The Heights Dry Zone

[J008]

Because of the law, Kroger's will probably let the store decline until it's basically a homeless shelter for food. It's almost that bad already.

The lack of booze will actually attract homeless people ?

[s3mh]

I think there is an old supreme court decision that says that it would take a special "opinion election" (not sure what that would be today) to repeal the dry restriction. Most interestingly, the "opinion election" would have to take place within the original boundaries of the City of Houston Heights that was annexed to the City of Houston way back when.

From annexation to present, I think the prohibition has been more of a benefit than a burden to date. But for prohibition, there would have been a lot of dumpy cantinas and ice houses all over the Heights that would have made it much harder to get people to invest in revitalizing the area. Also, the few "wet" areas are seeing a very rapid re-vitalization because there are few other opportunities in the Heights. So, on White Oak, an area with a bunch of run down old store fronts is now a nice little restaurant/bar district.

Moving forward, the burden/benefit of the restriction begins to turn in the other direction. While I doubt Beck's will close any time soon, once the "wet" areas fill up, there will definitely be dry areas that could see some development but for the restriction. Ultimately, I doubt residents would ever support a repeal for fear that the closest busy street could turn into White Oak and 6th St. Maybe the solution is for an orderly repeal of just a small portion of the Heights at a time in conjunction with a plan to accomodate the parking, noise, etc. that comes with bars and restaurants. But such foresight has never been a feature of the City of Houston.

[mcook2002]

Also, the new Becks Prime will probably close down because they can't sell beer and wine like all the other Becks in Houston, resulting in poor sales.

hahahahaha. someone bring me a stretcher.

[MOpens]

Wow, lot's of good stuff in this thread.

First, I love the prohibition. I live close enough to walk to White Oak, but far enough away that my street is way down the list of places to park for those visiting the new bars and restaurants.

Second, the thought that the prohibition is putting Kroger on 20th out of business and will do the same to Becks is laughable. Kroger has many more problems with that store than just the inability to sell booze, and Becks is a big boy - they knew what they were getting into.

Third, I love BYOB - even with a corkage fee, it is still the cheapest drink in town, and I get more say in choosing my poison. And as far as BYOB resulting in more drunkenness, I have a tough time understanding that - I am going to empty the bottle whether I brought or I bought it!

Fourth, I second the point that we should focus on getting rid of silly blue laws. Occassionally, on a Sunday morning trip to a Heights grocery store, I am reminded of my college days in New Orleans when you could go to the store on Sunday morning and buy cereal, eggs, milk, OJ, coffee, and a bottle of your favorite poison. One stop shopping!

[RedScare]

s3mh, it would be a simple local option election such as those held routinely in other dry areas wishing to join the 21st century. A petition asking that the option be placed on the ballot is presented. Once verified, the issue is placed on the next ballot. Only those within the dry boundaries may vote. A simple majority is needed.

I hate that good restaurant streets, such as White Oak, 11th, 20th and Yale, and even Heights, are summarily deemed dry. But, I doubt that it will change. This neighborhood loves to believe in myths, and wet/dry myths are some of the best.

EDIT: I must express my amusement at those who favor prohibition (in the Heights), and yet, oppose prohibition (on Sunday). There is a word for that.

[J008]

EDIT: I must express my amusement at those who favor prohibition (in the Heights), and yet, oppose prohibition (on Sunday). There is a word for that.

I am against prohibition in the heights or on sundays, but I am pro-zoning and the "dry heights" accomplishes some of that goal while leaving dozens of decent and diverse drinkeries within walking distance.

If you are having trouble finding a drink in the heights then move closer to white oak.

As far as the freedom to do what you please, The city's parking requirements are a biger obstacle than the heights ordinace.

Additionally, a "wet heights" would still be guarded by the prohibition around churches and schools (which because of the zoning effect are largely in the dry areas).

