Ideas for commuter rail stops

[musicman]

Now, do you mind if I show you a map of somewhat-near-futurish rail service stops, and you can comment on which stops are reasonable given current rail tracks in the city of Houston? If you want, I can upload it to a Photobucket account and show it here

sure! with freight traffic increasing due to rising gas prices, commuter line development may become more difficult.

[nmainguy]

if someone needs "life-saving" treatment, do them a favor and call METRO lift. they'll take you door to door.

You completly missed the point. No surprise there. You remind me of a spinning top: Always spinning around franticly, but not going anywhere.

[musicman]

Always spinning around franticly, but not going anywhere.

ironically like you're avatar.

[Trae]

That is a myth perpetuated by the same short sighted, provincial attitude displayed by the above mentioned. Have you ever been to Amsterdam? It makes Houston look like it was built on the Rockies.

Yeah, Amsterdam has subways, and the city is on the same type of terrain (even worse) than us. Houston could do it.

I can't see why the "theoretical" route can't work with a subway line following (underneath) the Katy (and potentially other) freeways.

Trae is correct that the further west and north you get (and southwest past the loop) tunneling wouldn't be that much of an issue.

In danger of repeating myself (which I am, probably), I think as the light rail numbers increase, we can get more funding as time goes along. The numbers would be appropriate within a few years after phase two is complete, but I don't know if it will be in my lifetime that I will see a true subway in Houston, but it is a good possibility that it will happen.

After the Uptown LRT (hopefully it is LRT) goes to San Felipe, I would subway it from San Felipe, past Uptown Park, under I-610, then have a stop at the Northwest Transit Center. After that, it would come up at North Post Oak road, then end at Northwest Mall. I have seen METRO's plans, and they have the BRT going onto I-610. That won't work.

[VicMan]

Here, kids: http://i143.photobucket.com/albums/r129/Vi...muterPlan-1.png

1. I am not sure how far the line to Columbus should go. Should it go to San Antonio? (To link with VIA, San Antonio's rail system)

2. Ellington Field does not have to be on-site. I'm not sure how Hobby could be directly served.

3. I decided to give METRO Galveston serving lines with commuter rail with a train going a general Victoria-Freeport-Galveston-Beaumont route. Of course, several lines to Houston go from Galveston.

[marc]

That is a myth perpetuated by the same short sighted, provincial attitude displayed by the above mentioned. Have you ever been to Amsterdam? It makes Houston look like it was built on the Rockies.

You know, after i got some info. contrary to what i thought about the Houston soil and such, i went on line and looked up how they constructed the subway system for Amsterdam. With advances in technology they can harden the soft clay and soil chemically.

I am glad some of you guys clarified this assumption of mine. I didn't think in a million years that it was even possible to have a subway system in Houston. So, for me, that's pretty cool that it is possible.

Now, the question becomes, would our illustrious leaders think it FEASIBLE to spend the extra cost for it. Like many have said before, it all depends on need.

Thanks for the info.

m.

[VicMan]

Anyway, I would also like to know how far METRO's service should reach. I believe METRO should travel beyond Harris County. But, should METRO link with other regional transportation services? (I.E. VIA in San Antonio)

[Trae]

You know, after i got some info. contrary to what i thought about the Houston soil and such, i went on line and looked up how they constructed the subway system for Amsterdam. With advances in technology they can harden the soft clay and soil chemically.

I am glad some of you guys clarified this assumption of mine. I didn't think in a million years that it was even possible to have a subway system in Houston. So, for me, that's pretty cool that it is possible.

Now, the question becomes, would our illustrious leaders think it FEASIBLE to spend the extra cost for it. Like many have said before, it all depends on need.

Thanks for the info.

m.

Yeah, it is possible for Houston to get a subway system. I hope it happens before I'm 50 (I'm 16 now).

[musicman]

Here, kids: http://i143.photobucket.com/albums/r129/Vi...muterPlan-1.png

1. I am not sure how far the line to Columbus should go. Should it go to San Antonio? (To link with VIA, San Antonio's rail system)

2. Ellington Field does not have to be on-site. I'm not sure how Hobby could be directly served.

3. I decided to give METRO Galveston serving lines with commuter rail with a train going a general Victoria-Freeport-Galveston-Beaumont route. Of course, several lines to Houston go from Galveston.

unfortunately this kid needs some glasses cause i can't see much. do the colors mean anything specific? this would appear to be a plan assuming that METRO has lines to hobby/etc completed. but then shows other lines (some extant and some non) out farther. building new lines is not feasible because of costs.

the stops are spaced farther apart which is good for travel times. but when you attach to METRO's proposed system, it might make driving easier because of # of stops for a short distance. for more people to hop on the bandwagon, real time savings must occur.

