Ideas for commuter rail stops

[wxman]

Well the line to Greenspoint and points N. (Spring, The Woodlands, Conroe) would be good for U of H students. It's safer for one and relieves traffic on the freeway...even if it is just a handful of cars.

I was just thinking that...don't you think METRO's ridership would jump if they would run the darn buses and trains through the better parts of town? Hobo's aren't the only ones that need transportation. Especially the way gas is going. Not to mention the thought of riding a train to work would influence people enough to catch a ride. I know when the lightrail opened from DT to the Med Center, we parked DT and rode it to the Med Center to go to the Museum of Natural Science. I strongly believe other people would do the same because it's a "train."

[VicMan]

I was just thinking that...don't you think METRO's ridership would jump if they would run the darn buses and trains through the better parts of town? Hobo's aren't the only ones that need transportation. Especially the way gas is going. Not to mention the thought of riding a train to work would influence people enough to catch a ride. I know when the lightrail opened from DT to the Med Center, we parked DT and rode it to the Med Center to go to the Museum of Natural Science. I strongly believe other people would do the same because it's a "train."

Yeah, I'm in favor of extending buses through perhaps more parts of Spring Branch, the westside, Kingwood, and the Clear Lake area.

Much of central Houston, even the rich areas (i.e. River Oaks, West U) already has bus service

[MidtownCoog]

That's way too many stops for commuter rail, Mr. Vic.

Six stops from Roseberg? As if!

[VicMan]

That's way too many stops for commuter rail, Mr. Vic.

Six stops from Roseberg? As if!

Which stops do you feel should be eliminated from the Fort Bend list?

Do you feel Stafford and Westbury should not get stops?

[marc]

^^^^ I don't see much regarding the West Side, i.e. Katy area and the Energy Corridor. No commuter rail for them?

Especially from the newer communities to the Energy Corridor and Memorial City area.

m.

[VicMan]

^^^^ I don't see much regarding the West Side, i.e. Katy area and the Energy Corridor. No commuter rail for them?

Especially from the newer communities to the Energy Corridor and Memorial City area.

m.

To get surface rail over there, we would have to demolish some homes and businesses - which may not sit well with some people.

If only people had the will to put up a subway for the westside...

[marc]

To get surface rail over there, we would have to demolish some homes and businesses - which may not sit well with some people.

If only people had the will to put up a subway for the westside...

Good point.

I wish they would have included (at least the space for future use) a commuter rail line to go down the middle of the massive Katy Freeway Monster being built. You are right- they have made it virtually impossible to place one on that side without getting rid of existing buildings.

I wonder if one could go down Richmond to connect somewhere near the SH and Westpark Tollways and run up to Memorial City area.

m.

^^^ Also, about a subway. I think Houston could not build a subway because of its clay and close to the surface water table.

I read when they were building One Shell Plaza that they had to have water pumps in the lower levels when building the basement. I would think it would cost so much more to build an underground line in Houston than an above ground one.

What do you think?

m.

[mojeaux131]

I can't wait for something like this to really happen. Our freeway system has failed in practice of its original function. The National Highway Act of 1956 provided funds, etc. for a national freeway network to be constructed, for what Eisenhower said was evacuation of population centers in times of crisis. Well, after my 4 hour long sojourn from UH to The Wood last year (running from Rita like everyone else), it became even more obvious to me that more options are needed.

I'm currently living in Japan and I can tell you that trains are a fantastic way to get around. For those folks who like to whine about costs of rail development, I would ask them what the costs are to a major city that lacks an effective way for travelers to get around sans automobile. What are the costs to the city and region of drunken driving? How many people would forgo even contemplating drinking and driving if there were more options besides more dadgum cars and freeways?

I was in Tokyo on business for the last three days, and today I took the shinkansen from Tokyo to Nagoya, and then from Nagoya to my home on the peninsula. The entire trip took about three hours. Does this mean that in addition to my support for enhanced rail options in the Houston area that I also support the development of an American shinkansen for expedited interregional travel? Why, yes. Yes it does.

Oyasumi nasai!

[Houston19514]

I can't wait for something like this to really happen. Our freeway system has failed in practice of its original function. The National Highway Act of 1956 provided funds, etc. for a national freeway network to be constructed, for what Eisenhower said was evacuation of population centers in times of crisis. Well, after my 4 hour long sojourn from UH to The Wood last year (running from Rita like everyone else), it became even more obvious to me that more options are needed.

