The 700-mile border fence

[DJ V Lawrence]

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/front/4288856.html

Not sure I get this one. According to this article, the main reason why Bush signed this bill now was to show that Republicans are tough on "securing the border". Is that REALLY the issue? What about the illegal immigrants already here? If there were more done to help illegal citizens become legal citizens, and they made it easier to become a citizen than to come across illegally, wouldn't that lower the number of illegal immigrants in America, and shut up the people who are upset that illegal immigrants don't have to pay the same taxes and recieve the same health care benefits as everyone else? I thought the main issue was documentation, not a fence.

What I don't understand is why it's okay to try to use this as a reason why we should vote for a political party. Yea, the Delay and Foley scandals happened, and I understand that Republicans will need to do more until November to try to keep congress, but this border is more than a political issue. It directly affects 4 states, and there's no telling what the changes will be in terms of the Rio Grande.

Does this answer and end the debate on illegal immigration, or do little with our money? And does this help Bush's approval ratings to you?

[sevfiv]

i'll repost mine here:

"[Outgoing Mexican President Vicente Fox] calls the fence "shameful" and compares it to the Berlin Wall."

i see that...scary

and of course the guest worker program is stuck (somewhere) in lovely congress

Edited October 26, 2006 by sevfiv

[RedScare]

Of course it is worth the money! Look how much they are spending on it!

The measure Bush put into law Thursday before heading for campaign stops in Iowa and Michigan offers no money for the fence project covering one-third of the 2,100-mile border.

This is the perfect bill for Bush to sign before the elections. It shows what Republicans are made of. All show, no substance.

Of course, for the Republicans' core constituency, those that cannot read, this bill looks like the Republicans are getting tough on "securing the border". For the rest of us, not so much.

[TheNiche]

I thought the main issue was documentation, not a fence.

No kidding.

...but its an election year, so...

[ricco67]

after reading some of the article (god!), turns out the monies can be spent any way that particular region sees fit whether its a fence, monitoring equipment, or additional personnel to patrol the border. there isn't anything to prevent spending anything specific, but i'm sure there's going to be some "creative justification" on what is going to be built.

this is a poorly written bill that's going to do little to prevent illegals crossing over or anything about the ones that are here!

i think we need a fence or something akin to a fence and THEN let local people decide how they should spend future funds.

this bill is a joke.

[Orikal]

Anyone seen Rick Perry's TV ads?

What a joke.

http://www.governor.state.tx.us/divisions/...2006-10-17.2335

[musicman]

^

^

^

ALL the ads are a joke just like this election season!

[sevfiv]

on npr they were talking about the huge gaps that would be in the fence because of altitude differences, and how the fence would not be able to be constructed in certain spots (montain-y desert-y areas).

also, a rep from a private company was wondering why the government estimated the cost being so high (apparently he could do the same project with a third less money or so).

oh, and the reservations it would be cutting through.

unfortunately, i started listening about half way in, so i didn't catch who they were interviewing

________________________________

a story from NPR:

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=6388548

[Original Timmy Chan's]

The fence is a stupid idea. There's a reason the Berlin Wall came down.

There's already fence up along portions of the border, and as soon as they go up, they're useless. People cut the wire, cut through steel, jump the fence, tunnel under the fence, etc.

What a colossal waste of money, and an environmental catastrophe for the animals on the US side that will no longer have access to water.

You gotta love it when people who've never been to the border (our CONGRESS) think they know what's best for the people that live on the border. From what I hear, those that live on the border don't want a fence.

[nmainguy]

Bush says

"We have a responsibility to enforce our laws...We have a responsibility to secure our borders. We take this responsibility serious."

and then:

Cornyn said he voted for the fence because he wanted to help demonstrate that Congress was serious about border security.

The measure Bush put into law Thursday before heading for campaign stops in Iowa and Michigan offers no money for the fence project covering one-third of the 2,100-mile border.

Some observations:

Fences and walls don't work. [think the Great wall and the Berlin Wall]

Our entire border with Mexico is the Rio Grande. Does the wall go down the middle?

__________________________________________________________________________

Don't forget to vote.

[DJ V Lawrence]

^

^

^

ALL the ads are a joke just like this election season!

I agree! Can't believe I'm saying this, but I think Kinky Friedman's put up the only reasonable campaign ad I've seen so far this year.

The fence is a stupid idea. There's a reason the Berlin Wall came down.

There's already fence up along portions of the border, and as soon as they go up, they're useless. People cut the wire, cut through steel, jump the fence, tunnel under the fence, etc.

