The US automakers and their troubles

[MidtownCoog]

A co-worker of mine lost his house in a fire due to his Ford F-150 catching fire

That sounds just a little too convenient. But they did catch fire.

[Mr. Chenevert]

That sounds just a little too convenient. But they did catch fire.

oh please, they (he has 3 kids) lived in a rental home for 9 months and had the house rebuilt as it was before the fire. What did they gain from a convenient fire. They lost EVERYTHING they owned. Even things that werent burned were ruined due to smoke and water damage.

Be careful what you say, even if its just on a forum. It makes you sound stupid.

[TheNiche]

No surprise there. You and your family are the poster children for those that vote against your own self interests.

Don't apologize. It's a well known fact that many union people and niche-like family members vote against their own self interests..unless their self interests involves remaining at the bottom of the ladder.

My grandfather and an uncle, neither of them college-educated, both of them dislexic, one of whom has never worn anything but blue jeans anywhere, have fashioned a life of blue collar entrepreneurship. By the sweat of their brow, they have earned their living, diligently saved, invested wisely, and as a result, each are multi-millionaires...not that you'd ever know it if you saw them.

Is this the profile of someone voting against their own self interest or at the bottom of the ladder? If only for the sake of your own credibility, please don't stereotype people.

[MidtownCoog]

So did you ask him why he sat on his recall?

[Mr. Chenevert]

So did you ask him why he sat on his recall?

probably for the same reason I drive around on a tire that I know has a nail in it. It isnt leaking, so I figure why fix it. But it could blow out at any point and then I would reflect back on my decision not to get it fixed.

Im sure if he knew it would have led to his house catching fire, he would have taken care of it. Hindsight is 20/20. We arent all as perfect as you midtown.

[ricco67]

So did you ask him why he sat on his recall?

probably for the same reason I drive around on a tire that I know has a nail in it. It isnt leaking, so I figure why fix it. But it could blow out at any point and then I would reflect back on my decision not to get it fixed.

Im sure if he knew it would have led to his house catching fire, he would have taken care of it. Hindsight is 20/20. We arent all as perfect as you midtown.

Couldn't it be as something as simple as "I'll take care of it next week when I have the time?" I think we've all done something like that when it comes to our cars or if something doesn't need something RIGHT THEN. It could also be that he doesn't want to be without a truck for the amount of time that they fixed it.

Could it be that he might have gone to the dealership and told him what the turn around time and said "screw this" and waited until he had more time to devote to it? Haven't we all been guilty of putting something off until the last minute?

It's amazing on how little decisions in your day to day life can make a considerable impact on your and other people's lives. I'm keeping my rocks in my pocket, Coog. How about you?

[MidtownCoog]

We arent all as perfect as you midtown.

Well I am a Virgo. Things like that get taken care of in my house, post-haste.

ESPECIALLY a recall that states my car is prone to catching fire! Hello!

[TJones]

probably for the same reason I drive around on a tire that I know has a nail in it. It isnt leaking, so I figure why fix it. But it could blow out at any point and then I would reflect back on my decision not to get it fixed.

Im sure if he knew it would have led to his house catching fire, he would have taken care of it. Hindsight is 20/20. We arent all as perfect as you midtown.

It is not about anyone being perfect. The fact is that was what the WHOLE recall was about !!! I was working for Ford when this recall came about, I immediately walked outside and disconnected the Cruise Contol wire MYSELF. They even had a diagram on TV and online about it. I eventually had it replaced in my Expedition as the parts were back ordered for everyone that came into the service dept. to have it fixed. All wires were disconnected for the owners until their part came in, and then the owner was called to come in and have the 10 minute procedure done.

[MidtownCoog]

If you can't make it in at least park the dang thing out front!

Not in the GARAGE!

[Mr. Chenevert]

If you can't make it in at least park the dang thing out front!

Not in the GARAGE!

actually it was. but seriously, you are missing the point.

[TJones]

If you can't make it in at least park the dang thing out front!

Not in the GARAGE!

Figure the percentage also, and how Ford stepped up to the plate on it. Probably 5 million 1998 to 2002 Ford products that fell under the recall ? Out of that only 64 fires of these products related or connected to the faulty cruise control switch. So, you have a bad batch of switches from TI, that are unable to trackdown because of time constraints, So, Ford recalls them ALL. That is doing "Job 1". But Ford doesn't get Kudos for it, they catch blame again for actually thwarting another "Firestone" disaster. These two incidents have hurt Ford severly int he last 5 years and continues to feed into their demise.

64/5,000,000 = .0000128% <------this is the percentage BTW.

