H-Town Man Posted January 21, 2015 Share Posted January 21, 2015 I'm not sure what you were saying with the MoN&S but I don't think Dallas has much more tacky architecture than we have here in Houston. Dallas is the only place in the world where you have six different Pritzker Prize winning architect's buildings within walking distance of each other.I'm not a fan of Dallas just sayin'...I am a fan of the Perot though. I think it's a great building. Thom Mayne is a genius but his designs tend to be very polarizing. The concept for the Perot was to not be a neutral background for exhibits as most museums tend to be but to actively engage visitors which is why they placed it on top of a plinth that creates an artificial ground plane that tries to juxtapose nature and the city. It's meant to be explored not feel like you're walking through room after room of dinosaur bones.I believe the "tacky" reputation comes from how many reflective glass and, in particular, gold glass buildings they have. Whereas many Dallasites see Houston's skyline as "boring" because it is less glitzy.As far as the Perot, if that is a great building then they should take the federal courthouse on Rusk, block out most of the windows but leave select random ones open, and add another "great building" to Houston. There, I said it. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cloud713 Posted January 21, 2015 Share Posted January 21, 2015 I'm not sure what you were saying with the MoN&S but I don't think Dallas has much more tacky architecture than we have here in Houston. Dallas is the only place in the world where you have six different Pritzker Prize winning architect's buildings within walking distance of each other.I'm not a fan of Dallas just sayin'...I am a fan of the Perot though. I think it's a great building. Thom Mayne is a genius but his designs tend to be very polarizing. The concept for the Perot was to not be a neutral background for exhibits as most museums tend to be but to actively engage visitors which is why they placed it on top of a plinth that creates an artificial ground plane that tries to juxtapose nature and the city. It's meant to be explored not feel like you're walking through room after room of dinosaur bones.I didn't mean the Perot was tacky. I just think it's oddball/over the top style fits in better with the rest of Dallas. What/where are these 6 priztker prize winning architects buildings within walking distance of each other? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lospringer Posted January 21, 2015 Share Posted January 21, 2015 I didn't mean the Perot was tacky. I just think it's oddball/over the top style fits in better with the rest of Dallas.What/where are these 6 priztker prize winning architects buildings within walking distance of each other? I know you weren't referring to the Perot when you said tacky. The buildings are Winspear Opera House - Norman FosterWyly Theater - Rem KoolhaasPerot Museum - Thom MayneMorton H Meyerson Symphony Center - IM PeiNasher Sculpture Center - Renzo PianoPick any Philip Johnson building, there's several in downtown  There's also the Rachofsky House just outside Dallas by Richard Meier who is also a Pritzker winner 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
H-Town Man Posted January 21, 2015 Share Posted January 21, 2015 I know you weren't referring to the Perot when you said tacky. The buildings are Winspear Opera House - Norman FosterWyly Theater - Rem KoolhaasPerot Museum - Thom MayneMorton H Meyerson Symphony Center - IM PeiNasher Sculpture Center - Renzo PianoPick any Philip Johnson building, there's several in downtown  There's also the Rachofsky House just outside Dallas by Richard Meier who is also a Pritzker winner Impressive list. But several Philip Johnsons downtown? I can only think of Momentum Place/Comerica and the Crescent if you count Uptown as downtown. Thanksgiving Square and the JFK Memorial too, but neither is a building. Pei is closer to having several - Meyerson, City Hall, and Fountain Place. Didn't Rem Koolhaas distance himself from the Wyly Theater after they made changes to it? Thought I heard something like that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lospringer Posted January 21, 2015 Share Posted January 21, 2015 Impressive list. But several Philip Johnsons downtown? I can only think of Momentum Place/Comerica and the Crescent if you count Uptown as downtown. Thanksgiving Square and the JFK Memorial too, but neither is a building. Pei is closer to having several - Meyerson, City Hall, and Fountain Place. Didn't Rem Koolhaas distance himself from the Wyly Theater after they made changes to it? Thought I heard something like that.  Sorry...several 'works' by Philip Johnson. Yes, Crescent is uptown but still minutes from the Arts District. Long story short Dallas has some pretty respectable architecture within a very close area haha Rem is listed on the Wyly Theater site as an architect. OMA collaborated with REX on the project so maybe he was more of a consultant on the project, not sure. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luminare Posted January 21, 2015 Share Posted January 21, 2015 (edited) I always considered Wyly Theater as more of an OMA project with Rem attached to it. Like Steven Spielberg when he attaches his name to a film as a Producer lol.  