What a colossal waste of money, and an environmental catastrophe for the animals on the US side that will no longer have access to water.

You gotta love it when people who've never been to the border (our CONGRESS) think they know what's best for the people that live on the border. From what I hear, those that live on the border don't want a fence.

I say OYE OYE OYE to that one, yo. Think about this: After the wall goes up, how many people in the future will be pushing for it to come down? Then what? Another politician in his speech promises to tear that wall down, then wins, then has to do it to comply with his wall promise? And that may very well happen, because a majority of the new voters in our future...are not George W. Bush. Could U imagine how much of a taxpayer waste that would be just building a 700-mile wall for a 2100-mile border, let alone tearing it down?

And how could anyone approve of building a "symbol" that we're doing something to contain poor documentation? The wall's a little short, yo. What am I going to do to illegally cross the border to Mexico now? Just walk around it?

[TheNiche]

I agree! Can't believe I'm saying this, but I think Kinky Friedman's put up the only reasonable campaign ad I've seen so far this year.

No kidding...although I did see a Cohen add this morning that was really very respectable in which she actually spoke to the camera. Her many anti-Wong adds are a bit too vicious for my taste, though...not necessarily incorrect, but vicious.

[west20th]

No kidding...although I did see a Cohen add this morning that was really very respectable in which she actually spoke to the camera. Her many anti-Wong adds are a bit too vicious for my taste, though...not necessarily incorrect, but vicious.

Haven't seen any Cohen ads yet. Where do they usually show?

[nmainguy]

Haven't seen any Cohen ads yet. Where do they usually show?

Here's a Wong ad:

And a Cohan ad: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G_1Gwf5ZjNo

[TJones]

I see what you are saying. Just forget the fence idea all together and dig the Rio Grande DEEPER and about a halfmile wider, fill it with Alligators and Crocodiles. That IS a good plan.

[TheNiche]

Haven't seen any Cohen ads yet. Where do they usually show?

I've only caught the respectful ones twice, both times on MSNBC in the morning.

[stolitx]

I see what you are saying. Just forget the fence idea all together and dig the Rio Grande DEEPER and about a halfmile wider, fill it with Alligators and Crocodiles. That IS a good plan.

Best plan I heard so far. And surely cheaper than a stupid fence, yeah people never figure out how to get over a fence.

[Jeebus]

The fence is a stupid idea. There's a reason the Berlin Wall came down.

The Berlin Wall (mentioned twice in this thread) did work - all too well. Politics to reunite two separated peoples of the same nationality brought that wall down - not a failure to maintain the wall.

As for the idea of building a wall today, we have electronic monitoring, cameras with thermal sensors, and more rapid methods of responding to any breaches. The goal isn't to stop EVERY illegal immigrant. The goal is to stop the hemorrhage of illegal immigration down to a slow, more manageable trickle.

Nmain, Tjones & others: If we don't build a wall, what are some other alternatives to help accomplish this?

[TJones]

The Berlin Wall (mentioned twice in this thread) did work - all too well. Politics to reunite two separated peoples of the same nationality brought that wall down - not a failure to maintain the wall.

As for the idea of building a wall today, we have electronic monitoring, cameras with thermal sensors, and more rapid methods of responding to any breaches. The goal isn't to stop EVERY illegal immigrant. The goal is to stop the hemorrhage of illegal immigration down to a slow, more manageable trickle.

Nmain, Tjones & others: If we don't build a wall, what are some other alternatives to help accomplish this?

I agree with the wall either virtual or realized. I still like my "Cross the Rio if you can !" idea.

Edited October 28, 2006 by TJones

[MexAmerican_Moose]

how about building a "Virtual Wall"....track down people that are coming in with satellites or something of that nature...the wall will not work, people will still get through, what a waste of money

[Jeebus]

how about building a "Virtual Wall"....track down people that are coming in with satellites or something of that nature...the wall will not work, people will still get through, what a waste of money

It would be very interesting to see a financial comparison for the cost, maintenance & patroling of a physical wall - versus the cost of maintaining an virtual wall.

[TJones]

It would be very interesting to see a financial comparison for the cost, maintenance & patroling of a physical wall - versus the cost of maintaining an virtual wall.

hmmmmmm, I too would like to see the cost comparison ? Any company but Haliburton can develop it and launch it, so that there won't be any "questions" about it. I think the same should go for the "fence" project, any company BUT Haliburton can bid on it.