[Mr. Chenevert]

Figure the percentage also, and how Ford stepped up to the plate on it. Probably 5 million 1998 to 2002 Ford products that fell under the recall ? Out of that only 64 fires of these products related or connected to the faulty cruise control switch. So, you have a bad batch of switches from TI, that are unable to trackdown because of time constraints, So, Ford recalls them ALL. That is doing "Job 1". But Ford doesn't get Kudos for it, they catch blame again for actually thwarting another "Firestone" disaster. These two incidents have hurt Ford severly int he last 5 years and continues to feed into their demise.

64/5,000,000 = .0000128% <------this is the percentage BTW.

How in the world do you figure that "64" has any accuracy? Do you realize that fires happen without people knowing the cause? Or if Ford had not fixed it, how many more fires there would be?

I mean ____, you are making it sound like its no biggie.... its a huggie... people could have died while they were "safe" in their beds and the ford was in the garage.

DAMN!

And you call it awesome that ford replaced them all, even though it was just one bad batch. Well, if ford would have a better supply chain system, maybe they could have narrowed down the bad ones easier.

[TJones]

Ummm, this is HOW I have accuracy, all fire claims have been investigated. I was actually OFF on the numbers though. I was going by what I remembered, not bad though, I was only off by 1 fire.

Here's a link: http://www.safetyforum.com/fordcruisecontrol/

btw, How many lawsuits were filed for NON-Ford products Mr.Chen, two hundred and what ? You may be driving a timebomb right now ? My point was Ford took care of their problem, what are the OTHER manufacturers doing ?

Believe me, Insurance companies look for ANY reason NOT to have to pay you for your claim. If they can find a cause and that cause is negligence on someone else's part. You better believe they are gonna want THAT party to pay, instead of THEM. They send in a team if arson, or a "KNOWN" possible cause is evident at the place the fire occurred. They will go over it with a fine tooth comb, and in some cases impound vehicles to go over them thoroughly.

[RedScare]

Ford knew that the switch caused fires in 1999, but did not issue recalls until 6 years later....and you want us to give them KUDOS?

Wow.

[TJones]

Ford knew that the switch caused fires in 1999, but did not issue recalls until 6 years later....and you want us to give them KUDOS?

Wow.

Read the article again Red, Ford did NOT know at that point. They said it COULD. Apparently there hadn't been any fires at that point, when the letter was written, so they had no evidence to back up the hypothecy. The fires didn't start occuring until 2002, with only about 4 or 5 at that time frame, not until 2004 or 2005 was it apparent that the older, corroded switches which had a minimum of about 80k miles on them were the ones causing problems. It wasn't BRAND NEW off the showroom models, but the switches were still being used in them up until 2002, so they recall the whole lot.

[MidtownCoog]

Ford grabs most 2007 vehicle quality awards

DETROIT

[plumber2]

Ford knew that the switch caused fires in 1999, but did not issue recalls until 6 years later....and you want us to give them KUDOS?

Wow.

The mayor of Tiki Island lost his house to a fire a few years ago while he was out fishing. It was determined that his Ford, that was parked underneath, caught fire

and burned down the house. I now keep my Ford F150 parked outside, even after the recall visit. (Just being cautious )

[nmainguy]

If only for the sake of your own credibility, please don't stereotype people.

While I may comment from time to time on some of your more ludicrous posts, I have no intention of debating-to paraphrase the editor regarding you- a "baiter".

[nmainguy]

Read the article again Red, Ford did NOT know at that point. They said it COULD.

Yeah, coulda, woulda, shoulda...but Ford did rectify the problem...you were wrong on the 10 minute repair job though...Tommy Vaughn did my 98 F150 in about 5 minutes. I'm not trying to minimalize the problem but sometimes things like this are so out of perspective to be worthy of a non-comment. There was a problem. Millions were notified. I took advantage and drove about 2 miles; spent about 5 minutes to fix a problem on a feature I never use and here I am. Still driving the '98 with a little over 60,000 miles and moving on.

[mumbles]

So Toyotas quality goes down as most are not built in the USA. Who woulda guessed! My first toy truck I replaced the brakes and battery and sold at 90 some thousand miles. My second which had a GM radiator in it, the radiator went out, it was a standard shift, started popping out of gear. Now I have a made in Japan 4 runner with 107,000 miles. Let's see how far it goes.

[TJones]

Yeah, coulda, woulda, shoulda...but Ford did rectify the problem...you were wrong on the 10 minute repair job though...Tommy Vaughn did my 98 F150 in about 5 minutes. I'm not trying to minimalize the problem but sometimes things like this are so out of perspective to be worthy of a non-comment. There was a problem. Millions were notified. I took advantage and drove about 2 miles; spent about 5 minutes to fix a problem on a feature I never use and here I am. Still driving the '98 with a little over 60,000 miles and moving on.