[RedScare]

You seem to have read much into my post. Though I did not complain of trouble finding a drink, it is probably because I live on the edge of the dry area, and am in walking distance of numerous establishments. I rode my bike to watch a game at one on Saturday. I've walked home from them more than once. I do enjoy my freedom, and have complained loudly that my Heights neighbors love to infringe upon it often. I've never complained about parking, and do not place rocks in front of my house (in case you wondered.) My gripe is that only one block of White Oak and 11th are wet, while most of those streets are prohibited from serving alcohol. Not being a prude, I'd like to see those "historic" buildings turned into restaurants and pubs, as opposed to some of the junk retail that ends up in there now. But, that is my opinion. Clearly, there are a few dozen people that enjoy those rundown shops, and the dry area ensures that nothing more profitable will replace them. That's what prohibition and zoning does, even on days other than Sunday. Remember those wet/dry myths I talked about earlier? They apply to zoning as well.

[sonic0boom]

So, why is Beck's Prime not able to go the club membership route like Shade, Down House, etc?

[RedScare]

So, why is Beck's Prime not able to go the club membership route like Shade, Down House, etc?

Paperwork nightmare, especially for a dast casual place selling one beer.

[heights_yankee]

Paperwork nightmare, especially for a dast casual place selling one beer.

Which means they probably think the location will be successful enough, even without liquor sales. If booze was the only way that store would be profitable, they would have done the paperwork. That's why Downhouse did- it's essential to their business.

The new retail going in on White Oak is not crappy. Write Now is a great little store and the record shop going in there will be nice as well. Culture Pilot has a nice office and, while I've never been, people rave about We Heart Massage. Obsidian Art Space (which was my wedding photographer's studio before he moved to Houston Ave) is also a great addition to the street. Space City binding is family owned and operated, it has been in the Heights for over 20 years. Happy Fatz, a great eatery, is also in the dry zone and is BYOB. Revival Market, also in the dry zone.

And I agree that BYOB has little to do with drunkenness. If I'm out to get drunk, it doesn't matter if I bring or buy. It also doesn't matter if I bring or buy when I don't want to get drunk. Also, if I bring a bottle of my own wine, I might feel less bad about wasting a glass and leave it behind, where I always want to finish when I pay a 300% mark up.

[kylejack]

Also, the new Becks Prime will probably close down because they can't sell beer and wine like all the other Becks in Houston, resulting in poor sales.

They're choosing to open there, so I'm assuming they've considered that. I'm quite sure it's a minority of their sales at other locations.

[RedScare]

Which means they probably think the location will be successful enough, even without liquor sales. If booze was the only way that store would be profitable, they would have done the paperwork. That's why Downhouse did- it's essential to their business.

The new retail going in on White Oak is not crappy. Write Now is a great little store and the record shop going in there will be nice as well. Culture Pilot has a nice office and, while I've never been, people rave about We Heart Massage. Obsidian Art Space (which was my wedding photographer's studio before he moved to Houston Ave) is also a great addition to the street. Space City binding is family owned and operated, it has been in the Heights for over 20 years. Happy Fatz, a great eatery, is also in the dry zone and is BYOB. Revival Market, also in the dry zone.

And I agree that BYOB has little to do with drunkenness. If I'm out to get drunk, it doesn't matter if I bring or buy. It also doesn't matter if I bring or buy when I don't want to get drunk. Also, if I bring a bottle of my own wine, I might feel less bad about wasting a glass and leave it behind, where I always want to finish when I pay a 300% mark up.

Absolutely it is worth the paperwork when you sell $6 beer, $9 and up glasses of wine, and $8 and up cocktails. But, that is why there are only 2 of them. Reasonably priced places don't see the value in it, especially when they can simply open in a wet area and make the Heights residents drive to them. As for the new retail on White Oak, I'm not complaining. At least they don't cause a traffic problem, since no one is every there. No wonder people complain about stores people actually shop at.

[OutfieldDan]

Wow, lot's of good stuff in this thread.

First, I love the prohibition. I live close enough to walk to White Oak, but far enough away that my street is way down the list of places to park for those visiting the new bars and restaurants.

Second, the thought that the prohibition is putting Kroger on 20th out of business and will do the same to Becks is laughable. Kroger has many more problems with that store than just the inability to sell booze, and Becks is a big boy - they knew what they were getting into.

Third, I love BYOB - even with a corkage fee, it is still the cheapest drink in town, and I get more say in choosing my poison. And as far as BYOB resulting in more drunkenness, I have a tough time understanding that - I am going to empty the bottle whether I brought or I bought it!