EDIT: I'm just going to post this here because Wyly Theater is a fun little building and is talked about more here in this Ted Talks  Edited January 21, 2015 by Luminare Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cloud713 Posted January 21, 2015 Share Posted January 21, 2015 (edited) I know you weren't referring to the Perot when you said tacky. The buildings are Winspear Opera House - Norman FosterWyly Theater - Rem KoolhaasPerot Museum - Thom MayneMorton H Meyerson Symphony Center - IM PeiNasher Sculpture Center - Renzo PianoPick any Philip Johnson building, there's several in downtown  There's also the Rachofsky House just outside Dallas by Richard Meier who is also a Pritzker winner thats pretty cool.. i wonder how many Pritzker Prize architect designed buildings Houston has.is there a list anywhere of all the Houston buildings and the Pritzker architects who designed them? that would be something cool to find out. Long story short Dallas has some pretty respectable architecture within a very close area hahai guess thats one of the benefits to having zoning... Edited January 21, 2015 by cloud713 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lospringer Posted January 21, 2015 Share Posted January 21, 2015 thats pretty cool.. i wonder how many Pritzker Prize architect designed buildings Houston has.is there a list anywhere of all the Houston buildings and the Pritzker architects who designed them? that would be something cool to find out. i guess thats one of the benefits to having zoning... Well I'm not sure of a list but these are the Pritzker winners I can think of that have buildings in Houston IM Pei - Chase TowerRenzo Piano - MenilRafael Moneo - Beck Building MFAHPhilip Johnson - Throw a stone and see where it lands..probably hit one of his buildings  I always assumed Steven Holl had won a Pritzker but I guess he hasn't. I'm sure he will at some point though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cloud713 Posted January 21, 2015 Share Posted January 21, 2015 Well I'm not sure of a list but these are the Pritzker winners I can think of that have buildings in Houston IM Pei - Chase TowerRenzo Piano - MenilRafael Moneo - Beck Building MFAHPhilip Johnson - Throw a stone and see where it lands..probably hit one of his buildings  I always assumed Steven Holl had won a Pritzker but I guess he hasn't. I'm sure he will at some point though.hmm.. i too thought Holl had won. Mies obviously would have won had he been around. same for FLW. kind of surprised Pelli hasnt won. do you think Taniguchi will ever win?theres also the Venturi designed Childrens Museum.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lospringer Posted January 21, 2015 Share Posted January 21, 2015 Yeah Venturi is another one. I don't think that Children's Museum should be on any list the Menil is on though..not much of a fan of 80s/90s postmodernism 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arche_757 Posted January 21, 2015 Share Posted January 21, 2015 (edited) Phil Johnson - Republic Tower, Pennzoil, Transco... UH School of Architecture, de Menil House... keep chucking stones you'll hit something he did.IM Pei - Chase TowerPelli - 1500 Louisiana/UH Science Building # Something or otherRenzo Piano - Menil CampusYoshio Taniguchi - Asia SocietyRafael Moneo - MFA.BeckRobert Venturi - Children's MuseumKevin Roche - Conoco HQ Thought that Pelli and Taniguchi had won it! Apparently not? Yet they're still considered noteworthy architects. Add to the list:Frank Llyod Wright - Memorial Area houseMies van der Rohe - MFA expansions: 1958/1974(not winners but certainly would have been if the prize had started sooner!) I'm not sure what's been built recently on the Rice U campus - but they have gone towards getting more prestigious architects of late for work. Edited January 21, 2015 by arche_757 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luminare Posted January 21, 2015 Share Posted January 21, 2015 I know that Michael Graves isn't a Pritzker winner, but he recently designed a new building for Rice which is on University Blvd. A very nice building. Rice is potentially getting a theater by Diller Scofidio + Renfro. They also aren't Pritzker winners, but they are one of the "it" firms right now with some very popular work in Europe. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lospringer Posted January 21, 2015 Share Posted January 21, 2015 Rice also has the Brochstein Pavillion by Thomas Phifer and of course the Turrel Skyspace Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
H-Town Man Posted January 21, 2015 Share Posted January 21, 2015 Starchitects 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arche_757 Posted January 22, 2015 Share Posted January 22, 2015 ^Yes, but generally better quality comes from out of town architects than our local folks...unfortunately. Interesting read: http://www.citylab.com/design/2015/01/can-a-massive-museum-expansion-get-texans-walking/384669/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
H-Town Man Posted January 22, 2015 Share Posted January 22, 2015 I agree in general but it's over-fetishized. Dallas for instance seems to have made a point of starchitect-bombing their arts district, but the average person walking through that area would not feel that it's anything too special. They would probably think there were some neat buildings, but the overall product does not hang together very well or feel much like a neighborhood. I think one or two great starchitect buildings surrounded by the work of local architects who know the neighborhood and its history and can work to make contributory designs will bring better results than having big shots all designing show-stoppers based on little knowledge or interest in the city. