Car-free Main Street?

[kjb434]

I think we have a troll

[MidtownCoog]

I think we have a troll

Don't call pepople trolls.

I got spanked for calling NothingButMeAndMyCaddy a troll.

Of course, he's not a troll. How could I be so wrong?

[hartwell]

I think we have a troll

I DON'T LIVE UNDER A BRIDGE!

[eelimon]

I think we have a troll

What is a troll? is that someone on here only to promote their progects? I am confused.

[ferronsfunctionals]

Why walk when you can sit in 71 degree comfort in your Yukon and drive from one side of Highland Village to the other?

I used to live in Singapore, which feels like Houston in June/July pretty much all year round. Everyone walks around there without complaint. Even with the presence of quite possibly the world's best subway, main drags (such as Orchard Rd.) are always packed with people.

71 degrees - as opposed to 99 degrees - of course......temperature.

As far as Singapore - lets put this into perspective a little bit....do you have any idea why people walk everywhere there? Most people don't own cars. do you know why most people don't own cars - for starters, cost to purchase. Second cost to register. And you know you don't want to piss off the Govt. in Singapore, so I am sure anyone that drives there has their cars registered.

A Toyota Corolla costs over $50,000 USD, and over $15,000 to register.....enough said.

You anti-SUV kooks crack me up!

I used to hate SUVs, too, until I could afford one.

We love ours.

What do you drive? An old Subaru?

SUV's are nice...what is funny though is looking at the Gas total after they leave - I saw one the other day $90 to fill the tank.....NICE...to compound things more people in Houston CHOOSE to live 30 miles away from their jobs. I heard a lady on the radio that said her commute was basically from the Woodlands to Sugarland every day....what a joke....

Drive whatever you want - just don't delicate flower about gas prices because you made the choice to drive what you drive.

I think Houston is in a transitional phase not in it maturity stage of planed mobility. In order for any city to work well commerce must flow and that means transportation needs to flow. Because people want to live in homes out of the city this mean that they will drive in and some other chose to live in town. and this means that they need to go to work as well. before I write you a book on my thoughts about this. Let me just say Houston as a city will continue to work because it will have to develop well with sprawl. you can not have an Urban core without having a suburban plan for transportation, community development, management and so on

the fact that streets are wide has to do with Houston's original plan. When Houston's founding "brothers" came from New York to develop Houston. the downtown grid was drawn then and has not changed too much since then.

there have been several projects downtown that have focused on developing ground level or street level aesthetically pleasing elements like fountains. street lamps, sculptures, intricate details that depict the history of the city and I can keep going on for a while here.

However I won't. the name of the project was: Metropolitan Transportation Plan (or was it: Beautification Project) What ever it was these issues have been address.

[With this project the city of Houston Narrowed portions of some streets (Preston, Congress, Franklin and Commerce just to name a few) Preston even curves to and fro in front of the county records office and before it crosses main st]

But they are not the end-all-project that will correct everything. they were merely steps in the improvement of downtown

I love my SUV too Coog. However I could only afford a Kia Serento

Even without zoning the city of Houston looks much like any other city in the US. Now, there are plenty of exceptions but the good majority of Americans land scape looks like Houston.

the city develops were developers see it fit (profitable). and most of the time through a little research the customers determent < us you and everyone else influence were things get built because developers follow the money

I believe that the developers follow the money...of course. However, cities with zoning help dictate where developers build what types of structures. I am all for a free market society; however, to be honest, I feel like the city of Houston spends 90cents on 60 cents of service and quality, where other cities would spend 100cents for 100 cents of service and quality. Basically, what I am trying to say is the lack of planning and zoning ends up creating situations where repairs and re-construction takes place all too often. In the end, this is wasteful. The property taxes here are outrageous, and so are the assessments. I know I know....Texas doesnt have any state income tax.....but that doesn't really matter because most places have relatively the same sales tax, but the property taxes are 1% instead of 3%. I would be willing to bet that people in Texas pay pretty much as many taxes as many other cities.

I've been to many zoned cities and don't see much difference from Houston.

