2008 PRESIDENTIAL ELECTION: Obama (D-IL) vs. McCain (R-AZ)

[TJones]

Huh?

Please refer to some of your fellow Obama lovin' buddies' posts about Palin.

Why should people know unless you think it will change their vote?

So, you are saying, it WILL change Obama believer's votes if they know he is Muslim ?

[Highway6]

Which statement are we supposed to believe? That she is a proponent of teaching both, or that creationism doesn't have to be part of the cirriculum? If it's the first, then she's advocating teaching religious mythology in science class. They aren't "both sides" of anything other than an attempt to reconcile a religious document with science.

Well, you don't exactly seeing all the little public school tykes in Alaska going around talking about Adam and Eve do ya?

After her election, Palin let the matter drop. The Associated Press reported Sept 3: "Palin's children attend public schools and Palin has made no push to have creationism taught in them. ... It reflects a hands-off attitude toward mixing government and religion by most Alaskans." The article was headlined, "Palin has not pushed creation science as governor." It was written by Dan Joling, who reports from Anchorage and has covered Alaska for 30 years.

I personally think the whole argument is a big waste of time.

I went to parochial schools that included daily chapel services my entire life.

But science class was science class. Biology was biology. And while the official stance was not to teach 'evolution'.. and i put it in quotes because while i dont remember it being discussed in terms of origin of life, it wasn't exactly like my science classes were devoid of darwin, natural selection, etc. And life wasn't such a vacuum that i wasn't aware of the big bang theory version growing up. And i also do not remember the Christian alternative to the origin of life being taught in the science classroom.

Science was science. Religion was religion. They each had their place.

Eventhough my upbringing separated the two, there wasnt all this hoopla and public debate either back then. I guess I just dont see the harm in it being briefly mentioned in the public school classroom, and by that i mean during the week they teach evolution, give half a period to debating, tell what each side thinks the flaws are in the oppositions side, etc. Kids are smart enough to figure things out for themselves. And if non-Christians are so darn sure its voodoo mythology, then fine, i would think they would want to debate and debunk it in the classroom.

For the record, i on't advocate it being taught in public school, because i don't think it has to be.

But, I do have a problem with those that think because its a myth it shouldnt even be debated if it came up in the classroom. I think those people are pansies and if they so firmly believe something should be able to take 20 minutes of their time to back it up. That should be true of any topic in any classroom.

Edit..

I disagree with your "there isnt another side" statement. There is another side, and lots and lots of people believe it to some degree. Actually 80% of the country considered themselves Christian in 2002. Thats a big other side.

You may not agree with what the other side believes, but i also think it's stupid to pretend the other side doesnt exist. And trying to keep it out of the classroom isnt going to make the other side or what they believe go away. Nor will it brainwash kids.

It's out there, its not going away, so even if its not taught, i see no harm in the classroom if there is debate and acknowlegement that there is another side.

Science class isnt going to turn aetheists into christians or visa versa, so i just dont see the harm

[memebag]

Please refer to some of your fellow Obama lovin' buddies' posts about Palin.

I haven't seen intolerance of Christians in those posts. Do you have a specific example in mind?

So, you are saying, it WILL change Obama believer's votes if they know he is Muslim ?

Nope. Read the question again.

[TJones]

I haven't seen intolerance of Christians in those posts. Do you have a specific example in mind?

Of course you haven't, everyone scared of the big bad Jesus being in school. I don't want creationism either, but I know Palin has no chance of it being passed in either House, so why make it an issue ?

Nope. Read the question again.

No, I knew what you were going for the first time, and I know you don't think it will sway anyone just as I do, so what's it matter what I believe to be true, I can't have an opinion against Barry Hussein based on his own words and some facts?

[houstonmacbro]

IF he is a Muslim, where is his Iman (sp?) and where are the other folks from his congregation?

[TJones]

IF he is a Muslim, where is his Iman (sp?) and where are the other folks from his congregation?

Who knows, perhaps he broke away from them like he did with Rev. Wright and that congregation he was a part of for 20 years ?