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arche_757 Posted January 22, 2015 Share Posted January 22, 2015 (edited) ^True. Although some "starchitects" can design within the context of the neighborhood better than the locals. Just look at the Menil. Groundbreaking. I know Louis Kahn was originially taped to design it, but he passed away prior to finalizing things. I think Renzo did a splendid job, and I can't imagine ANY local architect doing something remotely as masterful and helping to not only define that neighborhood, but to set about defining inner city Houston the way Piano did. Moneo is a great example of big name - out of place. I love the art work in the Beck Building, but I don't think the building is the greatest thing ever. Certainly better than the usual trash that gets thrown up in this town, but it could have been better. Of course... if someone gave Local Architect Larry $350,000,000 budget to design a couple hundred thousand square foot gallery space I'll wager the design he/she could have created would have been fairly interesting? As for Dallas - haven't walked around the district itself - but I do know they basically created it out of nothing. The Museum District here has existed since what the 1970s? At least since then. It does take a while for neighborhoods to grow and mature. The Museum District is certainly growing up nicely, now if more density can be added along with responsible retail - we'll really have a destination. Edited January 22, 2015 by arche_757 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lospringer Posted January 22, 2015 Share Posted January 22, 2015 (edited) Well 'starchitects' didn't get that title for no reason. They got if from years of producing great work internationally. They do research, they understand the neighborhoods. There isn't a local firm that would've produced a better design than Steven Holl did for the MFAH expansion. And the Menil is considered one of the great museums...architects and fans of architecture come from all over the world to visit it. Done by an Italian guy that lives 5000 miles away. He managed to understand the neighborhood fairly well.As for local architects, yes there are a lot of talented ones in Houston that don't always get these marquis projects but when you have $450 million to spend you go for the 'name brand'. That's the business Edited January 22, 2015 by Lospringer 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
H-Town Man Posted January 22, 2015 Share Posted January 22, 2015 The title 'starchitects' was I believe coined by Blair Kamin of the Chicago Tribune to somewhat derisively describe architects whose hype surpassed the quality of their designs, even while having respectable designs. He identified the original starchitect as being Philip Johnson, who was made a star by Pennzoil Place, which Kamin thought looked like a pair of milk cartons. I'm not saying starchitects' reputation isn't somewhat deserved, but there is an Emperor's New Clothes phenomenon that goes on as well, and I don't think clustering starchitect buildings as in the Dallas Arts District produces great results. I much prefer the architectural environment around The Crescent (just so you don't think I hate Dallas), where one masterpiece is allowed to dominate and other buildings make strong synergistic contributions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luminare Posted January 22, 2015 Share Posted January 22, 2015 (edited) The title 'starchitects' was I believe coined by Blair Kamin of the Chicago Tribune to somewhat derisively describe architects whose hype surpassed the quality of their designs, even while having respectable designs. He identified the original starchitect as being Philip Johnson, who was made a star by Pennzoil Place, which Kamin thought looked like a pair of milk cartons. I'm not saying starchitects' reputation isn't somewhat deserved, but there is an Emperor's New Clothes phenomenon that goes on as well, and I don't think clustering starchitect buildings as in the Dallas Arts District produces great results. I much prefer the architectural environment around The Crescent (just so you don't think I hate Dallas), where one masterpiece is allowed to dominate and other buildings make strong synergistic contributions. I agree with all your points, but if there is any place in a city where buildings should be eclectic and clustered around each other it's in an art district or some sort of cultural district. It's fitting when the art collections in buildings which are also collections in of themselves. You see eclecticism of this manner in our nations capital. The Mall is lined with vastly different buildings with different styles, sensibilities, and the architects personalities to match. While it's true that when defining a district you want there to be some kind of homogeneity, but many times Art Districts break that mold due to the very nature of their function. What needs to match then are the buildings and features around those collections of buildings. Those are the ones that should match the randomness of the architecture not the conformity of the masses around it. Edited January 22, 2015 by Luminare Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