Also, as long as people can afford to drive an SUV they will. If they can't afford it they'll get rid of it. Most people can still afford to drive it.

Also, aren't oil prices dropping a little.

Oil prices dropping - it is all relative. yes with respect to their highs in the summer; but compared to last year at this time they are significantly higher. Oil is definitely a seasonal commodity, with the Summer being the highest price time of year because of all the travel etc. So, I will say they are dropping if they don't reach $70 next year in the summer.

The bottom line to me is Houston is a city in the midst of a transition, but in 5 years what will it look like? I am not optimistic considering the marginal progress Midtown has made in the last 5+ years. The commercial development is so minimal in some areas of mid-town. The Geographic area inside the loop that is undeveloped, or completely run down is enromous, and the way developers are picking the land to build on doesn't seem very community oriented. Now, I know that developers are out to make money, but considering a house in the Uptown area sells for $200/SF - and they sell, seems like an awfully good indication that if you build something in an area that is established you can get a premium for the structure. Therefore, it seems to me if you were to work on more mixed used communities the area in general would grow and become established much quicker.

[VicMan]

"Why walk when you can sit in 71 degree comfort in your Yukon and drive from one side of Highland Village to the other?

I used to live in Singapore, which feels like Houston in June/July pretty much all year round. Everyone walks around there without complaint. Even with the presence of quite possibly the world's best subway, main drags (such as Orchard Rd.) are always packed with people.

71 degrees - as opposed to 99 degrees - of course......temperature.

As far as Singapore - lets put this into perspective a little bit....do you have any idea why people walk everywhere there? Most people don't own cars. do you know why most people don't own cars - for starters, cost to purchase. Second cost to register. And you know you don't want to piss off the Govt. in Singapore, so I am sure anyone that drives there has their cars registered.

A Toyota Corolla costs over $50,000 USD, and over $15,000 to register.....enough said."

Singapore is so close to the equator, so I don't see how it is "71 degrees" in the summertime. Even so, I want Houston to become more of a walking city. I know, I know, the city is really hot in July or August. Why not establish walking during the other months? When it is really hot:

* Take an umbrella

* Put on deodorant

* Wear light clothing

* Wear sunscreen

* Take a nice, cool drink

"You anti-SUV kooks crack me up!

I used to hate SUVs, too, until I could afford one.

We love ours.

What do you drive? An old Subaru?"

It's not so much that it is an SUV in the first place; It's the lack of fuel efficiency. While I am okay with large cars, at the same time, they ought to be fuel efficient. Since oil is becoming too much of a liability, there should be government standards on fuel efficiency. The automakers should obey us, as this oil thing is going to go out of hand soon.

[eelimon]

I want Houston to become more of a walking city. I know, I know, the city is really hot in July or August. Why not establish walking during the other months? When it is really hot:

How do you purpose to to make the entire city walkable? Remember the city expands over 600 sq miles. Houston needs to establish several "livable villages." Where they can be reached and linked by rail and once you get there you can access every thing by walking. Houston already has several edge cities and other neighborhoods were this can be done:

Downtown

Galleria

Greenway Plaza

Rice Village

The Medical Center

Greens Point

Energy Corridor

Memorial City/ Town and Country

WestChase

Gulfgate

Meyerland

Midtown

Montrose

Heights

[VicMan]

Yes, this is my idea too. There can be several areas which have everything needed for walking.

Other neighborhoods (e.g. West U, Braes Heights) can be "partially walkable", where people can walk as long as they are within the neighborhood and do not have to carry large loads of items (then again, one could somehow buy a shopping cart and use it).

Also there should be the new pedestrian lights with countdown timers and intersections with legal diagonal crossing.

[Montrose1100]

Cars do not have the right of way even when the light is green, the pedestrian is king of the road.plan for Houston. City's got so damned much potential I hate to see it squandered.

Cars don't have right of way Downtown either, the BUSES do!!

