Ellington Field Joint Reserve Base

[TheNiche]

I was looking at an aerial map of the Clear Lake area earlier today. Big open space to its north within which EFD operates. I recall having heard that the F-16 squadron there had been realigned by BRAC, so what is EFD's role as part of the Houston Airport System?

Is it worth the cost, or should we close it, let Katy take the market share, and find developers to build up everything around EFD and the southeast segment of the Beltway into master-planned communities? Or alternatively, could it become a major regional park on the same scale as Memorial Park?

[RedScare]

Of course it has a future. Shelly Sekula Gibbs is working on it as we speak...at least, when she is not beung mean to Tom Delay's staff.

[TheNiche]

Of course it has a future. Shelly Sekula Gibbs is working on it as we speak...at least, when she is not beung mean to Tom Delay's staff.

I'm sure that you've just made a good solid joke (or something), but it's gone over my head. Did I miss an important article? I hadn't heard anything about EFD for a while.

[RedScare]

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/front/4344338.html

[TheNiche]

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/front/4344338.html

Ah, I see. I don't typically follow allegations of corruption in Washington D.C. or locally.

It would consume me.

But the question stands. What to do with EFD?

[nmainguy]

Of course it has a future. Shelly Sekula Gibbs is working on it as we speak...at least, when she is not beung mean to Tom Delay's staff.

She better hurry up. She only has about 27 minutes left in her term.

[MidtownCoog]

Of course it does. Are you that out of touch?

NASA still uses it. Space Station parts fly out of it, the FAA has the FSDO, there is General Avaition and UPS loves it.

Get off the Web!

[TheNiche]

NASA still uses it. Space Station parts fly out of it, the FAA has the FSDO, there is General Avaition and UPS loves it.

Is that all? Can't space station parts fly out of Hobby? Can't the FAA relocate to either Hobby or an office park somewhere if they don't actually have flight needs? UPS could relocate to IAH, which is set up to handle high volumes of air cargo. My understanding is that there's also a coast guard unit there that does rescue operations, but Scholes Field would seem more suitable.

Only general aviation would seem to suffer by any substantial measure, but aren't there less valuable tracts of land that they could operate an airport from? Like the new airport in Katy, for instance?

[MidtownCoog]

The FSDO left Hobby in 1995. FYI - FSDO - Fligt Standars District Office. The need an airport.

UPS saves money and time by not driving 40 miles to IAH.

Katy is Katy. Who cares about Katy?

This is Houston.

[TheNiche]

The FSDO left Hobby in 1995. FYI - FSDO - Fligt Standars District Office. The need an airport.

UPS saves money and time by not driving 40 miles to IAH.

Katy is Katy. Who cares about Katy?

This is Houston.

OK, that's all fine and dandy. But the City of Houston owns and operates EFD. Is it a money-maker or a money-loser for the City? The Houston Airport System as a whole loses $30-something-million per year...I can't tell how Ellington does because the accounting documents are not sufficiently detailed...but I certainly wouldn't be surprised if it were running a deficit. And the surplus benefits from UPS? Are they sufficient to cover our costs? Why should we be paying for UPS's benefit? And what is so special about EFD to the FSDO? Wouldn't a smaller airport in the region work for them just as well? Sugar Land perhaps, if they need a long airstrip?

If EFD were converted to a master-planned community, not only would the City make a lot of money from sale of the land, but it'd then reap lots of new tax revenue. Housing probably is the higher and better use fo the site, given its location. And given that there's so much acreage, such a development could be designed with an element of exclusivity that isn't typical of close-in subdivisions; it'd command some hefty price premiums. So the opportunity cost is pretty high. How do you justify it?

[MidtownCoog]

Do you actually think UPS, NASA and FAA get free rent? Same with Cliff Hyde's Flight School and all the private hangars. They pay to be there.

And where would the Astronauts train in their T-38s?

And FWIW the TX National Guard is moving from OST to EFD.

EFD is here to stay.

Not to mention the history (WWI training). But in typical Houston fashion you'd like to get rid of it.