You are seriously overstating the "failure" of the freeway systems "in practice of its original function." Imagine just for a moment what that evacuation would have been like without the freeway and interstate systems and I think you'll see my point. And rail is not a good substitute for evacuation, although it could add a little (very little) bit of additional capacity at the margins.

[TheNiche]

You are seriously overstating the "failure" of the freeway systems "in practice of its original function." Imagine just for a moment what that evacuation would have been like without the freeway and interstate systems and I think you'll see my point. And rail is not a good substitute for evacuation, although it could add a little (very little) bit of additional capacity at the margins.

On the one hand, Corrigan, TX, provides a perfect example of where there is a single stop sign on US 59 that held up evacuation. An interstate bypass could've come very much in handy right there.

On the other hand, relatively few people consider any evacuation routes other than interstates anymore because they're just so foolproof. You can't get lost on them, and many people would rather endure hours upon hours of waiting in line than take the chance that they might take a wrong turn. By staying off the interstates and other major highways until La Grange, I got from west Houston to Austin in four hours. It made me wonder to what extent interstates induce an idiocy factor among people that don't know how to read a map that acts as an externality on society.

[marc]

It made me wonder to what extent interstates induce an idiocy factor among people that don't know how to read a map that acts as an externality on society.

Well, yeah. Unfortunately, we will always have that factor to contend with.

m.

[RedScare]

Good point.

I wish they would have included (at least the space for future use) a commuter rail line to go down the middle of the massive Katy Freeway Monster being built. You are right- they have made it virtually impossible to place one on that side without getting rid of existing buildings.

I wonder if one could go down Richmond to connect somewhere near the SH and Westpark Tollways and run up to Memorial City area.

m.

^^^ Also, about a subway. I think Houston could not build a subway because of its clay and close to the surface water table.

I read when they were building One Shell Plaza that they had to have water pumps in the lower levels when building the basement. I would think it would cost so much more to build an underground line in Houston than an above ground one.

What do you think?

m.

I think there are tunnels under rivers, channels and bays worldwide that prove your theory incorrect.

As for the John Culberson Memorial Parking Lot, known informally as the Katy Freeway, while it is indeed a shame that no room for commuter rail was engineered into the roadway, that does not mean no rail can go to Katy, IF commute patterns warrant it. Westpark runs a straight line to the south of Barker Resevoir, and the Hempstead highway runs northwest. At a certain point, a spur could leave the hempstead corridor and run across Addicks Resevoir, parallel to Clay Road.

A more likely scenario may include light rail to Beltway 8, and just continue to run park&ride busses on the Katy. I suspect the less expensive and least served areas would get rail before Katy ever does. Basically, they had their chance and blew it. Remember, this is THEIR Congressman that kept the rail ROW out of the Katy, not METRO.

[Trae]

Isn't there room along the Westpark Tollway for a commuter rail line? I heard that one of the reason's why the tollway was built so small was because commuter rail could be added along the sides.

If the Katy Freeway had a commuter rail line down the middle instead of the tollway lanes, it would be packed every morning and afternoon, no doubt. With stops at the Grand Parkway, Fry Road, Park 10/Highway 6, Gessner, then Silber.

[musicman]

As for the John Culberson Memorial Parking Lot, known informally as the Katy Freeway, while it is indeed a shame that no room for commuter rail was engineered into the roadway

no single train line can solve the traffic issue on the Katy Freeway. expansion was inevitable due to the fact that, besides the added HOV lane, it was basically in its original config. unless some other means of transportation has been developed, we have to optimize where we can to benefit the most.

[marc]

I think there are tunnels under rivers, channels and bays worldwide that prove your theory incorrect.

As for the John Culberson Memorial Parking Lot, known informally as the Katy Freeway, while it is indeed a shame that no room for commuter rail was engineered into the roadway, that does not mean no rail can go to Katy, IF commute patterns warrant it. Westpark runs a straight line to the south of Barker Resevoir, and the Hempstead highway runs northwest. At a certain point, a spur could leave the hempstead corridor and run across Addicks Resevoir, parallel to Clay Road.

A more likely scenario may include light rail to Beltway 8, and just continue to run park&ride busses on the Katy. I suspect the less expensive and least served areas would get rail before Katy ever does. Basically, they had their chance and blew it. Remember, this is THEIR Congressman that kept the rail ROW out of the Katy, not METRO.