[memebag]

Of course you haven't, everyone scared of the big bad Jesus being in school. I don't want creationism either, but I know Palin has no chance of it being passed in either House, so why make it an issue ?

Because if McCain is elected president, there's a significant chance Palin will become president. As president, Palin would be able to nominate supreme court justices, and they decide issues of constitutional law. The Constitution is what keeps religion out of science classes.

No, I knew what you were going for the first time, and I know you don't think it will sway anyone just as I do, so what's it matter what I believe to be true, I can't have an opinion against Barry Hussein based on his own words and some facts?

I never said you couldn't. I asked why you keep repeating the claim that Obama is a Muslim. You still haven't answered.

[TJones]

Because if McCain is elected president, there's a significant chance Palin will become president. As president, Palin would be able to nominate supreme court justices, and they decide issues of constitutional law. The Constitution is what keeps religion out of science classes.

You are putting the cart before the horse, ANY president risks the chance of losing their life while in office. There is nothing you can do if it does happen. I give the American people enough credit to vote in a majority of what's best for them. Just because they don't vote like you, doesn't make them wrong. Even if God forbid, McCain dies in office, there is no guarantee that any judges will step down or die either. If palin does get to pick, you don't think these judges will abide by the letter of the law ?

I never said you couldn't. I asked why you keep repeating the claim that Obama is a Muslim. You still haven't answered.

I keep repeating because you guys keep asking, I have answered why, I even posted a Youtube, I have read some parts of his books, have you ?

[KinkaidAlum]

Can you, without hesitation, state that there is something about Obama's policies you DISAGREE with? Name them, I was honest to name my issues with palin in #1405, can you?

Sure I can.

I disagree with Obama about campaign finance reform. I didn't like the fact that he didn't accept public funds when he said he would if McCain would as well.

I disagree with Obama's flip to allow for "limited" offshore drilling increases in areas where it was once banned. What does limited mean? Why did he change his views?

I disagree with Obama's views on gay marriage. He supports civil unions but not gay marriages. Separate but not equal doesn't fly.

I disagree with Obama's views on healthcare. I don't like that he doesn't have mandates for adults.

I disagree with Obama about the border fence. He voted for it. Building a fence along the Mexican border is about the stupidest thing I have ever heard.

That said, I disagree with McCain about abortion rights as he apparently disagree with himself up until about 2006. I disagree with McCain's support for unspecified troop increases in Afghanistan...I want specifics. I disagree with McCain's flip-flopping on campaign finance reform and the fact that he has no problem accepting lobbyist money. I disagree with McCain's education plan mostly because he doesn't have one other than vague notions of vouchers and home schooling and NOTHING about affordable college education or pre-K programs. I oppose McCain's desire for federal $ for 46 nuclear reactors by 2030. I don't like that McCain doesn't want to ban assault-type weapons. McCain lacks a healthcare plan other than vague notions of tax credits. I also disagree with McCain's support of a border fence. I disagree with McCain's stance on not being open to negotiations with Iran. I disagree with McCain on just about everything about Iraq; from supporting it in the first place to having no timeline to leave and being open to a permanent "peace-keeping" force in Iraq. I am scared that McCain's official social security plan is "nothing is off the table." What the hell does that mean? Shouldn't he be forced to give some specifics about his plan? I also don't trust McCain on taxes. He was against the Bush tax cuts twice but now wants them to be permanent? He wants to lower the corporate tax rate to 25% at a time when our deficit is out of control? And yet, he still promises to balance the budget? HOW IN THE HELL IS THAT POSSIBLE????

[TJones]

Kink, do you disagree with the assault rifle ban because you just don't think a law abiding American should have the right to bear any arm he likes, or you think that a ban will keep them out of the hands of criminals ?

[moni]

Kink, do you disagree with the assault rifle ban because you just don't think a law abiding American should have the right to bear any arm he likes, or you think that a ban will keep them out of the hands of criminals ?