Fourth, I second the point that we should focus on getting rid of silly blue laws. Occassionally, on a Sunday morning trip to a Heights grocery store, I am reminded of my college days in New Orleans when you could go to the store on Sunday morning and buy cereal, eggs, milk, OJ, coffee, and a bottle of your favorite poison. One stop shopping!

It's nice you love prohibition, but you live close enough to White Oak to participate in all that it offers. White Oak has developed nicely where it's wet and new investment has seriously improved the neighborhood. Not so with 19th St or 20th St. There's some investment but nowhere near what it needs to be attractive to patrons unless you prefer rundown antique stores, run down discount stores, etc. A case in point is the Krogers on 20th. The store is a dump and badly needs upgrading, but you can forget that because Krogers can invest their dollars elsewhere in a new store that sells all their products including beer and wine for a higher profit.

Becks won't last long. I've been there several times and the parking lot is mostly empty and so are the tables inside. I doubt they'll last a year and you can look forward to another abandoned business. They would do much better with their normal venue.

Isn't it hypocritical to promote BYOB,and also want to maintain prohibition? Most of the time I sit near a group that does this, they're obnoxiously loud and drunk. Their booze is too cheap and they drink it all - also because they're so cheap and the establishment cannot control their consumption. This causes them to NEVER LEAVE until every drop is gone. Then they get in their cars and swerve away too drunk to drive.

[heights_yankee]

Becks won't last long. I've been there several times and the parking lot is mostly empty and so are the tables inside. I doubt they'll last a year and you can look forward to another abandoned business. They would do much better with their normal venue.

Really? I go there about once a week with my kids. Last Wed night we had to sit outside even though it was so hot and muggy because there were no tables inside. There were at least 3 other tables on the patio as well. Every time we have been, they have been doing a good business, especially for sort-of-fast-food. Maybe instead of complaining, go in and have a burger. The staff is really nice.

[J008]

Becks won't last long. I've been there several times and the parking lot is mostly empty and so are the tables inside. I doubt they'll last a year and you can look forward to another abandoned business. They would do much better with their normal venue.

Even if Becks were wet, it really can't compete with other nearby booze\burger centric places like Christians, Hubcap, Onion\Cedar Creek, The Counter, 5 guys, Distillary 2520, or even a Max's or Ruggles ( I wish I could include King Biscuit on this list, but neither their great draft selection nor the full bar could keep them afloat)

On the other hand Becks is about the closest thing to a "family friendly" burger place around. As much as I hate the idea of "family friendly" the heights is full of stroller pushers and their spawn. If this place had a gated playground a la Lupe Tortilla on 59, then they would have no trouble staying busy ( and the smoking and drinking crowd at the other places would be that much freer)

Becks has a dozen Houston locations and will probably get by without a special election and repeal of 100 yo annexation rules. Plus I am still waiting for restaurant \ retail at Stude-main \ 20th Cavalcade, there are plenty of west spots there.

There are also many longstanding and\or successful restaurants in the dry heights that do just fine (Chilosos, Dry Creek, Vietnam Restaurant, Thai Spice, Colinas, half a dozen taquerias and bakeries on yale, that chinese restaurant on 11th thats been their forever, the taqueria across from blue line thats been their forever, Pinks, Lolas, Da Capo's)

Oh yeah and that burger spot on yale and 21st that's been there forever.

[J008]

Becks won't last long. I've been there several times and the parking lot is mostly empty and so are the tables inside. I doubt they'll last a year and you can look forward to another abandoned business. They would do much better with their normal venue.

On second thought, Becks is too close to a church to serve alcohol anyway. They are also probably too close to Hamilton Middle as well.

If booze was on their mind they'd be hard pressed to pick a worse location.

[SilverJK]

I think any pub (brewpub, beer garden, irish pub, etc) on 19th-20th would be awesome, and make a killing. I would love to see something like that (geared towards locals) come to the 'hood. Get rid of these rediculous "dry" lawe and more importantly the rediculous blue laws. Sunday liqour sales would be a nice tax boost.

[RedScare]

On second thought, Becks is too close to a church to serve alcohol anyway. They are also probably too close to Hamilton Middle as well.