I was wondering if it would make the cost enormous (more than feasible) to counteract the soft clay for a subway.

I do understand that subways have been built under waterways, BUT, are those located in mostly rocky areas?

For instance, my brother owns a pool business and said that Houstonians cannot/shouldn't completely empty their pools during the off season because the pool would literally pop right out of the ground due to its softness and lack of rocky substance.

I just assumed this would apply to something being dug into the ground unless there was to be massive engineering support.

At this point, would it be feasible? Make sense?

True about the alternative rail line route. I didn't even think of the Addicks Resevoir area.

And i didn't realize the politics involved concerning the Katy Freeway and area.

Thanks for the info.

m.

[Trae]

Concrete wouldn't help with a subway in Houston? I am sure the farther west and north you go, the better.

[marc]

Isn't there room along the Westpark Tollway for a commuter rail line? I heard that one of the reason's why the tollway was built so small was because commuter rail could be added along the sides.

If the Katy Freeway had a commuter rail line down the middle instead of the tollway lanes, it would be packed every morning and afternoon, no doubt. With stops at the Grand Parkway, Fry Road, Park 10/Highway 6, Gessner, then Silber.

One would hope, Trae. One would hope. It sounds very feasible and practical to me considering all the press that area has been getting the last couple of years. i know as far as business hot spots in Houston, not much is hotter than the Energy Corridor. Red Scare has a point regarding the politics of it all. Too bad.

I feel that like LA, Houston is massive enough and diverse enough to embrace both mass transit and personal transit concepts.

BUT, unfortunately, in Oil City USA, it seems an either/or mentality prevails.

m.

[Houston19514]

BUT, unfortunately, in Oil City USA, it seems an either/or mentality prevails.

m.

I guess that explains the Billion Dollar plus Metro Solutions rail plan currently under development and the feasability studies being conducted regarding commuter rail in all directions.

[marc]

I guess that explains the Billion Dollar plus Metro Solutions rail plan currently under development and the feasability studies being conducted regarding commuter rail in all directions.

Yes, but you do have to admit, it was some time coming. And the idea does persist. Just look at many of these threads. People would argue to the "death" for the either/or position. Don't misunderstand me, i am all for mass transit.

I live in LA and haven't driven my car since January. (actually, i am selling it currently) I love it. It saves me $$$ on the outrageous gas prices, helps protect the environment, keeps me in shape walking to and from the stations and helps me actually really see more of the city and citizenry. BUT, i also am aware that a city such as Houston, being so spread out, must also have superb highways and such. Plus, not everyone has a lifestyle like mine where mass transit is practical.

I am glad that mass transit (specifically a light rail system) is getting the attention i feel it deserves. My point is that it is long overdue. To me, these should have been considerations back when OPEC took control of the oil market. Make sense?

m.

[VicMan]

Hey, since I heard that a Westpark rail can get to Katy, here's an idea for a next line:

* Downtown

* Greenway Plaza/West University Place

* Uptown Houston

* Westchase/Alief

* Katy/Cinco Ranch

* Brookshire

* Sealy

I envision METRO as both providing local transportation in Houston and regional transportation from outlying areas in SE Texas to Houston, almost in a similar fashion as JR East in Japan.

[musicman]

Hey, since I heard that a Westpark rail can get to Katy, here's an idea for a next line:

* Downtown

* Greenway Plaza/West University Place

* Uptown Houston

* Westchase/Alief

* Katy/Cinco Ranch

* Brookshire

* Sealy

I envision METRO as both providing local transportation in Houston and regional transportation from outlying areas in SE Texas to Houston, almost in a similar fashion as JR East in Japan.

Vic where are the commuter rail tracks from downtown to greenway? to west u? to uptown? to westchase?....i haven't been farther out in a while so i'll stop there. the handwaving is nice, but at the same time we have to be realistic.

[VicMan]

Vic where are the commuter rail tracks from downtown to greenway? to west u? to uptown? to westchase?....i haven't been farther out in a while so i'll stop there. the handwaving is nice, but at the same time we have to be realistic.

The train tracks along Westpark at least go up to the River Oaks Car Dealership (So, it is possible to have actual rail stops at West U and Uptown, and further out) - But, I am not exactly sure on how to link this to Downtown.