[TheNiche]

Do you actually think UPS, NASA and FAA get free rent? Same with Cliff Hyde's Flight School and all the private hangars. They pay to be there.

And where would the Astronauts train in their T-38s?

And FWIW the TX National Guard is moving from OST to EFD.

EFD is here to stay.

Not to mention the history (WWI training). But in typical Houston fashion you'd like to get rid of it.

OK, see this is the kind of thing I was trying to get at. Remember my first question was "what is EFD's role as part of the Houston Airport System?" I wanted details, not a list of users.

But even then, general aviation can locate elsewhere, T-38's can operate out of other airports, and the national guard unit could probably do just as well in a run-of-the-mill industrial park. And I know that the City receives landing/takeoff fees and leases facilities, hangars, and land, but it does that at the other two airports and still seems to lose a lot of money. I'll shut up if you can show me the numbers, though. I'd really like it if you could find something...I've searched, but to no avail.

[MidtownCoog]

LOL. The NASA Astronatus can operate out of Sugar Land!

You so silly!

Also, many part of the ISS fly in the Guppy out of EFD.

Shoud we schlep ISS parts up I-45 so they can get into a wreck?

[TheNiche]

LOL. The NASA Astronatus can operate out of Sugar Land!

You so silly!

Hobby, Scholes, or La Porte? How much runway does a T-38 need?

Also, many part of the ISS fly in the Guppy out of EFD.

Shoud we schlep ISS parts up I-45 so they can get into a wreck?

And we should schlep them along Highway 3 instead?

I'm sure that when they're schlepped, they are thoroughly protected. One would hope, anyway.

[MidtownCoog]

Funny you ask. When I was in flight school a T-38 landed at T41 (La Porte). They need 4,000+ depending on the density altitude, etc.

He had to be driven back to EFD and I heard he lost his wings.

Not to mention Air Force One only lands at EFD for security reasons. And Marine One takes the President from EFD to his Houtson destination.

And we should schlep them along Highway 3 instead?

No. They build them on the backside of EFD. No driving required.

Methinks you don't fly out of EFD much like I do.

[dalparadise]

Whatever you think, Hobby is not the answer. Hobby is already borderline dangerous, since the city has encroached around it. The expanded terminal and higher volume of operations will only exacerbate this condition. Even Sugar Land has a longer runway.

That situation alone seems to support the need for EFD. I think you'll start to see more of the corporate jets based at Hobby getting squeezed out, too. Hobby traffic is getting heavier and heavier. GA flights -- especially private jets -- will get tired of the delays and dangers of the high-speed, steep descent approaches to HOU and the extended time now required in the pattern, which will make EFD more attractive.

Short answer -- yes, I think it has a nice future.

[TheNiche]

Funny you ask. When I was in flight school a T-38 landed at T41 (La Porte). They need 4,000+ depending on the density altitude, etc.

He had to be driven back to EFD and I heard he lost his wings.

The story was well worth having asked a stupid question.

Not to mention Air Force One only lands at EFD for security reasons. And Marine One takes the President from EFD to his Houtson destination.

No. They build them on the backside of EFD. No driving required.

Why not land Air Force One at Sugar Land? Wouldn't that be even less disruptive? And as for the high tech manufacturing operation on-premesis, that's probably one of the more convincing arguments to keep it. I just hope that the City is getting a fair buck for it.

Methinks you don't fly out of EFD much like I do.

Youthinks correctly. I've only ever flown in once on Continental Express.

Whatever you think, Hobby is not the answer. Hobby is already borderline dangerous, since the city has encroached around it. The expanded terminal and higher volume of operations will only exacerbate this condition. Even Sugar Land has a longer runway.

That situation alone seems to support the need for EFD. I think you'll start to see more of the corporate jets based at Hobby getting squeezed out, too. Hobby traffic is getting heavier and heavier. GA flights -- especially private jets -- will get tired of the delays and dangers of the high-speed, steep descent approaches to HOU and the extended time now required in the pattern, which will make EFD more attractive.

Short answer -- yes, I think it has a nice future.

What about the Sugar Land and new Katy airports? Think that might put the squeeze on Ellington's market share?