Mr. Jones, Obama isn't a Muslim and you know it. However, do you understand that there are thousands of Muslims living in this country and also we have many Muslims fighting in our military. I have many friends who are Buddists. Our country is a wonderful mix of many different beliefs and a President must represent all of these people equally. He doesn't get to pick and choose. Americans of all faiths trust that our President will be fair and treat all people equally. Don't be a Christian nut!!!

[ricco67]

ALL RIGHT THAT'S ENOUGH!!!!!!!!!!!!!

...

This thread is about the Election and the people involved, not TJ, Red, myself, or any other HAIF member. This is horse-crap to keep going on like this. Wayne ought to slam the door on the the whole damn thing, if it can't stay on topic. This baiting and name calling has gone too far IMHO. Red, TJ, and myself can argue for hours and never resort to name calling, what is so damn hard about it. I can even tolerate Niche and not call him a single name, usually because he has put me to sleep while giving me a long winded lesson in his version of economics, but none the less, it doesn't resort to name calling. SOMETHING HAS GOT TO GIVE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I agree, this debate has devolved into a rather childish form of name calling on BOTH sides.

The very nature of this little "Debate" is what drove me a away from the Democratic party and made me an Independent.

I know most of you have pretty much made up your minds on who you're voting for, so unless you see a dead child in someone's bed, I seriously doubt people will be changing the vote. The point of this discussion is to talk about the various policies of both candidates.

There is nothing wrong with voting against your party to vote with what is meshes with your views. This is called, "Compromise" which seems like there much lacking of on this system and nation.

Not having made a secret on WHY I chose the McCain/Palin ticket should show that while I'm democratic leaning, I will vote for what I think would be best FOR THE COUNTRY. I'm voting for a guy who has been REVILED by the GOP for not walking in step with their views and has been consistent doing that since he has been in office. Up until it became clear he would win the nomination, the GOP did everything they could to bash him repeatedly including calling him a "Liberal".

Doesn't that seem to you that he would probably work along both with both parties? Lieberman has been doing the same for DECADES and has been called just about everything in the book by the Democratic left.

C'mon, people. Grow up a bit...and yes, I'm talking with both sides.

This attack on what one believes as far as their faith goes has really disgusted me, I've said my peace on that and let it go.

But I'm going to ask everyone who picked a side to pick the "appropriate" banner AND issue a bit of a challenge;

I have stated MY issue with McCain/Palin and critical of THEIR views, yet I'm voting for them.

What problem do YOU have against your own canidate? If you don't have a solid answer, then YOU are truly drinking the coolaid that is laced with something.

you too, TJ.

C'mon people, act like grownups.

EDIT: An oopsie or two.

[west20th]

Kink, do you disagree with the assault rifle ban because you just don't think a law abiding American should have the right to bear any arm he likes, or you think that a ban will keep them out of the hands of criminals ?

So you think a law abiding citizen should have the right to bear any arms that he likes? Explosives? Tanks? SAM's? I know that these are extremes but this shows a line has to be drawn somewhere.

[TJones]

Mr. Jones, Obama isn't a Muslim and you know it. However, do you understand that there are thousands of Muslims living in this country and also we have many Muslims fighting in our military. I have many friends who are Buddists. Our country is a wonderful mix of many different beliefs and a President must represent all of these people equally. He doesn't get to pick and choose. Americans of all faiths trust that our President will be fair and treat all people equally. Don't be a Christian nut!!!

Thanks moni, I will try very hard not to be . No, I don't know that Obama is NOT a Muslim, what makes you so sure that he is not ? Can you name me another Presidential candidate that Farahkhan himself has openly supported ? Muslims are very careful in who they lend their praise to. I am sure Farahkhan had the Nation of Islam do their homework before endorsing Obama as they are for all things that only are for the benefit of Allah. If being Muslim is not so bad, like I have admitted, that it is NOT, then why was Obama so quick to denounce him ? Obama has too many open ends as to the question of his faith, in his writings, in his interviews. If you have read ANY of my previous posts on here, you will see for yourself that I am far away from being a "Christian nut", as I don't support Palin policy either.

