The Heights Dry Zone

[SaintCyr]

I know the boundries of this "dry" area but was wondering if anyone had heard of when this expires? I'm not sure if you can write "forever" into an ordinance? I have a buddy out of Oklahoma looking to open a steakhouse/sports bar and grill in the Heights along Yale between 11th and 20th... He asked me to do some digging but I'm not sure where to begin. The Heights Dry Zone.

[RedScare]

I believe it would stay dry until a special election is held to make it wet. I do not think the City can arbitrarily make it wet without the election. Even if it could, I seriously doubt that the City would be interested in doing so, without having the backing of residents of the dry area, a scenario that does not sound likely.

A better approach, given the relatively small area that is dry, would be to look for sites that are not in the dry area, such as Yale, north of 22nd, Studewood in its entirety, North Main, and any of the streets that cross Studewood, upt to a point 132 feet east of Oxford. There is a former icehouse on 11th that is vacant as we speak. It is across the street and a few hundred feet west of Berryhills. Because it was already licensed, a liquor license would be easy to obtain. The neighbors would not complain about a good restaurant/bar, given the icehouse that was there previously.

20th Street, near the N. Main intersection, is also a good location. And, of course, White Oak is already known as a restaurant row. Farmer's Ice House at White Oak and Houston Ave. is for sale.

Watch out for the schools. 1000 foot buffer for bars. If you have a site in mind, the City will tell you whether it falls in a school zone or not. Call planning dept.

[tmariar]

I have the same understanding - that a vote would be necessary to change the "dry" section of the Heights to "wet".

[cwrm4]

Farmer's Ice House at White Oak and Houston Ave. is for sale.

That would be a good location. Despite their high prices and medicore food, King Biscuit just around the corner really packs them in.

There is also a former service station on White Oak (toward Heights Blvd) with a "For Lease" sign out front.

[tanith27]

But don't you just have to become a (free) member of an establishment to bypass the dry ordinance or is that something entirely different? Sorry, I'm not familiar with the rules either. When I've ordered wine with dinner at Shade, I've had to sign up to be a 'member' or something like that, which I thought was their way of getting around the dry restriction....

[RedScare]

But don't you just have to become a (free) member of an establishment to bypass the dry ordinance or is that something entirely different? Sorry, I'm not familiar with the rules either. When I've ordered wine with dinner at Shade, I've had to sign up to be a 'member' or something like that, which I thought was their way of getting around the dry restriction....

That is a way around the dry restriction, to become a private club. However, it is a paperwork nightmare for the owner. Better to open just outside the restricted area, if possible.

[Guest Marty]

I would not buy a property hoping it will become wet soon. My great uncle in Paducah TX bought half of the buildings in downtown Paducah in the late 70's/early 80's hoping to open bars. It's still dry in Cottle county.

Edited August 7, 2007 by Marty

[cottonmather0]

Yes, just as in any other dry jurisdiction in the state, it would require a vote to switch.

I have always thought that the "downtown" part of the heights could have a great restaurant scene; Shade is a very nice restaurant in a good location, after all. Problem is, the liquor restriction really scuttles all of that.

Furthermore. a burger joint with cold beer (ie not a bar that serves food like Onion Creek) would also be nice, too, further north.

[heights_yankee]

That is a way around the dry restriction, to become a private club. However, it is a paperwork nightmare for the owner. Better to open just outside the restricted area, if possible.

So is that what it is? I used to live in Dallas and the Restaurant Row in Irving is all dry in that you have to get this club thing. There are probably 20 restaurants in that area. I always wondered what made it so tough that you didn't just see the same thing here.

[RedScare]

So is that what it is? I used to live in Dallas and the Restaurant Row in Irving is all dry in that you have to get this club thing. There are probably 20 restaurants in that area. I always wondered what made it so tough that you didn't just see the same thing here.

Yeah, the "Club Card" (is that what they call it?) works at all of the member restaurants, and the group running the card does all of the paperwork, making it a bit more tolerable. I won't comment on the stupidity of having a dry ordinance with a loophole large enough to drive a Mack truck through.

[Guest Marty]

I know I have some Club Cards from East Montgomery county and some parts of Harris county, you just have to sign it, no charge.

[Moose]

I've always wondered what the rules and drawbacks were of the private club loophole in dry areas, so I decided to do a quick google and see what was out there.

This article explains it to some degree:

http://sidedish.dmagazine.com/2008/07/09/r...embership-mean/

Here is one from chron.com that talks about dry areas turning wet. Apparently in Houston it would take a city-wide petition:

http://www.chron.com/CDA/archives/archive....id=2006_4201553

[TexasVines]

right before I lived in Denton they used to close all clubs and bars on all nights of the week at midnight......which meant that people had just enough time to jump in their car half buzzed and haul ass down to dallas and do an hour to an hour and a half of power drinking before getting back in their car and swerving home back up I-35 and they were usually in a hurry because it was 2:30am when they left out of dallas

when they finally changed the rules to close at 2am there was a marked decrease in the number of fatal late night high speed wrecks on I-35 north

