River Oaks/Upper Kirby Real Estate

[millennica]

In NYC you can't buy an "apartment" in a nice highrise no matter what your race or creed unless the owners agree to let you in. Usually no "show business" types are allowed. Also, they interview you and your life becomes an open book. They want to see your financial statements and your references have to be top of the line. It most certainly is discrimination of the worst sort and it is legal.

There are many ways to exclude people from a neighborhood or apartment, some more subtle than others. When the real estate market was booming out here in the SFBay Area, especially in some of the more desirable areas, where there were multiple offers on houses, people would ask those who put in a bid to write a letter describing how they would honor the house and neighborhood, which was factored into the decision about whose offer to accept. Several of my colleagues would discuss how, when asked to write such a letter, they were sure demonstrate their cultural and social capital by including the kind of things they knew would be perceived favorably and get their offer accepted. Given the slow down in the SFBay real estate market, this practice may be out of fashion.

[spikey2]

It is hard to believe that Houston's finest neighborhood is still so backward. Sorry Calikid had such a bad experience. As a Black male who once lived in the Hollywood Hills the racial attitude in Houston is totally different than LA, on the west coast your money, fame or both will take you to wherever you want to be. My friends here find it very hard to believe that thousands of Black homeowners live in Beverly Hills, Bel Air, Brentwood, Malibu, Pacific Palisades, Hancock Park and other areas of La where the homes start at over $2, 000, 000 and they aren't celebrities either. It is even harder for those who never visited the west coast to believe that so call black ghetto areas of LA aren't really all black. Watts and Compton are more than 60% Hispanic, Asian and White, integrated "ghettos" Houston's Finest would just faint!

[VicMan]

Yes but most of the West U kids I know all went to Lamar with me and the River Oaks kids I went to private school in middle school with continued in private school for high school. They don't go to HISD, even with the IB program at Lamar. A few do, but majority are at St. Johns, Kinkaid, etc. Right Kinkaid?

I'm not sure how many RO kids go to Lamar - I've known a few who do/did. My sister's high school best friend and fellow member of the Rangerettes lived in River Oaks. There was also a kid who moved from my neighborhood to RO who went to my high school (No, I didn't go to Lamar).

Edited June 13, 2007 by VicMan

[VicMan]

It is hard to believe that Houston's finest neighborhood is still so backward. Sorry Calikid had such a bad experience. As a Black male who once lived in the Hollywood Hills the racial attitude in Houston is totally different than LA, on the west coast your money, fame or both will take you to wherever you want to be. My friends here find it very hard to believe that thousands of Black homeowners live in Beverly Hills, Bel Air, Brentwood, Malibu, Pacific Palisades, Hancock Park and other areas of La where the homes start at over $2, 000, 000 and they aren't celebrities either. It is even harder for those who never visited the west coast to believe that so call black ghetto areas of LA aren't really all black. Watts and Compton are more than 60% Hispanic, Asian and White, integrated "ghettos" Houston's Finest would just faint!

In 2000, the super neighborhood containing Afton Oaks and River Oaks, 23, had this: http://www.houstontx.gov/planning/nbhd_svc...rInfo/SN_23.htm

* 12,273 Whites

* 1,160 Hispanics

* 390 Asians

* 247 African-Americans

* 189 Two or more races

* 23 Other non-Hispanic races

* 18 Native Americans

* 13 Native Hawaiians

[KinkaidAlum]

Yes but most of the West U kids I know all went to Lamar with me and the River Oaks kids I went to private school in middle school with continued in private school for high school. They don't go to HISD, even with the IB program at Lamar. A few do, but majority are at St. Johns, Kinkaid, etc. Right Kinkaid?

Actually, very few Kinkaid kids lived in River Oaks back in the day. I'd say about 10 people out of our class of 105. Most came from Tanglewood, Briargrove, the Memorial Villages and Briargrove Park.

I grew up in Tanglewood. Most of my siblings went to Lee.