[Mark F. Barnes]

You can ban weapons all the way down to a common butter knife, you are dreaming and living in fantasy land if you think it will make us safer. Do you not understand that criminals don't go to the local Academy Sporting Goods to buy their weapons? They are criminals, they are already banned from them having anything over a 4 inch pocket knife. Yet they still have them. Why you ask? BECAUSE THEY ARE CRIMINALS, AND THAT's WHAT THEY DO, BREAK THE LAW!!!

Weapons ban for the sake of getting them off the streets is the biggest farce known to mankind. Crack is illegal and they still have it. Heroin is illegal and they still have that. Are we getting it yet. Banning weapons is nothing more that violating the second amendment rights of those that obtain weapons LEGALLY. Plain and simple. Do I own any assault weapons, yes I do. I also hold a Class "A" FFL and can legally do so. I also hold a concealed handgun permit. I have never robbed anyone, but I have stopped someone from being robbed. My father was a peace officer for over 60 years, I have nothing but respect for the law, and have little tolerance for those that don't.

[TJones]

So you think a law abiding citizen should have the right to bear any arms that he likes? Explosives? Tanks? SAM's? I know that these are extremes but this shows a line has to be drawn somewhere.

Absolutely, why can't I own a handgrenade ? If I have the money, as long as I am not using it to rob a bank or blow up my rival gang's house. What is the problem. The difference is law abiding citizens won't use AK-47s, Dynamite, Tanks, and SAMs to destroy or rob their fellow citizens.

[Mark F. Barnes]

So you think a law abiding citizen should have the right to bear any arms that he likes? Explosives? Tanks? SAM's? I know that these are extremes but this shows a line has to be drawn somewhere.

The average John Q Citizen can't legally own any of those things you just mentioned. The paperwork to legally aquire any one of those items would blind you. Criminals however can own any of those things illegally, and no paperwork whatsoever.

[Highway6]

perhaps the left's desire to take away all our guns is the ultimate sign of surrender.

How left, can on one hand you complain and moan about Bush, no better than Hitler, leading our country down a dangerous path, draped in the flag to fascist rule....

and on the other hand say, screw the 2nd amendment and its intent for the people to maintain their right to protect themselves from a government gone wrong, let us throw away the only means to protect ourselves from that fascist rule.

[moni]

Thanks moni, I will try very hard not to be . No, I don't know that Obama is NOT a Muslim, what makes you so sure that he is not ? Can you name me another Presidential candidate that Farahkhan himself has openly supported ? Muslims are very careful in who they lend their praise to. I am sure Farahkhan had the Nation of Islam do their homework before endorsing Obama as they are for all things that only are for the benefit of Allah. If being Muslim is not so bad, like I have admitted, that it is NOT, then why was Obama so quick to denounce him ? Obama has too many open ends as to the question of his faith, in his writings, in his interviews. If you have read ANY of my previous posts on here, you will see for yourself that I am far away from being a "Christian nut", as I don't support Palin policy either.

I'm sorry, I shouldn't have called you a nut. It was rude of me. I'm glad you don't support Palin.

[west20th]

You can ban weapons all the way down to a common butter knife, you are dreaming and living in fantasy land if you think it will make us safer. Do you not understand that criminals don't go to the local Academy Sporting Goods to buy their weapons? They are criminals, they are already banned from them having anything over a 4 inch pocket knife. Yet they still have them. Why you ask? BECAUSE THEY ARE CRIMINALS, AND THAT's WHAT THEY DO, BREAK THE LAW!!!

Weapons ban for the sake of getting them off the streets is the biggest farce known to mankind. Crack is illegal and they still have it. Heroin is illegal and they still have that. Are we getting it yet. Banning weapons is nothing more that violating the second amendment rights of those that obtain weapons LEGALLY. Plain and simple. Do I own any assault weapons, yes I do. I also hold a Class "A" FFL and can legally do so. I also hold a concealed handgun permit. I have never robbed anyone, but I have stopped someone from being robbed. My father was a peace officer for over 60 years, I have nothing but respect for the law, and have little tolerance for those that don't.

