Archbishop Fiorenza Plaza - 1111 Pierce Street (Former 1911 Co-Cathedral of the Sacred Heart)

[004n063]

15 minutes ago, Ross said:

Their property, their choice. If it bothers you that much, make an offer for the property and develop it as you wish. You will fail, because the Catholic Church doesn't care at all what you think.

I mean...isn't ineffectually opining on the development of properties we don't own pretty much the whole point of HAIF? 

We all know that there's nothing we can do about this abomination, but why should that stop us from calling it out as such?

[Ross]

3 hours ago, 004n063 said:

I mean...isn't ineffectually opining on the development of properties we don't own pretty much the whole point of HAIF? 

We all know that there's nothing we can do about this abomination, but why should that stop us from calling it out as such?

Lots of discussion like that, and I occasionally just become a grumpy old man and point out that sometimes there's nothing you can do if you do not own the property. And the Catholic church is less worried about what anyone thinks than most developers.

[editor]

On 3/15/2023 at 11:03 PM, steve1363 said:

I'm guessing none of you HAIFers are members (or attendees) of Sacred Heart!  🤣

I am.

It was announced at mass on Saturday that demolition is imminent, with asbestos abatement starting this week.  The verbal announcement was mostly about contingency plans for parking, since the existing surface parking lot across the street will become a staging area for the entire project, and will become less and less available for parking over time.  Amegy Bank is helping out with that, my guess is because its parking garage is empty on weekends.

The parish is talking up the plaza, and downplaying the parking, even though parking is clearly the vast majority of what's being built.

There was also a note about it in the bulletin yesterday:

Quote

March 19, 2023

Archbishop Joseph Fiorenza Plaza Project Update

Dear Friends in Christ:
Anh chị em thân mến trong Chúa Kitô:
Estimados Amigos y Amigas en Cristo:

On the weekend of February 25-26, the First Sunday of Lent, I announced the plans for the construction of the Archbishop Joseph Fiorenza Plaza. Following the death of Archbishop Fiorenza this fall, I have been in discussion with Cardinal DiNardo and Archdi- ocesan leadership about bringing to fulfillment the late Archbish- op’s master plans for the Co-Cathedral of the Sacred Heart.

The first phase of this project begins with the demolition of the old Sacred Heart church, which will begin shortly. You will start to see equipment this week as asbestos abatement begins in anticipa- tion of the actual demolition. We are proceeding with an aggres- sive project plan in hopes that the entire project might (and for anyone who has been involved in construction projects, “might” is the key word) be completed by Christmas.
This will be part of a greater campaign that will be shared with parish and Archdiocese by summer, but even as plans are designed and funding raised, the demolition of the church must prepare the way. This is being accomplished by means of a substantial grant from the Archdiocese to help us get started.

During this time of construction, there will be short term disrup- tion of parking. Following Easter, the primary parking lot across the street from the Co-Cathedral will range from partially to com- pletely unavailable. In addition to street parking and parking in the Cathedral Centre lot, we are making arrangements to have the Chancery lot (immediately behind the Co-Cathedral) available even during weekdays as it is throughout the Lenten season each year. Additionally, Amegy Bank is cooperating with us in making their parking garage more available during weekends and key weeknights. Please be patient with us as we squeeze for a little while in order to expand and increase capacity.

Many have also inquired about bricks and other sentimental keep- sakes from the old church as well as special opportunities to do- nate—details about these matters will be shared at a future date, but for now I will simply say that there will indeed be opportuni- ties for all of these things. We want to enshrine the memory and story of our past while paving the way towards a bright future.

For information about the Archbishop Joseph Fiorenza Plaza pro- ject, visit www.sacredhearthouston.org/plaza.

O Sacred Heart of Jesus, we place all our trust in you! Amen!

Yours in Christ,

Very Rev. Jeffrey L Bame Pastor & Rector

 

[j_cuevas713]

On 3/17/2023 at 5:39 PM, Ross said:

Their property, their choice. If it bothers you that much, make an offer for the property and develop it as you wish. You will fail, because the Catholic Church doesn't care at all what you think.

