The US automakers and their troubles

[jm1fd]

The spike in gas prices caught the Big 3 flat footed. They claimed they did not see it coming, though the Japanese manufacturers somehow did.

The Japanese manufacturers didn't really see it coming either. Have you seen the MPG numbers for the previous generation of Tundra/Sequioa? Its a damn sight worse than those of the domestics...and the domestics put out more HP and are larger!

The thing is, the Japanese had history on their side.....they began their rise to automotive power in the 70s during the oil crisis, they did it with small power plants. By the time the oil crisis was over, they were staffed to the gills with engineers who knew how to do everything small and efficient, so they just carried the theme forward since that's what their talent knew best.

[RedScare]

The Japanese manufacturers didn't really see it coming either. Have you seen the MPG numbers for the previous generation of Tundra/Sequioa? Its a damn sight worse than those of the domestics...and the domestics put out more HP and are larger!

Umm, yeah. I own a Tundra. Not sure where your numbers come from, but mine are better than the comparable domestics that I looked at.

Coog and TJ. This is what I was talking about.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/17385761/

I guess bad drivers all drive American brands.....and Mercedes.

[webdude]

I find it stupid to choose something just because its an american brand, especially for something like cars. I hope ppl don't choose american brand cars to be patriotic, because it is doing more harm than good. It gives the 3 a fake sense of security and less likely to strive for real technical competitiveness because they think there is always a market out there for them no matter what, and this lack of response and feel for real market contributes to their continuous decline.

I will choose the most reliable suv or car, american or not. At this time, reports after reports boast the reliability of non-american brand cars so thats what I have to go with.

Maybe in the next century, the big 3 can catch up.

It could be worse, imagine how embarrassing it would be if 50 years later we start seeing made in china cars overtake american brands.

And BTW, reliability reports also includes handling, braking, acceleration, fuel economy, comfort, safety etc, not just how long they last.

[jm1fd]

Umm, yeah. I own a Tundra. Not sure where your numbers come from, but mine are better than the comparable domestics that I looked at.

Mine come from the EPA....

2007 Sequoia: 15 city 18 highway

2007 Suburban: 15 city 21 highway (bigger engine, bigger vehicle)

2007 Silverado 6.0L: 15 city 19 highway

2007 Tundra 5.7L 5spd auto: 15 city 18 highway

[RedScare]

jm,

The 2007 5.7l Tundra is 16/20 mpg, beating the Vortec and HEMI by 1 mpg. My post was referring 2003 numbers, which, though similar for the Tundra, were lower for the domestics.

All of this misses the real point. That is, Toyota is profitable throughout its product line. The Tundra only accounts for 200,000 vehicles, whereas GM relies very heavily on truck/SUV sales. Whether in 2003 or today, no Toyota car gets less than 28 mpg, almost every one of them get over 30 mpg, half get over 40 mpg, and Prius gets over 50 mpg. Only Honda is more dedicated to fuel efficiency.

GM put all its eggs in trucks and SUVs. They banked on never-ending cheap gas and good economy. Toyota positioned itself to do well in good times and bad, cheap gas and high priced gas. I consider that great management and foresight, versus GM's very limited foresight.

BTW, pound for pound, and dollar for dollar, I consider the Tacoma the best pickup out there for 75% of the truck buying public, who only uses a truck for Home Depot runs on weekends. If not for the for the fact that I got a great discount on my Tundra (they were clearing the lot for the new double cab), I would have bought a Tacoma. Two of my brothers own Tacomas, and they are nearly perfect vehicles IMHO.

[MidtownCoog]

That's report is great if you plan to keep your car ten years.

They say US cars have problems when they are 5-6 years old. Then they go on to say the Jap cars can last ten.

Life is too short to drive the same car for six years much less 10.

And don't get me started on the Tacoma. That's a baby truck for people who don't have kids.

[RedScare]

That's report is great if you plan to keep your car ten years.

They say US cars have problems when they are 5-6 years old. Then they go on to say the Jap cars can last ten.