Edit......

[ricco67]

I've always been a believer in the 2nd Ammendment (another thing that drove some of my democratic friends crazy), but I do believe in the TYPES of guns should be sold to individuals and do a stringent background check before selling a handgun. I have serious doubts of why anyone in their right mind would have a use of an M16 or AK47.

People with a violent crime conviction, I believe should not be armed. That's just stupid.

Heavily penalize those that commit a crime with a gun. They use a gun, tack on 10 years, they fire it, 20 years. Seems reasonable for me.

[TJones]

I've always been a believer in the 2nd Ammendment (another thing that drove some of my democratic friends crazy), but I do believe in the TYPES of guns should be sold to individuals and do a stringent background check before selling a handgun. I have serious doubts of why anyone in their right mind would have a use of an M16 or AK47.

People with a violent crime conviction, I believe should not be armed. That's just stupid.

Heavily penalize those that commit a crime with a gun. They use a gun, tack on 10 years, they fire it, 20 years. Seems reasonable for me.

That is a good point, why would anyone other than military have a use for them ? Doesn't mean that law abiding citizens who have already paid for these weapons once, shouldn't have access to them. They made Humvees accessable to us, and they can kill just as easily as a gun. What is the use of having that big gas guzzling machine on the road ? There are alot of things in the world that there really is no use for, but we buy them anyways because of the "cool factor" and there is a "cool factor" with having that type of weaponry in your possesion, knowing that it is locked up in your gun safe and it is there in case you need it.

[Mark F. Barnes]

I've always been a believer in the 2nd Ammendment (another thing that drove some of my democratic friends crazy), but I do believe in the TYPES of guns should be sold to individuals and do a stringent background check before selling a handgun. I have serious doubts of why anyone in their right mind would have a use of an M16 or AK47.

People with a violent crime conviction, I believe should not be armed. That's just stupid.

Heavily penalize those that commit a crime with a gun. They use a gun, tack on 10 years, they fire it, 20 years. Seems reasonable for me.

Agreed. I have no use for a M-16, (they're basically junk in my book) not a fan of an AK-47 either. However I do own an FN-FAL, of which I am a big fan. As well as a Barrett Light-fifty, and HK-416 and HK-USC. I do consider myself to be in my right mind most of the time.

Now for the facts as they sit today.

1. A thorough background check is done on anyone who buys any type of firearm, period.

2. No convicted felon can buy a firearm period.

3. An aggravated offense (crime against a person involving a weapon, even a knife or baseball bat) is punishable up to life in Prison. Of this sentence there is no early release for good behavior. you will do 80% of the sentence given to you. If they get a 99 years sentence they will do 79 years of it flat. If you kill someone during the act of committing a felony, you got two choices, Life or Death. There is no plea bargain really for Capital Murder. So the laws are pretty tough, prosecutors just need to apply them and quit plea bargaining lower sentences to streamline the court system. If you commit a crime involving a weapon, you should be ineligible for a plea bargain IMHO.

So we pretty much agree on that subject Ricco, just a very minor differences.

[ricco67]

....Doesn't mean that law abiding citizens who have already paid for these weapons once, shouldn't have access to them. They made Humvees accessable to us, and they can kill just as easily as a gun. What is the use of having that big gas guzzling machine on the road ? There are alot of things in the world that there really is no use for, but we buy them anyways because of the "cool factor" and there is a "cool factor" with having that type of weaponry in your possesion, knowning that it is locked up in your gun safe and it is there in case you need it.

I agree overall.

The thing about the Hummer is that people got them. Cool, I couldn't care less, but you can't use it to hold up a liquor store. Even though I can't STAND hummers overall (they have their place in society...just not in the city), but people have the right to use it. The difference is that if people use it in the wrong way, most of the time it results in a financial hardship to the owner. If a person misuses a gun, someone gets hurt/killed.