Well I think that's the point Ross. I agree with the whole idea that it's your property you can do whatever you want with it, but to not consider the neighborhood one bit is extremely nearsighted. 

[hbg.50]

I’m not an architect but isn’t the purpose of architecture to be functional?  Why is a surface parking lot an abomination if it meets the needs of the church patrons?  Don’t tell me you want my 80-year old parents (members of Sacred Heart) to ride their bikes to mass or walk a mile from a transit stop?  I much prefer a surface parking lot across the street from the church than a dark dingy parking garage.

A parking lot can be surrounded by a nice fence or green hedges.  The church can make it look nice.  The church has nice flower beds if I remember correctly.  Give them a chance.

[HouTXRanger]

On 3/17/2023 at 3:39 PM, Ross said:

Their property, their choice. If it bothers you that much, make an offer for the property and develop it as you wish. You will fail, because the Catholic Church doesn't care at all what you think.

Of course, how could I forget! Unless you own the land, you get zero right to opine on how your neighborhood changes for the worse. Someone should tell all those people protesting NHIP . . .

Also, if I really cared what the landowners thought, I wouldn't waste my time commenting here, would I? I doubt any landowners of any projects we discuss even know we exist.
 

54 minutes ago, steve1363 said:

I’m not an architect but isn’t the purpose of architecture to be functional?  Why is a surface parking lot an abomination if it meets the needs of the church patrons?  Don’t tell me you want my 80-year old parents (members of Sacred Heart) to ride their bikes to mass or walk a mile from a transit stop?  I much prefer a surface parking lot across the street from the church than a dark dingy parking garage.

A parking lot can be surrounded by a nice fence or green hedges.  The church can make it look nice.  The church has nice flower beds if I remember correctly.  Give them a chance.

Calling a parking lot "architecture" is a stretch. Calling storage for unoccupied cars "functional" is less of a stretch, in the same way an empty dirt lot is functional because it's non-permeable and absorbs water when it rains. Looking at google earth, in the eight blocks surrounding the church, there are three multi-level parking garages and four surface lots, one of which is already owned and used by the church.

Nobody is saying your grandparents should take transit or bike. There is a drop-off area for people of any physical ability. There is already a parking lot owned by the church for them to use, and the building is surrounded by even more parking lots and street parking. Demolishing the old building doesn't make anything easier for your parents. In fact, it might make things more difficult by inducing the demand for parking when more people start driving there and expecting an easy parking spot.

Why are the only two possible uses for you a parking lot or parking garage? This is in downtown Houston, within walking distance of hundreds of apartments, tons of workplaces, and the downtown transit center. Why can't this be used as a church facility again? Or as a school? Or as, god forbid, housing?

The church is demolishing this because they can't be arsed to take care of their property and want to wash their hands of a potential asset for short term gains. It's not about parking. Or about the plaza. It's about doing the bare minimum by lazy management, and pretty much everyone will be worse off for it.

[004n063]

Forgive my ignorance, but aren't churches generally neighborhood things? I always assumed they were meant to be village centers, so to speak. Do a lot of people go a long way to go to church?

[Ross]

34 minutes ago, 004n063 said:

Forgive my ignorance, but aren't churches generally neighborhood things? I always assumed they were meant to be village centers, so to speak. Do a lot of people go a long way to go to church?

Sacred Heart is the Co-Cathedral for the Houston-Galveston Arch Diocese, ie one of the two main Catholic churches for a 10 county area of Southeast Texas. There's a map on this page showing the boundaries https://cabrinihouston.org/archdiocese-of-galvestonhouston

It's a major church for Catholics.

[staresatmaps]

A cathedral is basically a headquarters church for the area. But even a normal church here, 98% of people are driving. Churches as a village center haven't been a thing here since the 1800s when everybody went to church and neighborhoods were segregated by religion.

[hindesky]

https://www.sacredhearthouston.org/plaza

"Although demolition just began, the Archdiocese of Galveston-Houston had been intending to demolish the facility for more than two decades. Plans to raze it to make way for a parking lot and a plaza were announced in 2001.

The sanctuary was replaced in 2008 when a new church was consecrated across St. Joseph Parkway to keep pace with its growing congregation, according to information posted on the church website.