That said, I think River Oaks is way more open to differences than Tanglewood. Sure, there's the old guard around, but it seems like many of my mom's neighbors are not originally from Texas. Her newest neighbors (they move into a builder home next door in a few weeks) are from Mexico City. I have several gay couple friends who live in River Oaks as well. The location can't be beat.

[Vertigo58]

It is hard to believe that Houston's finest neighborhood is still so backward. Sorry Calikid had such a bad experience. As a Black male who once lived in the Hollywood Hills the racial attitude in Houston is totally different than LA, on the west coast your money, fame or both will take you to wherever you want to be. My friends here find it very hard to believe that thousands of Black homeowners live in Beverly Hills, Bel Air, Brentwood, Malibu, Pacific Palisades, Hancock Park and other areas of La where the homes start at over $2, 000, 000 and they aren't celebrities either. It is even harder for those who never visited the west coast to believe that so call black ghetto areas of LA aren't really all black. Watts and Compton are more than 60% Hispanic, Asian and White, integrated "ghettos" Houston's Finest would just faint!

All above is true. When I came back to Houston it was like going back in time. This is why many people split to the west coast in the 1950's and 60's.

[gsutiger2]

It is hard to believe that Houston's finest neighborhood is still so backward. Sorry Calikid had such a bad experience. As a Black male who once lived in the Hollywood Hills the racial attitude in Houston is totally different than LA, on the west coast your money, fame or both will take you to wherever you want to be. My friends here find it very hard to believe that thousands of Black homeowners live in Beverly Hills, Bel Air, Brentwood, Malibu, Pacific Palisades, Hancock Park and other areas of La where the homes start at over $2, 000, 000 and they aren't celebrities either. It is even harder for those who never visited the west coast to believe that so call black ghetto areas of LA aren't really all black. Watts and Compton are more than 60% Hispanic, Asian and White, integrated "ghettos" Houston's Finest would just faint!

I am a California native and totally understand what your saying. People in Houston love to scream about diversity. But I find here, $$ alone wont get you in. That's what I appreciate about Cali. At least if I had the $$ and means to get into a neighborhood, I could. Here, no. And if you do get into a neighborhood you apprantely have "no business in" - It will be a cold reception (I know this for a fact, living it now).

[musicman]

All above is true. When I came back to Houston it was like going back in time. This is why many people split to the west coast in the 1950's and 60's.

the west coast was just as racist as here. brentwood was up in arms when nat cole tried to buy there. and poor sammy davis. whites and blacks went after him. blacks call him a token. i know he even got death threats when he married may britt, a white european actress. blacks were also up in arms when he converted to judaism

Edited June 13, 2007 by musicman

[VicMan]

GSU, what neighborhoods are you trying to get into?

I am a California native and totally understand what your saying. People in Houston love to scream about diversity. But I find here, $$ alone wont get you in. That's what I appreciate about Cali. At least if I had the $$ and means to get into a neighborhood, I could. Here, no. And if you do get into a neighborhood you apprantely have "no business in" - It will be a cold reception (I know this for a fact, living it now).

[Subdude]

How can anyone be kept out of a neighborhood on account of race? I'm not saying there aren't still some prejudiced people, but exclusion by race is obviously illegal, and Houston is diverse enough where I really don't think we can be considered as lagging California or anywhere else in the US. If you ever suspected a real estate agent of acting that way, they should be reported or at the least you should find a new agent. If anything, I always thought that Houston was well-diversified relative to a lot of other cities.

[Vertigo58]

the west coast was just as racist as here. brentwood was up in arms when nat cole tried to buy there. and poor sammy davis. whites and blacks went after him. blacks call him a token. i know he even got death threats when he married may britt, a white european actress. blacks were also up in arms when he converted to judaism

I'll be more clear. I meant W coast was a bit more lenient on people all the way across the board as far as people of color, gender, ethinicity, religion, women's lib, alternative lifestyles, transgender, etc.

I will try to stick to topic but an example would be the beatnik explosion in SFO in late 1950's and of course the hippie movement of the mid sixties. If you were that outspoken in Houston you would have been crucified, called a fruit, castrated, whatever, hence everyone was getting the hell out of old redneck Texas, Lousiana, etc. (old south) and going to the land of liberation (or so it seemed). Peace all flower children!