Anyway, I would also like to know how far METRO's service should reach. I believe METRO should travel beyond Harris County. But, should METRO link with other regional transportation services? (I.E. VIA in San Antonio)

they should serve Harris county better before worrying about smaller cities way out.

[VicMan]

I tried to upload the full file to Photobucket, BUT the size was reduced. Should I try Geocities?

EDIT: http://www.geocities.com/viciouskatanaguy/...ommuterPlan.png

The colors show continuous lines - E.G. a person travelling from Galveston to Lake Charles would disembark at Beaumont and change trains

unfortunately this kid needs some glasses cause i can't see much. do the colors mean anything specific? this would appear to be a plan assuming that METRO has lines to hobby/etc completed. but then shows other lines (some extant and some non) out farther. building new lines is not feasible because of costs.

the stops are spaced farther apart which is good for travel times. but when you attach to METRO's proposed system, it might make driving easier because of # of stops for a short distance. for more people to hop on the bandwagon, real time savings must occur.

they should serve Harris county better before worrying about smaller cities way out.

[musicman]

I tried to upload the full file to Photobucket, BUT the size was reduced. Should I try Geocities?

nah not necessary. having riders transfer to a system slower than what they were on would most likely be a negative for some of these lines. not having to transfer is the way to go, unless the transfer leg is just as quick or quicker.

[marc]

Anyway, I would also like to know how far METRO's service should reach. I believe METRO should travel beyond Harris County. But, should METRO link with other regional transportation services? (I.E. VIA in San Antonio)

Not EXACTLY what we are talking about, but i thought it could be squeezed into this thread.......

I know it would cost billions AND the idea resurfaces every now and again, but in my perfect little world, a

Golden Triangle Mag-Lev design would be perfect to connect Houston, Dallas, Austin and San Antonio.

The line would run along side I-10 (maybe beginning where the last local line ends) to San Antonio veering off at Hwy 71 toward Austin. From San Antonio it could run along I-35 toward Austin, passing through all the way to Dallas, connecting in Dallas and running along I-45 back toward Houston. i envision the Mag-Lev stations in these cities beginning where the local rail line ends.

OR if feasible maybe running all the way into the DT areas. This would be relatively simple in cities like SA and Austin, but i think it would be more difficult to run all the way into Houston and Dallas DTs.

m.

[VicMan]

nah not necessary. having riders transfer to a system slower than what they were on would most likely be a negative for some of these lines. not having to transfer is the way to go, unless the transfer leg is just as quick or quicker.

For that reason, I had the lines from northwest and north Harris Counties extend all the way to Galveston. I'll edit the draft I have an have the Kingwood line also extend to Galveston.

[musicman]

For that reason, I had the lines from northwest and north Harris Counties extend all the way to Galveston. I'll edit the draft I have an have the Kingwood line also extend to Galveston.

you have to remember commuter rail is one way. so the kingwood and galveston people will be both heading downtown at the same time.

[VicMan]

you have to remember commuter rail is one way. so the kingwood and galveston people will be both heading downtown at the same time.

Yep - I would make Downtown more or less the central station for METRO operations (Then again, so would the rest of us).

All general directions directly from Downtown would not need transfers.

[musicman]

yeah their proposed intermodal setup will be key. at meeting i went to a few weeks ago, METRO had large graphics with the intermodal. and multiple layers of tracks. looks like it is supposed to be located where the current main street underpass is. but the 2 METRO people there i was speaking with mentioned how union pacific said METRO's plan is not workable because track usage has grown while METRO said they think they can find middle ground. will be interesting.

Yep - I would make Downtown more or less the central station for METRO operations (Then again, so would the rest of us).

All general directions directly from Downtown would not need transfers.

guess the wording "i'll have the kingwood line extend to galveston" was slighting confusing to me. the kingwood line goes downtown as does the galveston line.

[T 2 THA C]

No, there are no tracks along Westpark inside the Loop.

However, I wonder if commuter rail could run to the terminus of the area for Westpark rail (I'm not sure where it would begin) and connect with light rail?

If rail could be connected along the tollway to an area near Uptown, perhaps a light rail connection could occur there.

From my memory there is old RR ROW inside the loop along westpark untill kirby and then runs along the SW FWY untill Spur 527. This old RR was removed for WPT but im not sure where this RR went from Spur 527.

I do not remember but I saw somewhere it showed that this RR used to run all the way to the east of downtown, I believe it was west of the old Colombia Tap RR.

[lockmat]

Not EXACTLY what we are talking about, but i thought it could be squeezed into this thread.......

I know it would cost billions AND the idea resurfaces every now and again, but in my perfect little world, a

Golden Triangle Mag-Lev design would be perfect to connect Houston, Dallas, Austin and San Antonio.