[dalparadise]

Sugar Land can accomodate 737s, but not 747s. HOU can't take a 747, either. EFD can.

As for Sugar Land or Katy -- they're very far away from anywhere except each other. EFD's only 20 minutes from Downtown and close to a lot of government-related aviation interests.

EDIT, regarding the discussion about Air Force One:

SGR's runway is 8000 ft. -- right at the edge of a 747's acceptable landing length. It would have to come in so low and slow, that it would be dangerous and not worth the risk for Air Force One. Plus, noise abatement rules would dictate 747s look elsewhere.

EFD's longest runway is 9000'. That's okay for 747s.

HOU's longest is about 7500'. Since we are at sea level, a 747 could probably land there in an emergency, but most would much rather divert to EFD -- especially on a really hot, humid day, when air density makes us seem more like an altitude of 2000'-3000'.

IAH has 10,000' runways. These are made for widebodies.

[MidtownCoog]

Not to mention there is, and hopefully always will be, a military presence at EFD. Even if it's transient in nature.

And EFD is minutes from Galveston Bay and the Ship Channel. Should the Coast Guard fly from GLS if there is a problem? Bad idea.

Houston deserves it.

Katy and Sugar Land are Katy and Sugar Land.

Houston would gobble them up if they could. Too bad they can't.

[TheNiche]

Sugar Land can accomodate 737s, but not 747s. HOU can't take a 747, either. EFD can.

As for Sugar Land or Katy -- they're very far away from anywhere except each other. EFD's only 20 minutes from Downtown and close to a lot of government-related aviation interests.

EDIT, regarding the discussion about Air Force One:

SGR's runway is 8000 ft. -- right at the edge of a 747's acceptable landing length. It would have to come in so low and slow, that it would be dangerous and not worth the risk for Air Force One. Plus, noise abatement rules would dictate 747s look elsewhere.

EFD's longest runway is 9000'. That's okay for 747s.

HOU's longest is about 7500'. Since we are at sea level, a 747 could probably land there in an emergency, but most would much rather divert to EFD -- especially on a really hot, humid day, when air density makes us seem more like an altitude of 2000'-3000'.

IAH has 10,000' runways. These are made for widebodies.

OK, this is the kind of explanation that I really wanted. Technical data and experience is good. The locational argument just wasn't cutting it for me.

Thanks.

[Houston1stWordOnTheMoon]

It has to be making some money, there are plans for expansion there just as there are for IAH and HOU.As for as sending business to non Houston airports, the landing fees that are collected will go with them. Not a smart move.

EFD brought in $328 million for Houston

HOU brought in $4.5 Billion for Houston

IAH brought in $19.4 Billion for Houston

more here http://system.gocampaign.com/houairportsys...econ_impact.pdf

[Montrose1100]

Ellington Field is home to the largest flying club in Houston (site of the annual Wings Over Houston Airshow). Today, the military still occupies a strong presence there, along with NASA. Additionally, Ellington serves as a base for corporate, commercial, cargo and private aviation operations.

Located on Ellington Field, approx. 15 miles south of Houston Texas, Air Station Houston is poised for any mission, 24 hours a day, 7 days a week, 365 days a year. Flying the HH-65A Dolphin, Air Station Houston conducts life saving missions to the Texas and Louisiana coast. In June 2001 Air Station Houston played a major role in the aftermath of Tropical Storm Allison. With over 80 hoists throughout the 24 hour period, the Air Station was a major factor in the lives of many Houstonians. The flooding occured four days after the initial storm. Four days prior, during the throws of the storm, an Air Station Houston helicopter flew into the storm through 65+ knot winds to perform a medevac.

The Commission found that the Department of Defense recommendation to realign Ellington Air Guard Station should be supported despite community concerns related to homeland security and the base’s military value. The Commission recognized the high number of sensitive facilities in the Houston area. The Commission agreed with the alert posture plan developed by the Department of Defense to station fighters at Ellington for Air Sovereignty Alert (ASA) on a rotational basis. The Commission also understands that the Air National Guard F-16 inventory must be reduced.