[h-townsfinest]

oh i love midtown, never realized it was so dense, great place to walk, nice area, i think main should be car free though, i mean have you seen how small of a space those cars have along the train, the sidewalks are wider than the roads, might as well make the whole thing car free, revolve around the train, but idc what they do, its all good

[TheNiche]

So what happens when driveways and entrances to parking garages are blocked off to make way for a continuous pedestrian/light rail corridor? By state law, an owner of property must have access to it, if necessary granted through his neighbor's property via the most direct and reasonable approach. The law was implemented to handle rural property issues, but what would happen if parking garages with entrances/exits along Main Street were suddenly blocked off? The implications could be scary...I'm not sure, though.

Also, if Main Street became a continuous pedestrian corridor into Midtown, where there are crossings only at major intersections and a disrupted grid everywhere else, then you'd have a lot of dead-end streets turn up throughout the corridor. That would be extremely confusing.

[HoustonianInColorado]

Tulsa, Oklahoma has returned its downtown pedestrian mall to vehicular traffic (although there isn't much of that there at present).

Here in Denver we have a nice setup with the 16th Street Mall. No vehicles except for the free busses that run in one lane each direction to move people from one end of downtown to the other. The busses have no seats, and are just for people standing, and I believe run on natural gas. They run right past the Denver Pavillions shopping center, and the entire mall seems to be quite a nice and thriving place for an urban area. Light rail crosses the mall on Stout and California for people to catch the train, and there are main bus terminals at each end of the mall connnecting people to other routes than just the free mall busses. Works pretty well. Our light rail here is at grade level also, and there have been the occasional collission with a car or truck, but not as often as in Houston I don't believe.

As for Houston's Main St. as a mall...I am not sure about that. The train takes up too much space, and could pose a hazard to pedestrians. As it is though, there is not enough room for cars. They should have elevated or buried the train, IMO.

[TheNiche]

As for Houston's Main St. as a mall...I am not sure about that. The train takes up too much space, and could pose a hazard to pedestrians. As it is though, there is not enough room for cars. They should have elevated or buried the train, IMO.

Yeah, this should have been a discussion (if it weren't already) about two or three years ago.

[editor]

Tulsa, Oklahoma has returned its downtown pedestrian mall to vehicular traffic (although there isn't much of that there at present).

Here in Denver we have a nice setup with the 16th Street Mall. No vehicles except for the free busses that run in one lane each direction to move people from one end of downtown to the other. The busses have no seats, and are just for people standing, and I believe run on natural gas. They run right past the Denver Pavillions shopping center, and the entire mall seems to be quite a nice and thriving place for an urban area. Light rail crosses the mall on Stout and California for people to catch the train, and there are main bus terminals at each end of the mall connnecting people to other routes than just the free mall busses. Works pretty well. Our light rail here is at grade level also, and there have been the occasional collission with a car or truck, but not as often as in Houston I don't believe.

As for Houston's Main St. as a mall...I am not sure about that. The train takes up too much space, and could pose a hazard to pedestrians. As it is though, there is not enough room for cars. They should have elevated or buried the train, IMO.

Chicago did it on State Street in the 80's. The idea was to create a pedestrian mall downtown to compete with the suburban malls, some of which are outdoors (and amazinly successful even in the dead of winter). It only lasted a few years. People hated it, and they eventually brought the cars back. Recently, the Chicago Tribune ranked it as one of the ten biggest blunders in Chicago history.

[Subdude]

A lot of cities tried the pedestrian mall concept back in the 1970s, and in almost every case they were converted back to streets. Denver and South Beach were about the only consistently successful examples. The malls usually tended to drive away business, not attract it. That was one objection I had to "Main Street Square". It seemed they were ignoring the poor track record for that kind of project.

[The Great Hizzy!]

I just read an article on Ybor City in Tampa and they too have re-opened 7th Street (the main drag) to pedestrians on all nights except Saturday night (basically, the same as the Historic District in Houston).

The pedestrian traffic in most cities is almost never enough to really justify the closing of a street to vehicles as a routine and it seems that a lot of people are so trained at walking on sidewalks that they don't bother walking in the street, even if it's closed off to traffic.

Of course, that changes if you have like a Mardi Gras/Super Bowl block party type deal, where the crowds of ridiculously large.