If booze was on their mind they'd be hard pressed to pick a worse location.

Dead on with the Hamilton Middle School problem. 1000 fee property line to property line. These two properties are likely within 400 feet of each other. Still, that is probably a very pricey parcel for an average volume burger joint.

[MOpens]

EDIT: I must express my amusement at those who favor prohibition (in the Heights), and yet, oppose prohibition (on Sunday). There is a word for that.

Glad you are amused. I call myself an "atheist that does not want his street to turn into a parking lot." Is that the word(s) you were looking for?

[MOpens]

It's nice you love prohibition, but you live close enough to White Oak to participate in all that it offers. White Oak has developed nicely where it's wet and new investment has seriously improved the neighborhood. Not so with 19th St or 20th St. There's some investment but nowhere near what it needs to be attractive to patrons unless you prefer rundown antique stores, run down discount stores, etc. A case in point is the Krogers on 20th. The store is a dump and badly needs upgrading, but you can forget that because Krogers can invest their dollars elsewhere in a new store that sells all their products including beer and wine for a higher profit.

Becks won't last long. I've been there several times and the parking lot is mostly empty and so are the tables inside. I doubt they'll last a year and you can look forward to another abandoned business. They would do much better with their normal venue.

Isn't it hypocritical to promote BYOB,and also want to maintain prohibition? Most of the time I sit near a group that does this, they're obnoxiously loud and drunk. Their booze is too cheap and they drink it all - also because they're so cheap and the establishment cannot control their consumption. This causes them to NEVER LEAVE until every drop is gone. Then they get in their cars and swerve away too drunk to drive.

"Love prohibition"? That's a stretch. I enjoy the indirect results of the Heights being dry.

Move closer to White Oak.

I said it before - Becks knew what they were getting into.

I do not see the hypocrisy. I am not supporting a dry area because I do not want people to drink. Now that would be hypocritical. I am not sure where you are going that has the BYOB problem. I have not experienced the same problems you have. I guess we frequent different establishments.

[MOpens]

Sunday liqour sales would be a nice tax boost.

This is an interesting point. I have seen studies that support both sides of this argument. Your position assumes that Sunday liquor sales would increase overall purchases, as opposed to just shifting existing purchases. Also, smaller mom and pop liquor stores tend to like no sales on Sunday - they perceive it as forcing them to incur additional expenses, and if all that happens is the shifting of existing purchases, then they lose. Or worse yet, they argue, some or all of their customers cease to be their customers.

My issue with blue laws is more about my fond distaste for the history of how they came about (see my response to Red) and the lack of flexibility (e.g., last minute Sunday morning pool party, no beer).

[MOpens]

Dead on with the Hamilton Middle School problem. 1000 fee property line to property line. These two properties are likely within 400 feet of each other. Still, that is probably a very pricey parcel for an average volume burger joint.

I wonder how good of a deal Becks got on that property. HCAD records show the appraisal peaking at 702K in 2009, and dropping to 471K in 2011. My bet is JPMorgan was very anxious to get that parcel out of their hands.

[Marksmu]

The new retail going in on White Oak is not crappy. Write Now is a great little store and the record shop going in there will be nice as well

I laughed so hard at that - a record store! hahahaha - I can't think of a worse new business venture...perhaps they should sell cord based phones as well? Maybe pagers?

[JJxvi]

Talking about getting this repealed is a waste of time and will never happen. There's too significant a portion of the population that will embrace any possible way for the neighborhood to be "different" from other hoods regardless of which way the pros/cons fall or the result of any kind of sensible discussion.

[s3mh]

I laughed so hard at that - a record store! hahahaha - I can't think of a worse new business venture...perhaps they should sell cord based phones as well? Maybe pagers?

The kids today actually like records. They get out these disc jockey set ups and make music with old records. The kids love to plunge through old records to find sounds, beats, chords, meldoies etc. to use when they disc jockey (the kids call it "DJ"-ing). They can actually come up with dance tracks in real time using old records. And there are a fair number of people who are ardent collectors of old vinyl recordings. A record store isn't something that will make anyone crazy rich, but if you have a lot of good stuff and get a following with the DJs and collectors, you can have a very solid business.