in Lubbock it is wet for bars and clubs until 2am, but the city is dry for liquor and beer.....the prices are much higher even though logic would say fewer stores in one area selling a high volume would be cheaper.....but logic does not play in things like liquor sales and stupid wet dry laws

all it really causes is more people to need to get on the road and drive 15 miles to get some more booze when they are already buzzed....people that are for memberships and for dry areas make the false argument that money spent on a membership is that much less spent on booze or that the drive to the stores means people will be less likely to drink as often because of the extra effort

again this is so far from the truth it is laughable.....there are really three types of drinkers.....responsible, irresponsible, and total drunks

responsible drinkers will go to the store and stock up on what they need for a period of time and will go home and drink it over that period of time......so nothing accomplished

irresponsible drinkers will go to the store.....stock up on what they feel they need for a period of time and then promptly go home and consume way more of it because it is right there in the fridge VS even a quick trip to the store around the corner.....and then when drunk they will use impaired judgement to make an excuse to go to the store anyway......or next time at the store they will do the same thing again or they will buy a bit more to make sure thay have enough....and proceed to drink it all anyway....so what you end up with is people actually drinking more at one time than they would have if they could just go get a sixer right around the corner and take it home

drunks will use the store when it is open if it is close by and then even if in wet areas they will use the bootlegger......all the wet areas I have ever lived in had bootleggers...because bootleggers do not serve people that do not have access to alcohol because of stupid laws.....bootleggers serve people who have an addiction and need it to be fed in small increments.....if a drunk can get to the store they will stock up and do their power drinking......but for them it is about being functionally drunk all day until you can't go any longer and you finally pass out....it is not about being stupid drunk for a few hours and passing out and waking up belligerent and hung over because they did not spread their addictive substance out for the period of time they planned....so drunks will actually use the bootlegger as a sort of regulating device.....they have to walk there or get a ride......then get back home to drink......then it takes effort and time to repeat that process....where as getting down to the wet area they stock up and power drink and then they are belligerent and hung over for half the time they wished they were still drunk

so in an area that is all wet......they can use the store and use the bootlegger later after hours......and the bootlegger will also sell to anyone with cash no matter how stumbling drunk and even if stumbling driving.....but what happens in a dry area is you end up where drunks can only make use of the bootlegger.....and the bootlegger prefers to work under the cover of night and darkness.....so eventually your drunks are pushed into the night hours to live and breath because they need to wait to get their functional buzz on until the bootlegger is open.....you end up with drunken night time zombies creeping all around your town at night going from place to place to feed their addiction.....the bad part of this is in the day that drunk is out and visible and much easier for people to see and deal with or to prevent from commiting petty crimes to get some money.....when you get them into the cover of night they will suddenly be harder to spot and they will be more likely to start to think about breaking into a car or mugging the person out late that they come across by chance.....and because they are paying more for the service of the bootlegger......they will need to get the cash from somewhere.....and because they have pushed into the night that makes even a day labor job less likely and it makes panhandling and begging a non existent opportunity......so that leaves breaking into cars and garages and muggings ect.

in the end dry laws make more people be on the road more often drunk and it increases consumption and it increases people being marginalized into the might when they are free to creep around and are more likely to commit petty crimes

the only ones that suffer are those that are responsible and pay more for the same amount of booze they would have consumed, and those that are innocent victims of drunk drivers and petty crimes....and it actually further marginalized the irresponsible and the addicted because it pushes them to either have more booze available or for them to have to move further into the night and early morning to get their addiction fed

mission failed!

Edited August 5, 2008 by TexasVines

[cottonmather0]

I spent the first 10 years of my life in a dry county and thought it was normal for grownups to drive 20 miles to buy beer in Colorado City and stop at the Crossed Keys in Lubbock (outside the city limits) and load up on monthly trips.

[samiamj]

Just wondering, Does Kroger's on 20th Street sell alcohol?

[woodheightsguy]

Just wondering, Does Kroger's on 20th Street sell alcohol?

no

[Zippy]

We lived in Dallas a short while ago and east of downtown, near white rock lake was also a "dry" area.. However our apartment was right on the border of said dry area.. and there were 4 alcohol stores within walking distance.. as well as a sports bar and a quickie shop with beer/wine..

Massive FAIL if they were trying to keep booze out of the area.. There was plenty to be gotten and brought back..

the whole notion of dry areas is fallacy.. In California you can get your Jack D at the grocery store! On Sunday! (Not that I really want to compare california to Texas.. )

And also.. couldn't one get just a drunk in a "dry" area with a membership as in a wet area?

Edited August 6, 2008 by Zippy

[cottonmather0]

the whole notion of dry areas is fallacy.. In California you can get your Jack D at the grocery store! On Sunday! (Not that I really want to compare california to Texas.. )

This still freaks me out when I walk into a grocery store in California, btw. Don't know why, but my puritanical Texas streak just screams, "WRONG!" whenever I see hard liquor inside Safeway.

And also.. couldn't one get just a drunk in a "dry" area with a membership as in a wet area?

True, but then again it's a lot easier for the cops to know where to go to look for them!