Life is too short to drive the same car for six years much less 10.

Classic.

[MidtownCoog]

Sounds like you have experience with driving ten year old cars, huh?

Who in the world would want to drive the same car for 10 years?

[woolie]

? why not, if it's still reliable and effective. No point in "new for the sake of new," imho.

[MidtownCoog]

Whatever floats your boat. I don't know anyone driving a ten year old car, Jap, American or German.

[TheNiche]

Whatever floats your boat. I don't know anyone driving a ten year old car, Jap, American or German.

Yeah, the 10-year mark was where my old Accord started having major electrical problems. Seems that that's pretty common in Hondas of that vintage. Rather than have it all diagnosed and repaired, I just went for a new one. My intention was to be a 10-year owner on the Mazda too, but if I move, I'll downsize and take the cash on the front-end.

[TJones]

Umm, yeah. I own a Tundra. Not sure where your numbers come from, but mine are better than the comparable domestics that I looked at.

Coog and TJ. This is what I was talking about.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/17385761/

I guess bad drivers all drive American brands.....and Mercedes.

No, it's not ALL bad drivers, it is just a mind set of the consumers that buys Japanese for the most part. I have 8 years in the Auto industry, I can claim to be an "expert". I probably see a few more "detailed" reports than the rest on here. I have dealt with folks on both sides of the coin, foreign and domestic sales. There IS a difference. Consumer Reports is a joke rag, I take everything they say with a grain of salt.

What I mean by mindset is that folks that buy Japanese are very cautious and are basically teatotallers, they are also HUGE internet users. Consumers that typically still buy American love HP and torque, and damn the gas prices. Farmers and "country" folk are still brand loyal to American, although I have made a few converts to the Nissan product. It is funny how you guys always leave out Nissan, but truth be known they are way bigger than Honda and just behind Toyota in the land of the Rising Sun. Alot of consumers though think that these Japanese cars are still being made in Japan. WRONG, most "Japanese" vehicles bought here are made here in America by Americans. They just use Japanese standards and tolerances, which is where the real difference is. 1mm ladies and gentlemen, 1mm is the tolerance for fit and finish for Japanese product. That is why they seem to hold up better, they are put together a little tighter, so you don't hear as many sqeaks and moans as you turn corners and such. Perception is key, Toyota and Nissan build great product, I will not deny that, the big 3 have actually changed their standards to meet the Japanese. They have gone so far as to put there names on alot of Japanese models, you may not have realized, in an effort to gain knowledge as to how the Japanese build a "better" product than them.

[TheNiche]

Consumer Reports is a joke rag, I take everything they say with a grain of salt.

I've heard this as well from multiple reputable sources.

[MidtownCoog]

What I mean by mindset is that folks that buy Japanese are very cautious and are basically teatotallers,

Which is why I say the Jap cars are too vanilla for my taste. Safe, reliable and boring. Maybe when I am 50.

And Niche, how much smaller can you go from a Mazda 6? Don't you ever travel or take people in your car? How many people and gear can you really fit in a Yaris?

[webdude]

I think this is worth repeating, just in case someone tries to pass of the good points of japanese brand cars as only long lasting.

And BTW, reliability reports also includes handling, braking, acceleration, fuel economy, comfort, safety etc, not just how long they last.

And I think I will take those real expert reports over online forums posters self proclaim expertise.

[RedScare]

TJ, you are the first person to ever accuse me of being a teetotaller.

Your post however, is exactly my point. It is not American workers turning out bad product, but American management. Whereas Japn's mentality is quality first, US automakers for too long were profit first. It nearly buried them. They are attempting to dig out of a huge hole that they dug for themselves. Even that rag Consumer Reports admits that the Big 3 put out much better product than they used to, but the Japanese never built crap in the first place (except for Mitsubishi, which apparently thought they could get by on the Japanese reputation alone).