H-Town Man Posted January 22, 2015 Share Posted January 22, 2015 I agree with all your points, but if there is any place in a city where buildings should be eclectic and clustered around each other it's in an art district or some sort of cultural district. It's fitting when the art collections in buildings which are also collections in of themselves. You see eclecticism of this manner in our nations capital. The Mall is lined with vastly different buildings with different styles, sensibilities, and the architects personalities to match. While it's true that when defining a district you want there to be some kind of homogeneity, but many times Art Districts break that mold due to the very nature of their function. What needs to match then are the buildings and features around those collections of buildings. Those are the ones that should match the randomness of the architecture not the conformity of the masses around it. Very good counterpoint. But I would question whether Arts Districts which are collections of trophy properties are really the best idea if you are trying to create neighborhoods. Lincoln Center is probably the original instance of this approach taken by a city to its cultural institutions, and the overall result is uninspiring, although individual buildings are great. If you read much about how it was done, the architects' egos banged against each other and they all pretty much hated each other by the end. Jane Jacobs also talked about the downside of having all these institutional facilities clustered, which is that it renders the neighborhood completely dead when there aren't multiple events going on. The traditional approach of having arts institutions each forming their own neighborhood in separate parts of the city (like the Menil) might be in the long run a better way to go. I'm not completely decided on this, as I do sort of like the atmosphere of our theater district. But our theater district contains no starchitecture besides the office buildings near it, and yet it makes a better neighborhood than Dallas's Arts District. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
H-Town Man Posted January 22, 2015 Share Posted January 22, 2015 I would also just mention that the Washington Mall tends to have its best moments when the architecture is willing to conform to an overall plan or prevailing sense of style, as with the museums on the north side and the classical buildings at either end, versus some of the newer museums on the south side that each seems to be going off in its own direction, and would probably function better in a different setting than a grand traditional rectangular mall. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lospringer Posted January 22, 2015 Share Posted January 22, 2015 I'm not sure that uniformity or a prevailing style creates a neighborhood. I don't see anything wrong with grouping simalarly programmed buildings adjacent to each other or within the same district. That's how most cities do it. The theater district in Houston works fine But I wouldn't exactly call that architecture inspiring and I'm not saying it has to be done by some well known architect either. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cloud713 Posted January 22, 2015 Share Posted January 22, 2015 I'm not sure that uniformity or a prevailing style creates a neighborhood. I don't see anything wrong with grouping simalarly programmed buildings adjacent to each other or within the same district. That's how most cities do it. The theater district in Houston works fine But I wouldn't exactly call that architecture inspiring and I'm not saying it has to be done by some well known architect either.Jones Hall, Houston Center for Ballet, Hobby Center, Wortham Theater aren't nice looking buildings? Obviously not starchitects, but I feel they mesh together better than a cluster of buildings all trying too hard to outdo each other.I agree though, I don't see anything wrong with clustering similar things into districts, especially with a city as vast/hard to get around as Houston. But its hard to deny the sheer awesomeness of the Menil and what they've done for/with their surroundings. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luminare Posted January 26, 2015 Share Posted January 26, 2015 Posted on Swamplot this morning. It talks about the secondary goal of the expansion plan which is to make the district a more walkable neighborhood. http://www.citylab.com/design/2015/01/can-a-massive-museum-expansion-get-texans-walking/384669/ 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Naviguessor Posted January 26, 2015 Share Posted January 26, 2015 This view from the article isn't one that I have seen. You can see what the article states as being "seven vertical gardens" in the project. Liking it more and more. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arche_757 Posted January 26, 2015 Share Posted January 26, 2015 Article was posted last week in post 232. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sky-guy Posted January 27, 2015 Share Posted January 27, 2015 This view from the article isn't one that I have seen. You can see what the article states as being "seven vertical gardens" in the project. Liking it more and more.Don't expect it to look exactly like the rendering. Look at what happened to hotel Alessandra Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cloud713 Posted January 27, 2015 Share Posted January 27, 2015 pretty sure theyve already raised the majority of the funds for this...? this is one of the biggest art museums in the country. they arent going to half ass this. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luminare Posted January 27, 2015 Share Posted January 27, 2015 Don't expect it to look exactly like the rendering. Look at what happened to hotel Alessandra Do you really have to bring that bullcrap into this thread. Seriously? You literally just threw garbage into an otherwise good thread. Congrats dude. 6 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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