The old church, which was designated as a co-cathedral when Houston was elevated as part of the then-Diocese of Galveston-Houston in the late 1950s, last had been renovated in 1990.

But the dilapidated building had become a hotspot for crime in recent years, according to the church."

https://www.houstonchronicle.com/news/houston-texas/article/sacred-heart-demolition-houston-church-17919936.php

[hindesky]

Crew is removing the roof tiles in preparation of demo.

[hindesky]

Grant MacKay got the contract to take it down. They have an excavator with a long reach boom on it. Salvaging some statues and other parts of the building.

https://www.grantmackaydemolition.com

[hindesky]

[Texasota]

I thought my opinion of the archdiocese was already as low as it could get. I can't completely believe they're doing this.

[j_cuevas713]

6 hours ago, Texasota said:

I thought my opinion of the archdiocese was already as low as it could get. I can't completely believe they're doing this.

When they demolished the original Incarnate Word building I was devastated

[editor]

9 hours ago, Texasota said:

I thought my opinion of the archdiocese was already as low as it could get. I can't completely believe they're doing this.

I wouldn't mind if it was for a homeless shelter, or a soup kitchen, or a school, or even a park.  But for a parking lot?  Terrible.

Maybe five or ten years from now, or whenever the Pierce Elevated goes away, that parking lot will sprout a residential skyscraper. 

In Chicago, at least three churches (Old Saint Pat's, Annunciation, Holy Name Cathedral) sold their parking lots to developers.  In exchange, the churches got several floors of dedicated parking, and a smattering of meeting space.

[texan]

9 minutes ago, editor said:

I wouldn't mind if it was for a homeless shelter, or a soup kitchen, or a school, or even a park.  But for a parking lot?  Terrible.

Maybe five or ten years from now, or whenever the Pierce Elevated goes away, that parking lot will sprout a residential skyscraper. 

In Chicago, at least three churches (Old Saint Pat's, Annunciation, Holy Name Cathedral) sold their parking lots to developers.  In exchange, the churches got several floors of dedicated parking, and a smattering of meeting space.

St. Austin's in Austin did the same thing and, in addition to new parking, they got a new school building, rectory, and gym out of it. St. Mary's in College Station has a similar long-term plan in place.

https://staustin.org/our-property-development-journey

[bookey23]

17 hours ago, editor said:

In Chicago, at least three churches (Old Saint Pat's, Annunciation, Holy Name Cathedral) sold their parking lots to developers.  In exchange, the churches got several floors of dedicated parking, and a smattering of meeting space.

This is what Incarnate Word Academy has done with Crane. Crane is building a big parking garage for the new Astros Village, but is reserving a certain number of spaces for IWA

[Houston19514]

18 hours ago, editor said:

I wouldn't mind if it was for a homeless shelter, or a soup kitchen, or a school, or even a park.  But for a parking lot?  Terrible.

Maybe five or ten years from now, or whenever the Pierce Elevated goes away, that parking lot will sprout a residential skyscraper. 

In Chicago, at least three churches (Old Saint Pat's, Annunciation, Holy Name Cathedral) sold their parking lots to developers.  In exchange, the churches got several floors of dedicated parking, and a smattering of meeting space.

 

1 hour ago, bookey23 said:

This is what Incarnate Word Academy has done with Crane. Crane is building a big parking garage for the new Astros Village, but is reserving a certain number of spaces for IWA

 

And the Museum of Fine Arts, Houston did the same with First Presbyterian.

[hindesky]

They haven't even attached the long reach attachment to the excavator yet. I guess they will wait til they get to the main church.

[hindesky]

[hindesky]

[editor]

After mass, Saturday, May 27^th

[editor]

…and it's gone.  Taken after mass yesterday:

 

They're pushing hard for donations for the new space, downplaying the parking lot and talking up the non-parking lot part.  If the whole thing was open space, and not just 10% of it, I might buy a brick or something.  It seems like an opportunity missed.  The cathedral could lease the Archdiocese parking lot a block away, or ask Amegy to keep using its parking garage, giving the bank a huge tax write-off.  I just can't support more hot black tarmac in downtown Houston.