For Coog, if a new car every couple of years works for you, no problem. For me, I have owned 12 in the last 25 years. I finally learned when I blew $57,000 on the Porsche in 1999. It was really hard to justify spending $13,000 a year on loan, insurance, maintanance and gas just to drive to work and back. So yeah, I do look forward to driving my Toyota for another 6 years.

[musicman]

That's report is great if you plan to keep your car ten years.

They say US cars have problems when they are 5-6 years old. Then they go on to say the Jap cars can last ten.

Life is too short to drive the same car for six years much less 10.

also life is too short to have a monthly car payment. knock on wood my chevy with 211k miles will keep working. but i must admit am looking at a toyota

[MidtownCoog]

I just can't handle 10 years and 211k miles of coffee spills.

4-5 years is about all I can stand before I get bored.

[TheNiche]

Which is why I say the Jap cars are too vanilla for my taste. Safe, reliable and boring. Maybe when I am 50.

And Niche, how much smaller can you go from a Mazda 6? Don't you ever travel or take people in your car? How many people and gear can you really fit in a Yaris?

Yaris disgusts me, aesthetically speaking, so I'm not going to dignify that with an answer.

But my 6 is actually pretty spacious. They had a lot of other mid-size sedans beat; my 6' 8" cousin can attest to it. But I don't carry around many passengers, and when I do, it is usually just one at a time. So I've been very tempted in the past by the RX-8. I think its trunk has 9 cubic feet--nothing at all compared to mine, which is big enough for several bodies.

But when I do travel, the 6 is perfect. Any smaller or larger and I'd probably have a problem with space or mileage. ...and the crossover style just doesn't do it for me.

[dbigtex56]

Corrected spelling in topic title again - the word is spelled 'their', not 'thier'.

[musicman]

I just can't handle 10 years and 211k miles of coffee spills.

4-5 years is about all I can stand before I get bored.

as long as it gets me from point a to point b, relatively trouble free,and the cd player works, i'm happy!

[TJones]

TJ, you are the first person to ever accuse me of being a teetotaller.

Your post however, is exactly my point. It is not American workers turning out bad product, but American management. Whereas Japn's mentality is quality first, US automakers for too long were profit first. It nearly buried them. They are attempting to dig out of a huge hole that they dug for themselves. Even that rag Consumer Reports admits that the Big 3 put out much better product than they used to, but the Japanese never built crap in the first place (except for Mitsubishi, which apparently thought they could get by on the Japanese reputation alone).

For Coog, if a new car every couple of years works for you, no problem. For me, I have owned 12 in the last 25 years. I finally learned when I blew $57,000 on the Porsche in 1999. It was really hard to justify spending $13,000 a year on loan, insurance, maintanance and gas just to drive to work and back. So yeah, I do look forward to driving my Toyota for another 6 years.

Far be it for me to accuse you of that Counselor. Of course, not everybody fits the mold of the Japanese car buyer. I know you love your Tundra that was built in San Antonio. I am mainly speaking about the Japanese CAR buyers. Trucks is a different demographic. There are so many factors involved with the buyers of American and the buyers of Japanese makes, that I wouldn't want to offend anyone. I have only owned ONE Japanese car my whole life and I pretty much go through cars like Red apparently and that is over a 21 year time period. I admit to owning a Mitsubishi, because it was cheap and it was neat at the time, but never again. There is a reason why Mitsubishi used to do 0 down, 0 %, and 0 payments for 24 months, because by then, you were so far upside down, you were forced to keep driving it and they can show a car on the road. That didn't happen to me, thank goodness. I can tell you some horror stories though. I have NEVER had any of my American cars in the shop for any major mechanical problems, like I said, alot depends on its owner.

[Mr. Chenevert]

Yea, you are right. My IS300 is just plain boring

I would much rather have a Chevy Impala.

After about 6 years and 90k miles with the IS300, I plan on keeping it for another 3-4 years.

50/50 weight distribution (actually 47/53, but you get the idea)

Inline 6 that is smooth as butter all the way to redline.