[WesternGulf]

The pedestrian traffic in most cities is almost never enough to really justify the closing of a street to vehicles as a routine and it seems that a lot of people are so trained at walking on sidewalks that they don't bother walking in the street, even if it's closed off to traffic.

Exactly. It reminds me of some of the unrealistic goals displayed on this forum.

[zaphod]

The biggest problem with all this stuff is that in houston there isnt much demand for urban style places. To make the city better you'd first really have to reign in the sprawl. Look at portland. They dont have all the coolness now just because they built it and they came, its because they also put in measures to stop sprawl.

As for pedestrian malls, interesting how the idea tanked. but it makes sense. I think the best option would be to have narrow streets with diagonal parking and wide sidewalks. Cars go slower sense its narrower, and pedestrians are safer, but the overall biggest plus is that with that you can actually park right in front of where you want to go. I think that having good street parking is first to make a difference. since people will be able to get to the shops easier, the shops will do better, and eventually the area will become popular. when that happens people will want to start living closer so they will buy townhomes and take the light rail instead of driving since that would be simpler and boom, you are in a situation where you can start building big huge developments.

As for outdoor ped malls, it makes sense they went under. why drive all the way to the inner city to shop in an mall that is exaclty the same as the malls in the suburbs, only you cant park anywhere.

Really, the only reason why i can see DRIVING going to a mall period is so that you can have a day out shopping under one ROOF(something tells me the indoor mall will rise again)

Of course, i would love to be able to do regular everyday shopping and going out to eat in an urban neighboorhood and not have to worry about driving to a central location like a mall.

[Houston1stWordOnTheMoon]

narrow streets filled with cars parked on the sides and lots of pedestian traffic is a potential receipe for disaster. what happens when emergency vehicles need to get through in a hurry-ambulance-fire etc. also what happens when the area changes in 15 or 20 yrs? need to upgrade or rebuild into something diff. and more useful....narrow streets become a problem. all that stuff is fine in cities that have relegated themselves to stagnating for 100+ yrs. in Houston it isnt a good idea, for this is a forever changing city.

[Subdude]

narrow streets filled with cars parked on the sides and lots of pedestian traffic is a potential receipe for disaster. what happens when emergency vehicles need to get through in a hurry-ambulance-fire etc. also what happens when the area changes in 15 or 20 yrs? need to upgrade or rebuild into something diff. and more useful....narrow streets become a problem. all that stuff is fine in cities that have relegated themselves to stagnating for 100+ yrs. in Houston it isnt a good idea, for this is a forever changing city.

Plenty of cities get by just fine with relatively narrow streets and on-street parking. There's no reason to think it's a "recipe for disaster" as long as the streets are wide enough for emergency vehicles and people follow the rules about yielding to emergency vehicles. I don't think you can create an effective pedestrian zone unless it is designed to emphasize sidewalks, not traffic flow. Zaphod's comment makes great sense:

I think the best option would be to have narrow streets with diagonal parking and wide sidewalks. Cars go slower sense its narrower, and pedestrians are safer, but the overall biggest plus is that with that you can actually park right in front of where you want to go. I think that having good street parking is first to make a difference. since people will be able to get to the shops easier, the shops will do better, and eventually the area will become popular.

[Houston1stWordOnTheMoon]

Plenty of cities get by just fine with relatively narrow streets and on-street parking. There's no reason to think it's a "recipe for disaster" as long as the streets are wide enough for emergency vehicles and people follow the rules about yielding to emergency vehicles. I don't think you can create an effective pedestrian zone unless it is designed to emphasize sidewalks, not traffic flow. Zaphod's comment makes great sense:

Can you tell me which of those plenty cities have changed the landscape of those narrow areas recently and are able to do it frequently without causing a major disruption? Narrow = stagnation.

[TheNiche]

Plenty of cities get by just fine with relatively narrow streets and on-street parking. There's no reason to think it's a "recipe for disaster" as long as the streets are wide enough for emergency vehicles and people follow the rules about yielding to emergency vehicles. I don't think you can create an effective pedestrian zone unless it is designed to emphasize sidewalks, not traffic flow. Zaphod's comment makes great sense:

I personally can't stand on-street parking. Unless its a very-low-traffic side street, the process of parking or unparking always makes my blood pressure shoot upward. And then, if you intend to make a right-hand turn at a corner with a red light and there are a bunch of cars parallel-parked along the street, it can be hard to see around them to verify whether traffic is coming at you and how fast. I'm probably more likely to hit a pedestrian in that kind of setup because I'm so focused on just trying to not get hit by oncoming traffic.