By the way, I thought that word"token" was considered a very negative slur. Sounds offensive. Oh well, I guess if everyone here is ok with it. Double peace flower children!

Edited June 13, 2007 by Vertigo58

[Highway6]

but exclusion by race is obviously illegal.... If you ever suspected a real estate agent of acting that way....

Is it illegal ? I mean, are the real estate agents only acting on behalf of their clients, the current homeowner. And if I were a current homeowner looking to sell, couldnt I sell to whoever I wanted to and exclude whoever I wanted to.

If it were an effort by the real estate industy to keep blacks out of that market.. yes, that would be illegal.

But, it's basically alot of individual homeowner making decisions on who they rather sell and who they rather not sell to based on their notion of what they want their neighborhood to remain. Are those notions racist.. sure. But is that illegal.. for an individual to use race as a factor to decide who they want to sell their private property to ??

I'm not questioning if it's right to be selling your home based on race, obviously it isnt, Im just questioning if its in fact illegal

[KatieDidIt]

Actually, very few Kinkaid kids lived in River Oaks back in the day. I'd say about 10 people out of our class of 105. Most came from Tanglewood, Briargrove, the Memorial Villages and Briargrove Park.

I grew up in Tanglewood. Most of my siblings went to Lee.

That said, I think River Oaks is way more open to differences than Tanglewood. Sure, there's the old guard around, but it seems like many of my mom's neighbors are not originally from Texas. Her newest neighbors (they move into a builder home next door in a few weeks) are from Mexico City. I have several gay couple friends who live in River Oaks as well. The location can't be beat.

Tanglewood is a tough crowd. They barely talk to each other much less an "outsider." Trying to get into the Houston Country Club is like getting into Ft. Knox. If you aren't third generation, wealthy Houstonian, you don't have a chance. River Oaks has always been more excepting of new people and of new wealth.

There are Mexican Nationals and Latin Americans moving into the Tanglewood Blvd section now. They don't care if they are wanted or not. There is a lot of eye rolling from the natives, but the nationals generally throw up a gate and security cameras and keep to themselves. So they seem to be co-exiting without too much animosity.

The association bi-laws are a hoot to read though. Unchanged since the 60's.....

Edited June 13, 2007 by KatieDidIt

[KinkaidAlum]

Tanglewood is a tough crowd. They barely talk to eat other much less an "outsider." Trying to get into the Houston Country Club is like getting into Ft. Knox. If you aren't third generation, wealthy Houstonian, you don't have a chance. River Oaks has always been more excepting of new people and of new wealth.

There are Mexican Nationals and Latin Americans moving into the Tanglewood Blvd section now. They don't care if they are wanted or not. There is a lot of eye rolling from the natives, but the nationals generally throw up a gate and security cameras and keep to themselves. So they seem to be co-exiting without too much animosity.

The association bi-laws are a hoot to read though. Unchanged since the 60's.....

I totally agree about Tanglewood and The Houston Country Club compared to River Oaks and the R.O.C.C.

In 1978, when my parents divorced, my mother was kicked out of the Houston C.C. because single women were not allowed! My dad was allowed to stay a member. This despite the fact that my maternal grandparents had been members of HCC for 50 plus years and had been the original sponsors for my folks. Additionally, my paternal grandmother was never allowed to join the HCC because she had been divorced even though she was remarried. ROCC didn't have those same restrictions so she joined there. What's really funny is that the grandparents who were not allowed into the HCC were Mastersons!

In the late 1980s, my mom received a phone call from HCC asking her to come back. The policies had finally changed allowing recently divorced mothers to retain their memberships. My mom politely told them where they could go.

[KatieDidIt]

I totally agree about Tanglewood and The Houston Country Club compared to River Oaks and the R.O.C.C.

In 1978, when my parents divorced, my mother was kicked out of the Houston C.C. because single women were not allowed! My dad was allowed to stay a member. This despite the fact that my maternal grandparents had been members of HCC for 50 plus years and had been the original sponsors for my folks. Additionally, my paternal grandmother was never allowed to join the HCC because she had been divorced even though she was remarried. ROCC didn't have those same restrictions so she joined there. What's really funny is that the grandparents who were not allowed into the HCC were Mastersons!