[nmainguy]

I see what you are saying. Just forget the fence idea all together and dig the Rio Grande DEEPER and about a halfmile wider, fill it with Alligators and Crocodiles. That IS a good plan.

But what about Mexico's half?

It would be very interesting to see a financial comparison for the cost, maintenance & patroling of a physical wall - versus the cost of maintaining an virtual wall.

It doesn't matter because the bill is toothless without funding. The Republicans just need to throw you guys a bone for the election. Did it work?

[ricco67]

The Berlin Wall (mentioned twice in this thread) did work - all too well. Politics to reunite two separated peoples of the same nationality brought that wall down - not a failure to maintain the wall.

As for the idea of building a wall today, we have electronic monitoring, cameras with thermal sensors, and more rapid methods of responding to any breaches. The goal isn't to stop EVERY illegal immigrant. The goal is to stop the hemorrhage of illegal immigration down to a slow, more manageable trickle.

Nmain, Tjones & others: If we don't build a wall, what are some other alternatives to help accomplish this?

The reason why the Berlin wall was a failure is because ideas flowed beyond the wall. As far as keeping people out (or in, depending on your perspective) it was incredibly effective.

The main trick for a border as challenging as trying to get a pile of ants to get to the moon.

I swam in parts of that river during my summers and believe me, you can easily hide in parts of both banks and be hidden from people no more than 10 feet away. The banks can be heavily wooded and the terrain is fairly rough in some parts. A fence may no be feasible in that section to be ON the border proper, but perhaps a mile in where the terrain can be more easily monitored and easier to get to.

This is going to be the roughest stretch and a great amount of resources on this stretch alone is going to be required to hold back that tide.

I'm sure some minefields would help, though.

[Jeebus]

But what about Mexico's half?

It doesn't matter because the bill is toothless without funding. The Republicans just need to throw you guys a bone for the election. Did it work?

It feels like you were implying that I'm a "neo-con" Republican by the way you said "you guys". I didn't make the statement to discredit one and support the other. I made the statement because I would genuinely like to know which solution is the cheaper of the two.

[TAK]

a wall or fence or whatever divider is not the answer.

when the opportunity in america is 100x the opportunity in mexico, it doesn't matter what is on that border. the pursuit of a better life for one and one's family is going to continue to drive immigration from mexico to the u.s.

people are already DYING trying to cross the border to get from America to Mexico. if DEATH doesn't slow down immigration, what is a fence going to do?

i really do wish "a day without a mexican" would happen... for about a month. that would put an end to this b.s. 'border security' discussion, which has very little to do with 'security', imo.

carry on.

[KinkaidAlum]

Jeebus-

I didn't realize the Berlin Wall was 2,100 miles long like our border with Mexico.

Thanks for teaching me something new.

[Jeebus]

Jeebus-

I didn't realize the Berlin Wall was 2,100 miles long like our border with Mexico.

Thanks for teaching me something new.

Don't be stupid. I never implied that a wall against Mexico would be the same as the Berlin Wall. All I did was point out that the Berlin Wall worked.

Don't make stupid comments based on assumption. I've all read your posts. I know you're smarter than that, and that you are just trying to pick a fight.

EDIT: Per a quick google search, you would learn that the Berlin wall was approximately 96 miles in length with 302 watchtowers - or 1 watch tower every 1678 feet - or 1 approximately every third of a mile.

There, now I've taught you something old.

Edited October 29, 2006 by Jeebus

[nmainguy]

It feels like you were implying that I'm a "neo-con" Republican by the way you said "you guys". I didn't make the statement to discredit one and support the other. I made the statement because I would genuinely like to know which solution is the cheaper of the two.

What's the point? The Republicans only bring up the issue as a scare tactic to garner votes every two years; you guys vote for them and the day after they promptly forget about it in the race to get back to voting against your economic intrests.

So cost isn't an issue since they never intended to fund anything meaningful in the first place. Besides, it may take away from really important projects like the Republican Bridge to Nowhere or the Monument to the Builders of the New Orleans Levees.

[Jeebus]

What's the point? The Republicans only bring up the issue as a scare tactic to garner votes every two years; you guys vote for them and the day after they promptly forget about it in the race to get back to voting against your economic intrests.

So cost isn't an issue since they never intended to fund anything meaningful in the first place. Besides, it may take away from really important projects like the Republican Bridge to Nowhere or the Monument to the Builders of the New Orleans Levees.

Damn, there you go again with the "you guys". You don't know my voting record, so why would you try to lump me in with a certain political party? Again: I just want to know which is ultimately cheaper. a wall of brick, or a virtual wall.