[J008]

The kids today actually like records. They get out these disc jockey set ups and make music with old records. The kids love to plunge through old records to find sounds, beats, chords, meldoies etc. to use when they disc jockey (the kids call it "DJ"-ing). They can actually come up with dance tracks in real time using old records. And there are a fair number of people who are ardent collectors of old vinyl recordings. A record store isn't something that will make anyone crazy rich, but if you have a lot of good stuff and get a following with the DJs and collectors, you can have a very solid business.

The big box store full of CD's is dead, but a 1 to 2,000 sqft store specializing in vinyl will probably do just fine. Especially with the foot traffic now on white oak, it is probably in a better spot than cactus (which appears to be doing just fine, though free beer helps).

Though, I do agree they should have opened a burger joint there (since it is dry) then we'd try and change the law to faciliate them.

A couple recent articles on vinyl record sales

http://www.usatoday.com/money/industries/retail/2011-02-25-vinyl25_ST_N.htm

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/10/07/arts/music/wfmu-and-superstar-dj-record-fairs-collectors-paradises.html

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/04/18/nyregion/brooklyn-factory-gives-second-life-to-used-records.html

[SilverJK]

The kids today actually like records. They get out these disc jockey set ups and make music with old records. The kids love to plunge through old records to find sounds, beats, chords, meldoies etc. to use when they disc jockey (the kids call it "DJ"-ing). They can actually come up with dance tracks in real time using old records. And there are a fair number of people who are ardent collectors of old vinyl recordings. A record store isn't something that will make anyone crazy rich, but if you have a lot of good stuff and get a following with the DJs and collectors, you can have a very solid business.

lol, please tell me this post was made in jest.

[SilverJK]

Talking about getting this repealed is a waste of time and will never happen. There's too significant a portion of the population that will embrace any possible way for the neighborhood to be "different" from other hoods regardless of which way the pros/cons fall or the result of any kind of sensible discussion.

Haven't other neighborhoods done this already? I also remember previously that the places on White Oak couldn't serve hard liqour... that is only in the past what... 2 years?

[Marksmu]

The big box store full of CD's is dead, but a 1 to 2,000 sqft store specializing in vinyl will probably do just fine. Especially with the foot traffic now on white oak, it is probably in a better spot than cactus (which appears to be doing just fine, though free beer helps).

Though, I do agree they should have opened a burger joint there (since it is dry) then we'd try and change the law to faciliate them.

A couple recent articles on vinyl record sales

http://www.usatoday....inyl25_ST_N.htm

http://www.nytimes.c...-paradises.html

http://www.nytimes.c...ed-records.html

Without reading the links - Vinyl is a fad - its nostalgic for old folks, and the kids "DJing" could not possibly keep a store in business. I predict that the store does not even last one year unless it makes all its money on EBAY in which case what is the point of the storefront. Modern people are lazy and do not wish to carry around or store anything that takes up space...they use iphones, ipods, and the cloud now....vinyl is dead and the few people who collect or play them are a far cry for what it will take to keep a store in the heights in business...they see old homes and antique stores and they see their clientele - but despite the look of the heights from the curb - inside the homes its all flat panel tv and iphones....

[J008]

Without reading the links - Vinyl is a fad - its nostalgic for old folks, and the kids "DJing" could not possibly keep a store in business. I predict that the store does not even last one year unless it makes all its money on EBAY in which case what is the point of the storefront. Modern people are lazy and do not wish to carry around or store anything that takes up space...they use iphones, ipods, and the cloud now....vinyl is dead and the few people who collect or play them are a far cry for what it will take to keep a store in the heights in business...they see old homes and antique stores and they see their clientele - but despite the look of the heights from the curb - inside the homes its all flat panel tv and iphones....

I went to their one day preview, but didn't buy anything mainly because it was too busy.

There is also a bike store on white oak that seems to be doing well despite the wide spread acceptance of cars. New bank branches seem to pop up everywhere despite your ability to do almost everything via internet and ATM.

Considering that you can take a store that only sells cupcakes public (NASDAQ: CRMB), it really doesn't seem that far fetched.

The location is good and there are maybe 3 or 4 other similar stores inside the loop at most maybe 10,000 total sqft. The Houston vinyl store space is less than the cheese section at a single Kroger.