I don't know where you are going with that statement ol'buddy ?

[Mr. Chenevert]

Pretty sad that the Labor Unions are not willing to play nice... Its time to end the unions, even if it means one of the detroit companies has to fall....

Originally Posted by Autoextremist.com

Clueless in Canada and mired in a state of denial in Detroit, organized labor is pathologically out of touch - and out of time.

Detroit. Canadian Auto Workers union leader Buzz Hargrove is an interesting character. He's quick with media-friendly quips that garner a lot of attention, he's a fierce defender of his union membership, and he fancies himself as the only bright light of rational thinking in the whole union vs. management dance. But he's also a loose-cannon firebrand who is firmly entrenched in organized labor's "entitlement" past and a looming impediment to any substantive progress in the upcoming contract bargaining talks with the Detroit-based automakers.

And he proved that convincingly with his idiotic statements over the weekend at a union rally in Windsor.

The purpose of the Sunday meeting, according to the Windsor Star, was to rally the 1200 members of Local 1973, who were upset with the fact that GM had decided to build a new six-speed transmission at their St. Catharines (Ontario) plant instead of in their Windsor (Ontario) transmission facility. Hargrove, in classic management-bashing rhetoric, told the assembled workers that "They made the decision to put the transmission in St. Catharines, and they say publicly if they don't get the right deal in St. Catharines it will not come to Canada, therefore eliminating Windsor. I say to them, you better find a goddamn product for Windsor or we'll take all of the General Motors corporation down in September 2008. General Motors workers have earned the commitment, especially in Windsor." Hargrove went on to say that a strike action would be used as a weapon to destroy GM when his union's contract negotiations begin in 2008 (the UAW contract negotiations begin this summer).

In effect, Hargrove is saying, let's take an entire industry that's literally and figuratively hanging by a thread and destroy it with a strike - and destroy our own jobs in the process. Makes a lot of sense, doesn't it? To the highly corrosive mindset at the helm of the CAW, apparently it does, unfortunately.

Hargrove's comments are not all that dissimilar from Ron Gettelfinger's of late. Gettelfinger, the UAW president, has been spouting off like it's 1972 - hammering home organized labor's classic refrain revolving around the concept of "more" - more money, more health care, more pension increases and of course, more entitlement. Remember folks, this is the same guy who firmly believes that the infamous "Jobs Bank" - where workers get paid to do nothing - is perfectly rational in this day and age, and should remain in effect indefinitely.

Whether these guys live in a weird Twilight Zone of Denial or they're just pathologically out of touch - or both - it's clear to everyone within a hammer throw of their senses that there isn't a snowball's chance in Hell that the Detroit-based automakers can survive in the newly-limned global automotive market if the existing union contracts are left essentially untouched in the upcoming negotiations - as these union leaders are making noises suggesting that they should be.

All of the eye-popping concessions and agreed-upon perks that seemed so "fair" in the late 80s and early 90s are now so outrageously out of sync with reality that I would think these union leaders would be embarrassed to even mention them in public, but nooo, they not only mention them, they're under the impression that they're entitled to them - as if the domestic-based automakers will always be there and will always be able to foot the bill.

Gettelfinger and Hargrove's powers of selective rationalization must be truly awe-inspiring; either that, or they actually believe that the plummeting market share of what is left of the car companies quaintly known as the "Big Three" is but a temporary hiccup and that there's a virulent plot of some sort at work here - part of a vast conspiracy to deprive them of their benefits packages.

I've said it before, and I'll say it again: If the Detroit-based car companies had the cojones to do it, they could "lock-out" the current membership of the UAW and CAW. And do you know what would happen then? There would be short-term pain to be sure, but then there would be fifteen people lining up for each and every job all across this country and in Canada - all eager to work for reduced wages and benefits.

These union leaders don't believe that could ever happen, but perhaps they should pay attention to what happened to the 1,500 members of the Aircraft Mechanics Fraternal Association when they went on strike against Northwest Airlines two-and-one-half years ago. Northwest stuck to their guns, and the entire work force ended up getting replaced.

The current management of the UAW and CAW not only doesn't get it, they're frighteningly incapable of getting it. They are unable to function in a world that has changed around them to such a degree that their views on the issues are simply irrelevant in a global automobile industry that has been turned upside down and sideways.

Hargrove and Gettelfinger have yet to come to terms with the fact that they face a clearcut choice in these upcoming contract negotiations. And that choice comes down to this: They either accept a reduced number of jobs at a reduced pay scale and with reduced benefits, or they will be left with no jobs at all.