"Ellington retains the capability to support the homeland defense mission."

-GlobalSecurity.org

The base is also the location of NASA's fleet of T-38 Talon jets, the Shuttle Training Aircraft, and the Vomit Comet, a zero-g trainer. All three types of aircraft are used for astronaut training.

-Wikipedia

Today, EFD consists of three acting runways and provides 24-hour air traffic control services. It is also home to many tenants including the Texas Army National Guard, Delta Connection Academy and NASA, among others and the Houston Airport System is determined to add more.

Ellington’s future is looking bright. To add to its development, a new taxilane has been approved, with construction beginning in October 2006. Taxilane K will be 50 feet wide and 1790 feet long, big enough to impact the airport’s desirability for more general aviation tenants and aircraft owners.

This opens airfield access to a large amount of property previously unusable to aircraft operations. The taxilane is designed to handle Design Group II aircraft, which includes medium sized business jets.

-HAS® Houston Airport Systems

(Interesting PDF)

I'm sorry about the great deal of info, but its interesting to see what the future (may) hold for Ellington Field.

[TheNiche]

It has to be making some money, there are plans for expansion there just as there are for IAH and HOU.As for as sending business to non Houston airports, the landing fees that are collected will go with them. Not a smart move.

EFD brought in $328 million for Houston

HOU brought in $4.5 Billion for Houston

IAH brought in $19.4 Billion for Houston

more here http://system.gocampaign.com/houairportsys...econ_impact.pdf

That's interesting, but it is a topline figure. Revenues don't mean anything without a measure of expenses.

"Ellington retains the capability to support the homeland defense mission."

-GlobalSecurity.org

-Wikipedia

-HAS

[Houston19514]

OK, that's all fine and dandy. But the City of Houston owns and operates EFD. Is it a money-maker or a money-loser for the City? The Houston Airport System as a whole loses $30-something-million per year...

What is your source for this factoid about the Houston Airport System losing $30 million per year? My understanding is that airport system is a completely self-funded operation.

[MidtownCoog]

What is your source for this factoid about the Houston Airport System losing $30 million per year? My understanding is that airport system is a completely self-funded operation.

Same here.

Isn't that what Prop G was all about? Opening it up so the HAS could make even more money?

[gonzo1976]

Even so, where else will we have air shows then? That was the only reason I went to EFD.

[skwatra]

this has all been stated, and i think niche is happy. but since i sit in a building adjacent to the runways, figure i should jump in here.

the T-38s are out 3-4 days a week (right now actually). the crew needs to keep up their hours. they do the rest of their training on-site or at the pool (NBL) here. don't think they would appreciate having to drive out to sugar land or katy.

the guppy is out about once a week, they're not actually transporting anything that often. still can't figure out how that thing gets off the ground.

NASA's WB-57 high-altitude research aircraft flies out of here.

air force one was here a few weeks ago to support sekula-gibbs. oops.

the f-16s (national guard) are out training a few times a week.

the coast guard has a hangar here. their S&R helicopters are out training often.

[Houston1stWordOnTheMoon]

What is your source for this factoid about the Houston Airport System losing $30 million per year? My understanding is that airport system is a completely self-funded operation.

You are correct! They get thier money from landing fees, rental fees from vendors and airlines a like. Thats one reason the city has been so eager to help encourage more traffic at IAH from Continental as well as INTL airlines and cargo companies. The larger the plane, the more the landing fees are

[cwrm4]

I have often felt that EFD was under-utilized by corporate/general aviation. If the forecast "air-taxi" market materializes due to the impending introduction of Very Light Jets (VLJs), I think Hobby would quickly max out on capacity at peak times, and have to make the place unattractive to smaller users by implementing higher fees. Thus, EFD could be a more attractive alternative to HOU or Sugarland for execs going into downtown or industry on the east side of DT.

But unless NASA gets shut down, I don't think EFD is going anywhere. Those astronaut types need somewhere to play. To be comfortable in a T-38 you really want about 6-7000 ft of runway. If its raining, anything less than 9000 increases the pucker factor significantly.

[Houston19514]

EFD Master Plan