In the late 1980s, my mom received a phone call from HCC asking her to come back. The policies had finally changed allowing recently divorced mothers to retain their memberships. My mom politely told them where they could go.

We joined Lakeside. Its a great, young club. It has some of its own hangups but in general you can join if you are from a good family from Houston or outside Houston. Its much more socially laid back that both HCC and ROCC.

[musicman]

By the way, I thought that word"token" was considered a very negative slur. Sounds offensive. Oh well, I guess if everyone here is ok with it.

that's my point. he was getting it from blacks and whites.

[millennica]

Is it illegal ? I mean, are the real estate agents only acting on behalf of their clients, the current homeowner. And if I were a current homeowner looking to sell, couldnt I sell to whoever I wanted to and exclude whoever I wanted to.

If it were an effort by the real estate industy to keep blacks out of that market.. yes, that would be illegal.

But, it's basically alot of individual homeowner making decisions on who they rather sell and who they rather not sell to based on their notion of what they want their neighborhood to remain. Are those notions racist.. sure. But is that illegal.. for an individual to use race as a factor to decide who they want to sell their private property to ??

I'm not questioning if it's right to be selling your home based on race, obviously it isnt, Im just questioning if its in fact illegal

Even though it is illegal to exclude people from neighborhoods on the basis of race, there are kinds of subtle ways to keep certainpeople from purchasing a house in a neighborhood. The example I gave in post #66 in the SFBay Area of having people write a letter explaining how they would honor the house and neighborhood is an example. Ostensibly, the process is neutral with race/class/social position playing no factor in the decision, but I think this process is simply a more subtle and sophisticated (and likely not illegal) way of excluding people from the neighborhood.

And some suggest pushing the envelope and forcing the change, which is indeed possible. ometimes folks simply tire of fighting the racism to get what they are entitled to and decide it simply isn't worth the aggravation. Having been in situations of this sort, I have sometimes decided that a particular battle wasn't worth fighting and it was better to walk away.

[Highway6]

Even though it is illegal to exclude people from neighborhoods on the basis of race.......

I guess I'm breaking it down beyond neighborhood to the individual.

As an idividual selling my home... if I decided I only wanted to sell my home to someone of the same wealth, someone the same ethnicity as me, someone who went to the same university as me, someone of the same denomination.... etc.

As an individual, wouldn't it be my perogative to sell to whoever I wanted to an exclude whoever I wanted to from buying what it is I'm selling.

Would it be illegal for me not sell you my home becasue you arent ________ enough for my liking and instead sell my home to someone else.

Now if you have a collection of like-minded individuals that all do this......

Wrong, yes, but i just dont quite see how it's illegal.

------------

What if the residents of 4th ward or 3rd ward got together and decided they've had enough of gentirifcation and losing their neighborhoods to townhomes.

If each individual there decided... "no, I'm not going to sell my home to a developer becasue I want to preserve my neighborhood as is".... which, "preserving our neighborhood" is also a decision based on race and would be the exact same thing R.O. is doing.

They, as a collection of individuals, could stop gentirifcation and preserve their neighborhoods, if each individual decided they would be more selective who they sold too... Would that too be illegal if they succeeded..course not.

Edited June 13, 2007 by Highway6

[millennica]

I guess I'm breaking it down beyond neighborhood to the individual.

As an idividual selling my home... if I decided I only wanted to sell my home to someone of the same wealth, someone the same ethnicity as me, someone who went to the same university as me, someone of the same denomination.... etc.

As an individual, wouldn't it be my perogative to sell to whoever I wanted to an exclude whoever I wanted to from buying what it is I'm selling.

Would it be illegal for me not sell you my home becasue you arent ________ enough for my liking and instead sell my home to someone else.

Now if you have a collection of like-minded individuals that all do this......

Wrong, yes, but i just dont quite see how it's illegal.