Rear wheel drive

Manual transmission with very crisp shifts

It hasnt bored me yet.

[MidtownCoog]

Yawn. A fancy rebadged Toyota.

When I bought my BMW 3 Wagon in 2000 I checked Edmonds for the side by side comparison to that car.

There was no comparision. I think Edmonds said "close Toyota, but keep on trying".

And I notice you fail to mention the suspension. That's the weak link in the IS300 compared to the BMW. Otherwise they are pretty good cars, but everything rides (literally) on the suspension.

[Mr. Chenevert]

Yawn. A fancy rebadged Toyota.

When I bought my BMW 3 Wagon in 2000 I checked Edmonds for the side by side comparison to that car.

There was no comparision. I think Edmonds said "close Toyota, but keep on trying".

And I notice you fail to mention the suspension. That's the weak link in the IS300 compared to the BMW. Otherwise they are pretty good cars, but everything rides (literally) on the suspension.

I see you spent a tremendous amount of time (read edmunds while taking a poop) researching the IS300. How can my personal opinion of a car that I have driven for 6 years counter your expert research?

This is the reason I dont discuss cars on a architectural forum. My point was simply that Japan can and does make fun cars.

I mean, heck, take the Miata, that car alone re-created an entire segment in the industry. A segment that is anything but boring.

Yes, the Camry and the Accord represent the ultimate vanilla car. But guess what, vanilla is the best selling ice cream flavor. Toyota and Honda wouldnt be where they were today if they didnt make the best damn vanilla they could.

Ford and Chevy can't seem to make a good tasting vanilla no matter how hard they try. And you cant make a good banana split without first making vanilla.

[MidtownCoog]

This is the "Way Off Topic" forum so car-talk is fair game. Don't be shy.

Of course your car is exciting. I was saying the Germans win the sporty contest.

[TheNiche]

I mean, heck, take the Miata, that car alone re-created an entire segment in the industry. A segment that is anything but boring.

Yes, the Camry and the Accord represent the ultimate vanilla car. But guess what, vanilla is the best selling ice cream flavor. Toyota and Honda wouldnt be where they were today if they didnt make the best damn vanilla they could.

Ford and Chevy can't seem to make a good tasting vanilla no matter how hard they try. And you cant make a good banana split without first making vanilla.

Yes the Miata was fun (I grew up in the passenger seat of one), but I've experienced two spinouts on the winding Hill Country roads of Hays County. It also fishtailed on wet roads really badly and had multiple AC problems.

As for vanilla, I don't care for it. But give me some vanilla bean! Yum.

[jm1fd]

jm,

The 2007 5.7l Tundra is 16/20 mpg, beating the Vortec and HEMI by 1 mpg. My post was referring 2003 numbers, which, though similar for the Tundra, were lower for the domestics.

That's the 5.7L with the 6 speed automatic. The figure I quoted was for the 5 speed auto.

? why not, if it's still reliable and effective. No point in "new for the sake of new," imho.

Reliable and effective sure...but how much is your life worth? A new car versus a 10 year old one will be leaps and bounds ahead in terms of safety.

[jm1fd]

Yawn. A fancy rebadged Toyota.

I see. So which Toyota model did they rebadge for the GS, LS, SC and IS? I'm having a bit of difficulty figuring that one out...

[TJones]

Ford and Chevy can't seem to make a good tasting vanilla no matter how hard they try. And you cant make a good banana split without first making vanilla.

I would say a Ford GT would pretty much be the whole friggin Baskin Robbins 31 flavors store as far as performance, and looks are concerned. I will be happy to put a Z06 Vette or GTS Viper against an M3 M5 or Supra Turbo, anyday of the week.

I can make a Camaro or Stang destroy a Miata or IS300 any day of the week. All you'll see is the tailights as you are left sitting at the greenlight. But yes, they are fun cars, if you want to run in a soapbox derby ? J/K, I am strictly American Muscle though when it comes to cars, but I can appreciate a fine engineered anything, carwise.