[Arivechi]

This still freaks me out when I walk into a grocery store in California, btw. Don't know why, but my puritanical Texas streak just screams, "WRONG!" whenever I see hard liquor inside Safeway.

If you can buy cigarettes at a supermarket then why not beer and liquor?

[SaintCyr]

If you can buy cigarettes at a supermarket then why not beer and liquor?

Because when you smoke you dont crave a beer, however when you have a beer you crave a smoke! Duh! Wait... does...that..make. sense?

[pookrat]

The same in Louisianna. You can run to the convenience store at 7 a.m. on Sunday and get a bottle of Whiskey, carton of cigs, and ammo fer yer hunting trip. They will also sell ya a Jack and Coke through the drive up window if ya want it.

[crunchtastic]

The same in Louisianna. You can run to the convenience store at 7 a.m. on Sunday and get a bottle of Whiskey, carton of cigs, and ammo fer yer hunting trip. They will also sell ya a Jack and Coke through the drive up window if ya want it.

This is commerce the way god intended.

Once I was out in the Guadalupe Mountains with friends camping/hiking for a few days, and was delighted to find out I could cross the state line into Carlsbad NM and get a pony keg at the grocery store.

[Tiko]

Swamplot is blowing up on this one:

http://swamplot.com/the-city-runaround-and...4-23/#more-8487

[OutfieldDan]

What's the point of this rule anyway? Prohibition in the Heights dates back to 1918 and it's time to end it. I'm not sure if City Council has the authority to repeal the law or if a special election is necessary. Either way, the Heights would benefit without the law. Several restaurants circumvent the law with "club" rules, so it's ineffectual for them. The prohibition area is small, so all it does is inconvenience those of us who live here.

Grocery stores such as Krogers on 20th suffer by not being able to sell beer and wine. Without this law, it's a sure bet that Krogers will remodel the old store with a nice upgrade, and we all know how badly we need this.

[Urbannomad]

I would agree that it generally tends to hurt the bottom line of existing businesses and mostly dissuades new business from locating to the Heights... but I also think that for many residents that is exactly the point.

For the record I think the rule is silly and I live in "wet" Shady Acres.

Edit: By businesses I mean primarily restaurant/grocery type retail

Edited October 22, 2011 by Urbannomad

[heights_yankee]

I like it. As you mentioned, it's a pretty small swath of the overall neighborhood but I think it's just enough to keep the Heights from becoming Washington Ave. There are plenty of "wet" areas for new businesses so if businesses are not coming to the Heights only because of the small dry area, they're just not paying attention. I think the dry area will allow for more retail, otherwise we would just be strips and strips of restaurants and bars. I like to eat out but I like to buy things from local shops, too.

[Marksmu]

I like it. As you mentioned, it's a pretty small swath of the overall neighborhood but I think it's just enough to keep the Heights from becoming Washington Ave. There are plenty of "wet" areas for new businesses so if businesses are not coming to the Heights only because of the small dry area, they're just not paying attention. I think the dry area will allow for more retail, otherwise we would just be strips and strips of restaurants and bars. I like to eat out but I like to buy things from local shops, too.

I really do not think there is any fear of the heights becoming like Washington...The land cost has already pretty much taken care of that for you, and Washington is far too close already. The only problem I could see with this would be the problems related to parking. There simply is not enough parking for most places....I am all for allowing booze back into the Heights - I really see no reason for it to stay out....On second thought - I am particularly fond of BYOB - I get a far nicer bottle of wine for a fraction of what I normally pay.

[heights_yankee]

.I am all for allowing booze back into the Heights - I really see no reason for it to stay out....On second thought - I am particularly fond of BYOB - I get a far nicer bottle of wine for a fraction of what I normally pay.

There IS booze in the Heights. Lots of it. Come have a drink with me at the Shiloh sometime if you need proof

And agreed on the BYOB. Without the mini prohibition it wouldn't exist, so I am definitely thankful for that.

[OutfieldDan]

There IS booze in the Heights. Lots of it. Come have a drink with me at the Shiloh sometime if you need proof

And agreed on the BYOB. Without the mini prohibition it wouldn't exist, so I am definitely thankful for that.

Because of the law, Kroger's will probably let the store decline until it's basically a homeless shelter for food. It's almost that bad already. Also, the new Becks Prime will probably close down because they can't sell beer and wine like all the other Becks in Houston, resulting in poor sales. I don't think that BYOB is much of an advantage to the neighborhood. There aren't many that do that, and most of them get obnoxiously loud and drunk because their booze is cheap. Many don't leave until all the booze/wine/beer is gone making it problematic for the restaurant and other patrons. Restaurants are starting to add fees, as they should.

[J008]

I think the prohibition is great. It is de facto zoning for grocery/restaurants, which is leading Whiteoak \ studemont \ and to some extent washington to be zoned restaurant\entertainment districts. Additionally, the plethora of convenience stores serving 8 am tall boys is at least not next door to my house.

Once considering the number of churches and schools are taken into account I don't think there are a horrible lot of spots available. I would hazard that a person in the heights is never more than a mile from booze.

I'd much rather see someone put in the effort to repealing blue laws as they clearly harm the early brunch crowd.