I'm no holy roller boys, but I do have my limits with classless wimps that constantly run their mouths about those of us who believe in God (or might be Republican). There are ways to discuss religion without throwing the baby out with the bath water. It's called having respect for each other, something that a few of you should consider. True that this thread is more benign than other religious ones, but it's still making HUGE assumptions about a man that happens to have a big church. What the hell do you know about him and his relationship to God? Maybe he's changing peoples lives for the postive. Of course according to Mr Finch, he's a moron since he's a Republican, which in turn probably means that many in his church must be as well, so nevermind. And No Mr Finch, I am not confusing religion and politics. Maybe you could read the first few posts of the thread before making that comment.

Let me be clear that I am not a John Osteen fan and dissagree with quite a few things, however, I have enough respect for him not to make such broad brushed statements as you have above.

Obviously, most will think I'm blowing this out of proportion and I probably am for this thread in particular, but this is the straw for me. I'm also pretty sure that at this point, this post will either be edited or taken down altogether. In the past I would have been concerned, but no more.

Wayne if you'll still have me after this I'll still lurk, but my posting days at HAIF are over.

Edited March 25, 2010 by Gary

[AtticaFlinch]

Osteen and his character (or lack thereof) have nothing to do with my comment... The fact is that anything of a Christian nature whether it be political, religious, etc is met with smart A#$, and insulting comments all the time on HAIF, regardless of subject matter. I'm sick and tired of anti religious biggots like Attica and his "ILK" poisening this site, and quite frankly, would bet a thousand bucks that Mr Finch wouldn't run his mouth like he does face to face. If you would like to discuss some of these things in person, It's very easy to find me and the venues I play around town via my web site Mr Finch (see link below). No, I'm not threatening you, but would love to have a face to face chat to maybe explain to you the error of your ways.

I'm no holy roller boys, but I do have my limits with classless wimps that constantly run their mouths about those of us who believe in God (or might be Republican). There are ways to discuss religion without throwing the baby out with the bath water. It's called having respect for each other, something that a few of you should consider. True that this thread is more benign than other religious ones, but it's still making HUGE assumptions about a man that happens to have a big church. What the hell do you know about him and his relationship to God? Maybe he's changing peoples lives for the postive. Of course according to Mr Finch, he's a moron since he's a Republican, which in turn probably means that many in his church must be as well, so nevermind. And No Mr Finch, I am not confusing religion and politics. Maybe you could read the first few posts of the thread before making that comment.

Let me be clear that I am not a John Osteen fan and dissagree with quite a few things, however, I have enough respect for him not to make such broad brushed statements as you have above.

Obviously, most will think I'm blowing this out of proportion and I probably am for this thread in particular, but this is the straw for me. I'm also pretty sure that at this point, this post will either be edited or taken down altogether. In the past I would have been concerned, but no more.

Wayne if you'll still have me after this I'll still lurk, but my posting days at HAIF are over.

Way to make this personal, guy.

First, it's Flinch, not Finch. You're confusing me with my namesake Atticus Finch. While I may share many of his values, I cannot claim to have anywhere near the fortitude demonstrated by Harper Lee's character. Second, we often disagree, that's for sure. And while I crack jokes about religion and politics, I'm respectful of other people's religious beliefs. However, I don't respect intolerance and I don't respect violence in the name of God, any god. In fact, I'd like you to point out the specific comment that I wrote that left your religious sensibilities all asunder. Why don't you go through my entire post history and point them out? If you're offended because I abhor violence in religion, which may very well be the case considering your particular invitation to attend your concert (I guess you've got to do what you can to fill a seat for a prog rock concert these days), then I can't reason with you anyhow. Third, I'm confident my beliefs wouldn't fade from view simply because I'd have to speak to someone face-to-face. It's obvious you don't know me if you'd think that. And all that aside, threats of violence, for whatever reason, don't sit well with me. If you think I'm going to crumple like a fading violet simply because you threatened to fight me (what are you, in the fifth grade? You gonna make me eat a knuckle sandwich?) then you're sadly mistaken. Of course, I may take you up on the offer someday. I might just want to hear the poor man's Steve Perry fronting the poor man's Dream Theatre someday. When that day comes, I'll make sure my presence is known, no worries. It shouldn't be difficult to stand out in a crowd of ten people.

Also, I may be classless, but I'm no wimp. I guarantee your personal assurance that a fight with me being a good idea would fade when you met me.

Funny thing is Gary, I think it's you and your "ILK" who poison this site. I think you poison the entire idea of rational debate. The difference between you and me is I at least participate in the debate rather than sit around wringing my hands and crying that people disagree with me. Most of your post history is you complaining about how the site's no longer as good as it used to be, which is a common lament about all sorts of things for conservatives. Stop moaning and whining, and take a second and remove the log from your own eye before you try to remove the speck from mine.

[Fringe]

Full disclosure--I attend Lakewood and have since 2003.  That being said--

I think you're disregarding what looks to be that the city will keep the 22 years balance of the $11 million lease in addition to getting the $7.5 million, which apparently was the value set by a city appraisal, not a Lakewood appraisal. 

If that's the case then it's not such a bad deal. 