This was in today's bulletin:

Quote

Last weekend, our parish initiated the $9.8 million Completing the Walk capital campaign for benefitting the long term provision for our parish and its facilities by fulfilling the original vision and plan of the late Archbishop Fiorenza. This campaign will work with the parish- ioners of the Co-Cathedral as well as benefactors from across the Archdiocese, including those whose support made the Co-Cathedral’s construction possible in 2008. For those who missed out on the launch or want to know more details about specific case elements, I will use this space over the next few weeks to lay out more details.

The first case element is the one that was already announced back in March: the completion of the construction of the Archbishop A. Jo- seph Fiorenza Plaza. The late Archbishop had planned for a similar space called “Cathedral Green”, but as we complete the work, it is only fitting that it bear the name of its originally visionary.
Now that the demolition of the old structurally unsound church is complete, 60,000 square feet of space have been opened up for the 6,000 sq. ft. green space that will include a covered pavilion for events and community gatherings, the centerpiece Sacred Heart statue from the front of the old church, and a commemorative wall honoring the legacy of Archbishop Fiorenza, the history of Sacred Heart Parish, and the donors whose generosity makes the project possible.

The remaining space will provide for more than a tripling of available parking in the lot (from 44 to 144). This new parking development will be fully fenced, gated, and landscaped to provide for more con- venient and secure parking for our visitors immediately across the street from the Co-Cathedral. In total, this case element will account for $2.5 million of the $9.8 million goal.

Please visit our website at
www.completingthewalk.org

for more information about the campaign goals and ele- ments and how you can make a pledge or donation to join our community in Com- pleting the Walk.
O Sacred Heart of Jesus, we place all our trust in you! Amen!

Yours in Christ,
Very Rev. Jeffrey L Bame Pastor & Rector

 

 

[hindesky]

[Houston19514]

18 hours ago, editor said:

…and it's gone.  Taken after mass yesterday:

 

They're pushing hard for donations for the new space, downplaying the parking lot and talking up the non-parking lot part.  If the whole thing was open space, and not just 10% of it, I might buy a brick or something.  It seems like an opportunity missed.  The cathedral could lease the Archdiocese parking lot a block away, or ask Amegy to keep using its parking garage, giving the bank a huge tax write-off.  I just can't support more hot black tarmac in downtown Houston.

This was in today's bulletin:

 

 

Yeah, they could have created a lovely green space/plaza fronting the Cathedral, and even included some parking.  Instead they seem to be going ahead with an asphalt lot with a small corner "plaza" (if the renderings are any indication, it is not even worthy of the title "plaza".  Woo-Hoo!  They are using 1/10th of the block for their pathetic little plaza.  Just imagine the "events" they will be able to hold in that space.  .  It's an insult to the late Archbishop. Members/Attendees, please give them feedback on their funding requests.

Edited June 26, 2023 by Houston19514

[Texasota]

It's especially galling given the enormous lawns around the hideous co-cathedral itself. Particularly along San Jacinto - plenty of space for "events" there.

[hbg.50]

The church needs surface parking for midweek services.  Haters are gonna hate… whatever.

[Houston19514]

54 minutes ago, steve1363 said:

The church needs surface parking for midweek services.  Haters are gonna hate… whatever.

Where do such people park now?  How many spaces do they realistically need for midweek services?  In any event, they may need parking, but they don't need surface parking. They aren't the only cathedral in downtown that has midweek parking needs...

Edited June 26, 2023 by Houston19514

[hbg.50]

4 hours ago, Houston19514 said:

Where do such people park now?  How many spaces do they realistically need for midweek services?  In any event, they may need parking, but they don't need surface parking. They aren't the only cathedral in downtown that has midweek parking needs...

That’s part of the problem being addressed.  Unless you go to the church and know there is a small rectory parking lot in the back you are left to find street parking.

I went to a funeral mass on a Wednesday morning recently.  Many people arrived late due to parking issues and the procession to the cemetery was problematic due to the lack of cohesive parking.  

I’m not a member but I don’t begrudge the church for wanting a better parking solution for people that go there.