[Subdude]

And then, if you intend to make a right-hand turn at a corner with a red light and there are a bunch of cars parallel-parked along the street, it can be hard to see around them to verify whether traffic is coming at you and how fast.

You do have to be more cautious. Part of the whole point of adding on-street parking is to slow down traffic. If you are careful, there's no reason to expect to hit pedestrians. At least we hope.

also what happens when the area changes in 15 or 20 yrs? need to upgrade or rebuild into something diff. and more useful....narrow streets become a problem. all that stuff is fine in cities that have relegated themselves to stagnating for 100+ yrs. in Houston it isnt a good idea, for this is a forever changing city.

I'm not sure I understand. How does narrowing streets with parking impede future development or alternative uses? Where have narrowed streets led to stagnation?

[TheNiche]

You do have to be more cautious. Part of the whole point of adding on-street parking is to slow down traffic. If you are careful, there's no reason to expect to hit pedestrians. At least we hope.

Hope all you want...I can't speak for most people, but I'm usually in a rush. Extra distractions for drivers are BAD for pedestrians when some segment of the population is of my mindset.

[dbigtex56]

Hope all you want...I can't speak for most people, but I'm usually in a rush. Extra distractions for drivers are BAD for pedestrians when some segment of the population is of my mindset.

Your honesty is refreshing and appreciated. And appalling.

That's the nightmare scenario for pedestrians - the distracted driver who's making a right on red, trying to "goose it" into heavy traffic, usually while balancing a 44oz. drink in his crotch, screaming into the cell phone in one hand, and licking burger grease off the other. Sometimes cigarettes are involved, too. Upon prodding - and I have prodded - most will eventually concede that it's their responsibility to keep an eye out in both directions while making a right on red (and it is) - but it's certainly not a widespread habit among drivers.

For starters, we need to ban eating, drinking, smoking, and the use of cell phones while driving. These are distractions which can end up killing people, and fall into the same category as drunk driving. People do not have a right to endanger others while earning their cardiac tickets to Heaven. Enjoy these persuits in private, not while driving a WMD.

But enough griping. I have what may be a solution to the right-on-red conflict. Maybe I should patent it, it's that good.

(turn up your volume)

When a pedestrian pushes the crossing button, an audio warning to alert drivers would also sound. Something discreet, but effective, like this.

Makes sense, doesn't it?

[sevfiv]

But enough griping. I have what may be a solution to the right-on-red conflict. Maybe I should patent it, it's that good.

(turn up your volume)

When a pedestrian pushes the crossing button, an audio warning to alert drivers would also sound. Something discreet, but effective, like this.

Makes sense, doesn't it?

i *hate* being in hurries, so i try to make sure i am never in one. seems too simple to be true, but it works

[Subdude]

But enough griping. I have what may be a solution to the right-on-red conflict. Maybe I should patent it, it's that good.

(turn up your volume)

When a pedestrian pushes the crossing button, an audio warning to alert drivers would also sound. Something discreet, but effective, like this.

Makes sense, doesn't it?

Pretty funny.

Actually, Houston already has a good example of a pedestrian oriented zone with on-street parking: the Village, especially along Rice Blvd. Rice Village has been a successful retail area for decades, and even with all that distracting and dangerous on-street parking, there doesn't seem to be a major problem with pedestrians being run over.

[TheNiche]

i *hate* being in hurries, so i try to make sure i am never in one. seems too simple to be true, but it works

I'm not wealthy enough not to be in a hurry.

[RedScare]

I'm not wealthy enough not to be in a hurry.

That's interesting. I don't consider myself wealthy enough to BE in a hurry.

[TheNiche]

That's interesting. I don't consider myself wealthy enough to BE in a hurry.

And you never will be with that attitude.