The example I gave of having potential buyers write a letter explaining how they will honor the house is a process that suggests that people do make decisions on the basis of shared experiences whether these be working or having attended the same university, same wealth, class background, professional status, religious or racial background. According to the equal housing law, it is illegal to discriminate against someone on the basis of religion or race. I am not a lawyer, so I'm not in a position to offer an informed comment on the law and I have no interest in debating whether particular behaviors are illegal. Because even such actions were illegal, they probably would be difficult to prove in court (maybe RedScare can weigh in here) The reason I provided the example in the first place, was only to say that even when particular actions taken may not be illegal, they still have the same force: excluding certain people from neighborhoods, jobs, schools...

[PapillionWyngs]

For a history on Riverside you need to see if you can view the documentary This is our home, It is not for sale. Talks about racism, white/jewish flight, and the exploitation by realtors and developers. Made in the late 80's, it is still very much relevant today.

It has been on TV before and either Rice or the MFA have screened it recently.

I lived through that. We had three families that were our best friends, and they all lived on Laurel Drive. The widower HAD to live in a home designed by a famous architect, because in the middle of the house was a glass room. It wasn't an atrium, just a round room, made of clear glass. It had a "conversation pit" and a bar in it - and it was my favorite room (not for the bar, because I was in elementary school.

The man who owned it was George Gartner - and he owned an equipment company. I wonder if it is still there today? The one that I LOVED next door, another family friend, was demolished and McMansioned.

We would go visit them, and they had the signs in their yards, and so did their neighbors. I remember we were at Dr. Oliver's house, and someone knocked on the door and asked him if he wanted to sell his home for twice the market value. He said no. They said, "it's because I'm black, and he said "no - I love this house, I raised my children in this house, and I plan on living here another 20 years, then moving to Conroe. He did.

A lot of the signs were just to keep people from constantly bothering the owners who didn't want to sell - not because the buyers were black - he stayed there after the "block was busted" - that's what they called it - and I asked them was it the street that was broken, or what - I didn't see anything but new neighbors. But these people loved it there, and wanted to stay. A lot of them weren't racist, and they stayed. Some were. But it was the most beautiful area I have ever seen - excluding part of River Oaks (the part near the CC).

[spikey2]

The neighborhood that Nat King Cole moved into in the late 1940's and had his Home bombed was Hancock Park, which was LA's "River Oaks" everyone who was anyone lived here "showbiz" folks weren't allowed no matter what color.Today Hancock Park is a racially mixed very rich area. It's list of famous home owners included at one time Muhammad Ali, Lou Rawls, Melanie Griffin (Still Lives Here) ,the estate of the Annenberg family is the official home of the Mayor of LA and a long list of stars who prefer it's New England and Traditional styled Mansions to the overdone Mansions on the West side live quietly here.It is next to Korean Town and the Miracle Mile starts in the neighborhood. Sammy Davis lived in Beverly Hills right next to Mary Picksford's "Pick fair" which was bought and destroyed by Pia Zodora. The neighbors welcomed him and he had no problems, it was only his lifestyle that raised eyebrows. The infamous OJ lived in Brentwood right down the street from Phyllis Diller and Roseanne Barr

[Highway6]

According to the equal housing law, it is illegal to discriminate against someone on the basis of religion or race.

Does that apply to individual homesellers though ? Or does that just apply to businesses selling - prop. developers, apts., condos. etc.

The reason I provided the example in the first place, was only to say that even when particular actions taken may not be illegal, they still have the same force: excluding certain people from neighborhoods, jobs, schools...

I agree.. I'm just wondering legally, how hard would it be to come after an individul that did discriminate in deciding which of many perspective buyers he chooses to sell to.

Edited June 13, 2007 by Highway6

[millennica]

Does that apply to individual homesellers though ? Or does that just apply to businesses selling - prop. developers, apts., condos. etc.

I agree.. I'm just wondering legally, how hard would it be to come after an individul that did discriminate in deciding which of many perspective buyers he chooses to sell to.

I am fairly sure that the Fair Housing Acts applies to everyone--individuals as well as businesses that rent apartments and condo.You can read more about the law by going to the following website.