Agreed. I have no use for a M-16, (they're basically junk in my book) not a fan of an AK-47 either. However I do own an FN-FAL, of which I am a big fan. As well as a Barrett Light-fifty, and HK-416 and HK-USC. I do consider myself to be in my right mind most of the time.

Now for the facts as they sit today.

1. A thorough background check is done on anyone who buys any type of firearm, period.

2. No convicted felon can buy a firearm period.

3. An aggravated offense (crime against a person involving a weapon, even a knife or baseball bat) is punishable up to life in Prison. Of this sentence there is no early release for good behavior. you will do 80% of the sentence given to you. If they get a 99 years sentence they will do 79 years of it flat. If you kill someone during the act of committing a felony, you got two choices, Life or Death. There is no plea bargain really for Capital Murder. So the laws are pretty tough, prosecutors just need to apply them and quit plea bargaining lower sentences to streamline the court system. If you commit a crime involving a weapon, you should be ineligible for a plea bargain IMHO.

So we pretty much agree on that subject Ricco, just a very minor differences.

I agree with you, but my issue is that the "Time" should be automatic and non-negotiable, particularly if you take past history taken into account.

I'm aware of the laws as they currently are, but I would liked them to ban certain guns like the very ones you mentioned unless they can document WHY they need them, submit sample shots to the Government, etc. Living in some of the most rural parts of Texas and the border region is VERY understandable, but if they commit a crime WITH that weapon, then do some serious crime.

The NRA gets on my nerves for not wanting some common sense laws.

[KinkaidAlum]

perhaps the left's desire to take away all our guns is the ultimate sign of surrender.

How left, can on one hand you complain and moan about Bush, no better than Hitler, leading our country down a dangerous path, draped in the flag to fascist rule....

and on the other hand say, screw the 2nd amendment and its intent for the people to maintain their right to protect themselves from a government gone wrong, let us throw away the only means to protect ourselves from that fascist rule.

Are you really saying that the only way to protect ourselves from fascist rule is to buy guns and start shooting?

[TJones]

Are you really saying that the only way to protect ourselves from fascist rule is to buy guns and start shooting?

Instead of asking more questions, can you answer some first ? I refer you to post #1510

[Highway6]

Are you really saying that the only way to protect ourselves from fascist rule is to buy guns and start shooting?

You intend to overthrow the military with puppies and rainbows ??

[memebag]

Instead of asking more questions, can you answer some first ? I refer you to post #1510

That's some great advice! Will you finally answer the question I asked in post 1498?

[KinkaidAlum]

Instead of asking more questions, can you answer some first ? I refer you to post #1510

I have to admit that I've been skipping your posts since they deal mostly with Obama is a Muslim rants. Sorry.

Yes, I do agree with an assault weapons ban. There is absolutely no reason the average person should have access to assault weapons. You'd have to show a serious special need IMO in order to obtain them. The Founding Fathers couldn't have envisioned such weaponry.

I do not agree with a total ban on firearms. Law-abiding citizens should have access to them AFTER they clear background checks and take a firearms safety course from a licsensed weapons dealer.

You intend to overthrow the military with puppies and rainbows ??

Puppies and rainbows would be about as effective as Joe T. Nascar rushing the Pentagon with his huntin' rifle.

The way to STOP fascism is to hold leaders accountable. We're doing a horrible job of it right now since we've allowed an illegal war, changes to the Constitution, gutting of the Justice Department, and expansion of powers to the executive branch. Education is the best defense against a rise in fascism but we Americans are growing lazy.

[TJones]

That's some great advice! Will you finally answer the question I asked in post 1498?

I did answer you with posts #1501 and #1504.

May I suggest you go to your local library and check out Hooked On Phonics, or Mark said you can borrow his copy.

BTW, KINK, I want to apologize, I was a little rude with my asking, I tried to edit to rephrase it politely, and it didn't take somehow. I wanted to add a PLEASE and remove the word SOME from that.