The line would run along side I-10 (maybe beginning where the last local line ends) to San Antonio veering off at Hwy 71 toward Austin. From San Antonio it could run along I-35 toward Austin, passing through all the way to Dallas, connecting in Dallas and running along I-45 back toward Houston. i envision the Mag-Lev stations in these cities beginning where the local rail line ends.

OR if feasible maybe running all the way into the DT areas. This would be relatively simple in cities like SA and Austin, but i think it would be more difficult to run all the way into Houston and Dallas DTs.

m.

Have you seen Niche's thread about this topic? It's in the transportation forum I think. I'll go see if I can find it. I love the idea.

Here it is:

http://www.houstonarchitecture.info/haif/i...?showtopic=7531

And with the need for quick communication now and even more in the future, I think this might be an essential idea.

[VicMan]

yeah their proposed intermodal setup will be key. at meeting i went to a few weeks ago, METRO had large graphics with the intermodal. and multiple layers of tracks. looks like it is supposed to be located where the current main street underpass is. but the 2 METRO people there i was speaking with mentioned how union pacific said METRO's plan is not workable because track usage has grown while METRO said they think they can find middle ground. will be interesting.

guess the wording "i'll have the kingwood line extend to galveston" was slighting confusing to me. the kingwood line goes downtown as does the galveston line.

There would be four lines to Galveston and Downtown.

One travels from Montgomery County to Downtown and then to Galveston

The second has a similar journey as the first but has less stops, and hence is the "Airport Express"

The third goes to Cypress-Fairbanks, Prairie View, and College Station

The fourth goes to Kingwood and travels northeast

[musicman]

There would be four lines to Galveston and Downtown.

i must be looking at a different map because there are more than four lines downtown on the map you posted.

One travels from Montgomery County to Downtown and then to Galveston

The lines either go all in or all out. a rider will not be able to go from mont county to downtown and then to galveston because the galveston line will be going in to downtown as well. commuter rail is only going one way.

The second has a similar journey as the first but has less stops, and hence is the "Airport Express"

looks like the "airport express" has MORE stops so really isn't express.

The third goes to Cypress-Fairbanks, Prairie View, and College Station

The fourth goes to Kingwood and travels northeast

[VicMan]

1. "i must be looking at a different map because there are more than four lines downtown on the map you posted."

What I meant was there are four lines from Galveston to Downtown AND beyond (I thought of adding Kingwood-Galveston after I wrote it):

* Red - Airport Express (As in that, from Downtown, there are NO stops to Hobby Airport, nor are there any from Downtown to IAH)

** Galveston <-> NASA/Clear Lake <-> Hobby Airport <-> Downtown Houston <-> Bush Intercontinental Airport <-> The Woodlands <-> Conroe <-> Huntsville

* Light Green

** Galveston <-> Texas City/La Marque <-> League City/Kemah <-> NASA/Clear Lake <-> Ellington Field <-> Hobby Airport <-> Downtown Houston <-> Jersey Village <-> Cypress <-> Waller <-> Prairie View/Hempstead <-> Navasota <-> College Station

* Pink

** Galveston <-> Texas City/La Marque <-> League City/Kemah <-> NASA/Clear Lake <-> Ellington Field <-> Hobby Airport <-> Downtown Houston <-> Greenspoint <-> Bush Intercontinental Airport <-> Spring/Klein <-> The Woodlands <-> Conroe <-> Willis <-> Huntsville

* Purple

** Galveston <-> Texas City/La Marque <-> League City/Kemah <-> NASA/Clear Lake <-> Ellington Field <-> Hobby Airport <-> Downtown Houston <-> Greenspoint <-> Bush Intercontinental Airport <-> Kingwood <-> New Caney <-> Cleveland <-> Shepherd <-> Goodrich <-> Livingston

The indigo line extends like this:

* Victoria <-> Bay City <-> West Columbia <-> Freeport <-> Galveston <-> High Island <-> Port Arthur <-> Nederland <-> Beaumont

So, two lines from Galveston end in Huntsville, one line extends to College Station, one line extends to Livingston, and one can go either direction to either Victoria or Beaumont.

The difference between the Airport Express and the Pink Line is that:

* People from Downtown have ZERO stops to the Bush Airport, while, with the other line, there is one stop

* People from NASA have ZERO stops to Hobby, while with the pink NASA riders have one

* People from Galveston have one stop to Hobby, while with the pink Galveston riders have four

Also, as earlier cited, I would use more "express" style trains with the Red Airport express lines, while trains meant to carry more passengers would be used by the other lines.