<http://www.hud.gov/offices/fheo/FHLaws/yourrights.cfm>

I know a person would have to prove that the individual seller discriminated against her/him. How hard would that be to prove? I guess it depends on the facts of the case and whether or not you have a good lawyer. I know that people do win housing discrimination cases.

I am also aware of test studies conducted to determine whether sellers are using race to discriminate. These often consist of individuals or couple being sent out to try and rent an apartment. Each individual/couple is given the same profile--job, earnings, savings, and other issues related to renting an apartment, with the exception that some of the individuals and couples are African American and some white. The purpose of these test studies is to see if the individuals/couples with the same profile but of different racial backgrounds are treated differently. I also have a colleague formerly at Stanford, but now at Wash U-St. Louis, who conducted sociolinguistic test studies to see how landlords respond to people calling who sound like they may be African American compared to those who sound white. This may surprise you, but there is quite a bit of evidence that people make judgements on the basis of whether people sound Black or white. That, however, is much longer discussion that is beyond this one.

[KatieDidIt]

Honestly if you are playing the real estate game these days, whomever writes the biggest check wins. I don't care if I was living in a BLVD home, where the neighbors want to keep everything "the same."

Snoop Dog writes me a check for 4 million, Snoop gets the house............I'm moving anyway

[musicman]

Does that apply to individual homesellers though ? Or does that just apply to businesses selling - prop. developers, apts., condos. etc.

of course it does. if it isn't blatant, many times it is hard to prove. you have that gut feeling that you know they are but can't prove it.

[millennica]

Honestly if you are playing the real estate game these days, whomever writes the biggest check wins. I don't care if I was living in a BLVD home, where the neighbors want to keep everything "the same."

Snoop Dog writes me a check for 4 million, Snoop gets the house............I'm moving anyway

Very practical, especially considering you're trying to sell your house in The Woodlands. I agree with Musicman; post some pictures of your house as I'd love to see them. Although I'm looking to buy a house in Houston, from everything I've read on this and other message boards, I don't see living in the Woodlands in my future. Good luck selling your house.

[The New Juniper]

It is my opinion that race is not a factor at all when moving into River Oaks. Rather, it is whether or not the surrounding residents deem you "worthy" of living there. I have not ever seen anything like it. Black/white/asian doesn't matter. It is how much money you have, and more importantly, where did you get it?

Deed restrictions commonly say "no non-whites", but all have been revised over the years. The fact that the restrictions existed is shameful, but every neighborhood in Houston has moved on. River Oaks is a great for many reasons. Location and size of lots being the two that jump out at me the most. However, a more judgmental group of people you will never find.

[nativehou]

It is my opinion that race is not a factor at all when moving into River Oaks. Rather, it is whether or not the surrounding residents deem you "worthy" of living there.

The unfortunate reality is that race enters into that assessment for some people.

[gsutiger2]

GSU, what neighborhoods are you trying to get into?

It is a older neighborhood that is growing in popularity.

The unfortunate reality is that race enters into that assessment for some people.

More than some really care to believe.

[calikid]

In response to some of the questions concerning my bad experience trying to buy a home in River Oaks. My wife and I confronted the agent . She of coursed denied any wrong doing, Her response was she was doing us a favor trying to find us the best home possible and she felt that we were limiting ourselves by not looking in other areas. At this moment we informed her we needed to find another agent. We found a wonderful agent and continued to look in the area, but after meeting some of the residents we both decided on a new home in an integrated area with great schools and a better class of neighbors. In our new community there are many mixed couples. There is also a great mix of professionals ranging from Doctors, Athletes and several local TV personalities.It reminds us a lot of our old "WE HO" , I can actually stand on my lawn and chat with a famous footballer before Sunday's game or wave across the street to a well know local TV star. Our kids play together and no one cares who mommy and daddy are. I think we made the right decision to move here. We are helping set the new standard of acceptance, not trying to conserve the old enclave. This was my first experience with prejudice and it was an eye opener, it was so smooth and gentle you didn't know what was coming your way until it hit you. But We still love Houston and things can only change for the better!