[west20th]

Full disclosure--I attend Lakewood and have since 2003. That being said--

I think you're disregarding what looks to be that the city will keep the 22 years balance of the $11 million lease in addition to getting the $7.5 million, which apparently was the value set by a city appraisal, not a Lakewood appraisal. Additionally, let's not forget that the whole thing came up because the city listed Compaq Center and something like 16 or so other properties for sale. Lakewood is the existing tenant but we've seen nothing about anything in their lease giving them the first right of refusal in the event of a sale. In fact, when the idea of the sale came up, there was word that another owner would buy the church from the city and Lakewood's response was that, "we have a lease that has to be honored by whoever is the new owner." When I rented a duplex I thought of approaching my landlord about selling outright because I thought it would be a good investment, so I (and many others) can understand Lakewood throwing its hat in the ring to be a potential owner. And if the city's asking price is $7.5 million, then I don't see how that's Lakewood's fault.

FWIW, before I attended Lakewood I was at another church in another state with 1200 people, one with 300 people, and one with about 20 people. There were things to contribute and get in all cases. They all have their value.

Guess the deal makes more sense when fully explained. I suppose my dislike of churches in general (not just Lakewood) not paying property taxes colored my opinion on this particular deal.

[LTAWACS]

How could you dissapoint? Aside from a certain other member, your the poster child of religious offense here.

Edit: Still can't see my posts when replying.

Looks like you blocked yourself again.

[Subdude]

Let's drop the one-on-one sidebar discussion here and keep it on topic.

[porTENT]

It seems to me that the city would get a better deal to offer them the 30 year extension and then in 2060 to sell. By then the building will have outlived it's former life and there is no guarantee that Lakewood will even be an operating church or moved on by then. It is likely that by 2060 that the site will be primed for redevelopment. The City is either in dire straits now or there is some kind of sweet heart deal going on under the table.

Edited March 25, 2010 by porTENT

[Hanuman]

Let's drop the one-on-one sidebar discussion here and keep it on topic.

Here! Here! Sub, and thank you for refereeing. I participate in these forums for intelligent debate, and to make myself a better thinker & person, based on the challenges, theories, and yes, provocations presented by others. May I paraphrase a movie line for a point? ... " This forum makes me want to be a better man" ...Lol!

* Back on topic: I think this is a great deal for all. There is multi-faceted heavy investment on both sides. Lakewood's congregation has come a long way to be where it is today with solid devotion, and work. I'm speaking of the Osteen's hard work too - not in a religeous context, but business, and hard work - determination, etc. I believe that from the investment standpoint, they deserve what they have worked for. On the side of the City of Houston, again, from the business aspect, the tax payers have gotten their return.

Gary, what's your take on my post? ...Uh... without the sword and shield please...Lol!

[Witch King]

My problem with it is they don't have to pay taxes because they are a church. Even though Joel is raking it in. Yet they receive city services. That's a problem I have with most any church but especially mega churches.

Give your love to God, but give your (TAX EXEMPT) money to me!

Proud to be Pagan!

Witch King

[barracuda]

I think that you also need to consider the money that Lakewood has already invested in the property;

Money that any other business would have paid in taxes.

[sevfiv]

City Council this morning approved the sale of the former Compaq Center to Lakewood Church for $7.5 million.

The vote was 13 to 2, with Councilmen Oliver Pennington and Stephen Costello opposed.

Mayor Annise Parker proposed the sale two weeks ago, saying the money could help close a projected budget shortfall of $11.9 million this fiscal year and as much as $100 million next year.

Some council members expressed skepticism about the deal last week, questioning whether the 606,000-square-foot building was worth more. Their concerns appeared to have been allayed this morning.

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/metropolitan/6937849.html

[skwatra]

The article did not mention the $11M balance to be paid by Lakewood that GovernerAggie mentioned...

Is there any evidence of that?

[jgriff]

The article did not mention the $11M balance to be paid by Lakewood that GovernerAggie mentioned...

Is there any evidence of that?

I think that has already been paid. From what I've heard Lakewood had a 30 year pre-paid lease on the building.

It seems to me that Lakewood has done Houston a huge favor taking over this building and giving the city a little money when it needs it. It could have easily wound up less then worthless like the Astrodome.

[skwatra]

thanks, that makes sense.

[Lakewood] will pay $11.8 million in rent in advance for the first 30 years.

NYTimes article from 2004

[jgriff]

thanks, that makes sense.

NYTimes article from 2004

After reading the article it seems I may have been wrong about a potential for it to end up like the Astrodome. Crescent Real Estate wanted to buy it and redevelop the site so the building must not have been more expensive to tear down than the property was worth. The article says that Lakewood won for purely economic reasons though. They paid as much to rent the facility for 30 years as the building was worth. In the end the city basically sold Lakewood the building twice.

[Highrise Tower]

Discussing this in two threads.

Was there really a mass shooting at Lakewood? Oh man.  Can I give something to bring the dead back to life?

[hbg.50]

58 minutes ago, Highrise Tower said:

Discussing this in two threads.

Was there really a mass shooting at Lakewood? Oh man.  Can I give something to bring the dead back to life?

You should be banned from this website for your disgusting comment.   

[Highrise Tower]

7 minutes ago, steve1363 said:

You should be banned from this website for your disgusting comment.   

What is this about? Sending you a direct message.