The American automobile industry is in crisis. And with plants and jobs teetering on the brink of disaster in the U.S. and in Canada, these times demand serious people willing to seriously contemplate the issues at hand in a rational and realistic manner. We need deep thinkers capable of seeing the Big Picture, people who are willing to reconfigure the status quo, leaving the hoary old rhetoric right where it belongs - in the past - while working on molding a future filled with hope and promise. One that's fueled by a boldly competitive mindset in tune with the rest of the automotive world.

Right now, Buzz Hargrove and Ron Gettelfinger have given every indication through their inflammatory statements and juvenile grandstanding that they are shockingly ill-qualified for the task.

Thanks for listening, see you next Wednesday.

[Mr. Chenevert]

For those not familiar with "Jobs Bank" as it related to the UAW contracts, an interesting read:

http://www.detnews.com/2005/autosinsider/0.../A01-351179.htm

Jobs bank programs -- 12,000 paid not to work

Big 3 and suppliers pay billions to keep downsized UAW members on payroll in decades-long deal.

Close out jobs bank?

With thousands of laid off autoworkers costing the auto industry hundreds of millions of dollars for their jobs banks, is it time the auto industry shed itself of this program?

WAYNE -- Ken Pool is making good money. On weekdays, he shows up at 7 a.m. at Ford Motor Co.'s Michigan Truck Plant in Wayne, signs in, and then starts working -- on a crossword puzzle. Pool hates the monotony, but the pay is good: more than $31 an hour, plus benefits.

"We just go in and play crossword puzzles, watch videos that someone brings in or read the newspaper," he says. "Otherwise, I've just sat."

Pool is one of more than 12,000 American autoworkers who, instead of installing windshields or bending sheet metal, spend their days counting the hours in a jobs bank set up by Detroit automakers and Delphi Corp. as part of an extraordinary job security agreement with the United Auto Workers union.

The jobs bank programs were the price the industry paid in the 1980s to win UAW support for controversial efforts to boost productivity through increased automation and more flexible manufacturing......

[TJones]

WOW, I need to see if they are throwing snowballs in Hell. Mr.Chen and I totally agree on something.

[Mr. Chenevert]

WOW, I need to see if they are throwing snowballs in Hell. Mr.Chen and I totally agree on something.

I think we would agree on lots of things.

[sevfiv]

well, nevermind. this kinda blows electric out of the water...err, oil:

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/chronicle/4869099.html

The major U.S. refiners of gasoline, from Big Oil companies like Exxon Mobil Corp. and Chevron Corp. to stand-alone refiners like Valero Energy, are seeing some of the strongest profits ever as pump prices reach new peaks.

In the first quarter, profits for the 11 companies with domestic refining operations shot up 22 percent to $4.7 billion, according to the federal Energy Information Administration.

For the stand-alone refiners, the jump was a mind-blowing 579 percent to $248 million, as refineries boosted output and the spread widened between what the companies paid for crude oil and what they charged for gasoline, said the agency, part of the Department of Energy.

any chance that someone will do something good and bring back a car like the EV1?

cars like Zaps are looking too pricey to "invest" in (http://www.zapworld.com/), and Kurrents...yeah.

what are the chances (and what would be the cost) of the Volt?

[Subdude]

So it looks like Ford is going to try to dump Land Rover and Jaguar. I'm not sure who would want Jaguar. There have been rumors about selling Volvo to BMW, but now both Ford and BMW deny it.

UPDATE: Ford Mulls Luxury Brand Options, Says No Move Is Imminent

June 12, 2007: 01:17 PM EST

SAN FRANCISCO (Dow Jones) -- Ford Motor Co. confirmed Tuesday that it is considering all options for its profitable luxury division, but the ailing automaker said that, contrary to rampant speculation, there's no announcement on tap anytime soon.

"We're not ruling anything in or anything out," said John Gardiner, a spokesman for Ford's Premier Automotive Group. "Believe me, you can go away on holiday -- even take a couple of months if you like -- and you won't miss a thing."

Still, Gardiner admitted that Ford (F) is, in fact, consulting with its financial advisers about the best route to take with Jaguar and Land Rover, but "it's not that different from the position we were in last year as far as considering a number of strategic options."

Last month, Ford dismissed reports from a Swedish publication regarding the possible sale of Volvo, the third leg of luxury division, to BMW.

Rest of article

[TexasArchitect]

So Toyotas quality goes down as most are not built in the USA. Who woulda guessed! My first toy truck I replaced the brakes and battery and sold at 90 some thousand miles. My second which had a GM radiator in it, the radiator went out, it was a standard shift, started popping out of gear. Now I have a made in Japan 4 runner with 107,000 miles. Let's see how far it goes.

HA!! a 4 runner?? a co-worker of mine has one and she swears by it. i think she said hers is a 94 and she's always bragging how no major work has ever been made on that suv. made in japan =

JDM FTW yo!!!