EDIT: Hmm... I wonder if the tracks at Westpark still exist - If you do not mind, I'll look at this....

[nmainguy]

I wish they would have included (at least the space for future use) a commuter rail line to go down the middle of the massive Katy Freeway Monster being built. You are right- they have made it virtually impossible to place one on that side without getting rid of existing buildings.

And yet existing properties were condemned for the newly widened Katy. In addition the RR ROW which ran from Katy to 610 was destroyed only to be replaced by more lanes of freeway. On a side note, I find it amazingly hypocritical that so many here and elsewhere screamed like stuck pigs when people advocated an all Richmond route for the U Line because of possible-CONDEMNATION!!! You can thank Culberson and his short-sighted supporters here at HAIF and elsewhere for a possibly cancelled west leg of the U Line.

Also, about a subway. I think Houston could not build a subway because of its clay and close to the surface water table.

That is a myth perpetuated by the same short sighted, provincial attitude displayed by the above mentioned. Have you ever been to Amsterdam? It makes Houston look like it was built on the Rockies.

[VicMan]

No, there are no tracks along Westpark inside the Loop.

However, I wonder if commuter rail could run to the terminus of the area for Westpark rail (I'm not sure where it would begin) and connect with light rail?

If rail could be connected along the tollway to an area near Uptown, perhaps a light rail connection could occur there.

[musicman]

No, there are no tracks along Westpark inside the Loop.

However, I wonder if commuter rail could run to the terminus of the area for Westpark rail (I'm not sure where it would begin) and connect with light rail?

now we're back to reality. There is no rail to work with in the inner loop area you mentioned. connecting with the existing system is the only way to go.

[ricco67]

To get surface rail over there, we would have to demolish some homes and businesses - which may not sit well with some people.

If only people had the will to put up a subway for the westside...

Concrete wouldn't help with a subway in Houston? I am sure the farther west and north you go, the better.

I can't see why the "theoretical" route can't work with a subway line following (underneath) the Katy (and potentially other) freeways.

Trae is correct that the further west and north you get (and southwest past the loop) tunneling wouldn't be that much of an issue.

In danger of repeating myself (which I am, probably), I think as the light rail numbers increase, we can get more funding as time goes along. The numbers would be appropriate within a few years after phase two is complete, but I don't know if it will be in my lifetime that I will see a true subway in Houston, but it is a good possibility that it will happen.

[musicman]

The numbers would be appropriate within a few years after phase two is complete, but I don't know if it will be in my lifetime that I will see a true subway in Houston, but it is a good possibility that it will happen.

IMO the numbers for the next segments will be significantly lower than the main street line because much of the forced ridership won't be possible like it was routing traffic from UHD to the dome.

[nmainguy]

IMO the numbers for the next segments will be significantly lower than the main street line because much of the forced ridership won't be possible like it was routing traffic from UHD to the dome.

A few MD techs and nurses I know jump on the #9 every morning 5, 6 and 7 days a week from Independence Heights to UHD and then switch to the Red Line to the TMC. I used to hop on at E.27th when I became unable to fend for myself via my car or bike. I got to ride with a couple of them and then walk with them to MD. God forbid you should ever have the need for a transportation system and riders that deliver you to life-saving treatment. So never mind the cost of trying to find and pay for a parking place if you are a patient or employee. A stress free annual pass or two dollar fare is far more attractive.

In addition, your uninformed opinion regarding "forced ridership" couldn't garner a more loaded, empty, calous and unsubstansiated post.

[musicman]

In addition, your uninformed opinion regarding "forced ridership" couldn't garner a more loaded, empty, calous and unsubstansiated post.

your uninformed opinion is not substantiated either. i didn't say ridership would be zero as you're implying. even METRO's own numbers show a simlar ridership as there is now (some in the 5000 range). your examples are all current riders and i agree they will still be riding which supports my statement. BTW if someone needs "life-saving" treatment, do them a favor and call METRO lift. they'll take you door to door.

[VicMan]

now we're back to reality. There is no rail to work with in the inner loop area you mentioned. connecting with the existing system is the only way to go.

Now, do you mind if I show you a map of somewhat-near-futurish rail service stops, and you can comment on which stops are reasonable given current rail tracks in the city of Houston? If you want, I can upload it to a Photobucket account and show it here