[VicMan]

As for the fact that there are no tracks actually at Hobby Airport: That's easy to solve - Just put the station in or near the city of South Houston (where tracks exist) and then have bus shuttles to Hobby Airport

[musicman]

As for the fact that there are no tracks actually at Hobby Airport: That's easy to solve - Just put the station in or near the city of South Houston (where tracks exist) and then have bus shuttles to Hobby Airport

there are buses that already go there quite frequently from downtown and more crowded areas. not sure if the soho express will be used.

[VicMan]

there are buses that already go there quite frequently from downtown and more crowded areas. not sure if the soho express will be used.

In any event, the main reason I proposed the airport line was for fast service to Intercontinental.

Do you feel that the SOHO Hobby connection should be dropped from the (red) Airport Express Line and the Airport Express line should solely focus on connections to Bush Intercontinental Airport?

[marc]

Have you seen Niche's thread about this topic? It's in the transportation forum I think. I'll go see if I can find it. I love the idea

I had not. I just finished reading the entire thread. It is awesome. I knew i couldn't be the only one to see its potential.

But i feel like such a poser. Niche put time and energy into the logistics and such........i just saw the "triangle" on the map!

m.

[musicman]

In any event, the main reason I proposed the airport line was for fast service to Intercontinental.

Do you feel that the SOHO Hobby connection should be dropped from the (red) Airport Express Line and the Airport Express line should solely focus on connections to Bush Intercontinental Airport?

your nomenclature is odd. so it starts in galveston and is called the red airport express and the final destination is IAH or beyond? if i was in galveston and heard airport express, i don't think IAH would come to mind first.

[VicMan]

your nomenclature is odd. so it starts in galveston and is called the red airport express and the final destination is IAH or beyond? if i was in galveston and heard airport express, i don't think IAH would come to mind first.

Well, the reason it is named such is because the line would exist to quickly link major cities and centers of employment with the Bush Airport by using less stops (and not stopping at all between Houston's Central Station and Bush Airport).

See, if Bush Airport was located at the end of a peninsula or along the coast (this is why Galveston is the terminus), Bush would be the last stop. However, Bush is sandwiched between The Woodlands (a major Houston suburb that houses headquarters for some firms) and Downtown Houston. So, why have the airport express terminate at Bush when it can continue to serve major cities north of the airport?

[musicman]

Well, the reason it is named such is because the line would exist to quickly link major cities and centers of employment with the Bush Airport by using less stops (and not stopping at all between Houston's Central Station and Bush Airport).

realistically this won't work. ridership must be optimized. this "method" doesn't do that. calling it the red airport express would be a disservice as well. if it is coming from galveston to houston, i think houston should be the name....and then as it passes downtown call it something else similar to the freeways. if you're galveston and think airport express, i'd think of scholl's field and hobby before IAH

[VicMan]

realistically this won't work. ridership must be optimized. this "method" doesn't do that. calling it the red airport express would be a disservice as well. if it is coming from galveston to houston, i think houston should be the name....and then as it passes downtown call it something else similar to the freeways. if you're galveston and think airport express, i'd think of scholl's field and hobby before IAH

So, how should I alter the line to make the ridership optimized? Should it originate in Galveston and end at Bush? Or should it be strictly Downtown to Bush?

I'm in favor of simply Galveston-Clear Lake-Downtown Houston-Bush Airport and calling the line the "Intercontinental Express."

What could help with the naming issue and prevent "i'd think of scholl's field and hobby before IAH" is to call the line the "Intercontinental Express" or something similar to disambiguate the airport. After all, the line that I would model the train line after is called the "Narita Express" (There are two airports in the Tokyo area: the almost-completely domestic Tokyo International Airport in Ota Ward, Tokyo, nicknamed Haneda, and the Narita International Airport in Narita, Chiba Prefecture).

[musicman]

So, how should I alter the line to make the ridership optimized? Should it originate in Galveston and end at Bush? Or should it be strictly Downtown to Bush?

I'm in favor of simply Galveston-Clear Lake-Downtown Houston-Bush Airport and calling the line the "Intercontinental Express."

the names must be user friendly and useful. from downtown to IAH it would be ok....from galveston, to ignore downtown houston in name is horrible. it would be similar to calling the gulf freeway the dallas express. it just isn't logical.

What could help with the naming issue and prevent "i'd think of scholl's field and hobby before IAH" is to call the line the "Intercontinental Express" or something similar to disambiguate the airport. After all, the line that I would model the train line after is called the "Narita Express" (There are two airports in the Tokyo area: the almost-completely domestic Tokyo International Airport in Ota Ward, Tokyo, nicknamed Haneda, and the Narita International Airport in Narita, Chiba Prefecture).

remember our population density isn't like japan's. the money needed to implement this and operate it would be out of the question for the probable ridership. have this express line and two parallel lines that stop more is just not possible. do you realize how much money it would cost to just obtain the land? the 340 million that the red line cost would be cheap compared to your proposal. we just don't have the money to do this.