METRORail Construction Drove Business Out Of Downtown

[KinkaidAlum]

Yeah you do. For your convenience, I've translated your PC-ridden rant into something intelligible. See below.

A ghetto is a neighborhood, not a person.

You're obviously describing nigg*rs. Just come out and say what you're already thinking.

Add to your calculus that rents went up to the point that many lower-volume "ordinary person" bars couldn't make it, and I have to agree with you. The presence of nigg*rs scares off honkies, especially pussified white males with penis envy and/or white guilt. It's white flight, plain and simple.

Ha, this is why I love The Niche. It's like a truth telling Mad-Lib!

[musicman]

Fulton's closure was a COH thing, not a METRO thing. Again, METRO discovered a pre-existing problem under Fulton's pavement, and COH came in and closed the street. I guess a school bus could've just fallen in later and we could've found out that way. There's a lot that METRO can be blamed for, but this isn't one of them. COH let Fulton deteriorate. If you'll notice--every street that was supposed to have a rail line on it has been allowed to go to crap by COH. It's almost like they figured that METRO was coming through one of these days anyway, so why do any improvements. See Dallas/Sampson/Scott in EaDo, Harrisburg, and North Main for example.

i'm not talking in the area of the sinkhole. i'm talking farther south.

[312]

i'm not talking in the area of the sinkhole. i'm talking farther south.

Eminent domain came to mind after reading Governor Aggie's very interesting point regarding streets/areas being let go due to L-Rail.

[Marksmu]

Yeah you do. For your convenience, I've translated your PC-ridden rant into something intelligible. See below.

A ghetto is a neighborhood, not a person.

You're obviously describing nigg*rs. Just come out and say what you're already thinking.

Add to your calculus that rents went up to the point that many lower-volume "ordinary person" bars couldn't make it, and I have to agree with you. The presence of nigg*rs scares off honkies, especially pussified white males with penis envy and/or white guilt. It's white flight, plain and simple.

There is a huge difference in being PC and just being offensive. Your post is not just wrong, its both offensive and inflammatory.

The thug appearance is not limited to any single demographic, and it is NOT as a previous poster stated part of any culture. The baggy clothes and sloppy look originated with the rap culture. It was cool to be "street", and it was a way for those who were "street" to conceal a weapon. Whether or not people of various classes (lower, middle, upper) wear this attire, it is not a part of any culture. It is a fad popularized by hip-hop music.

People who are concerned that others wearing this attire will reveal their concealed weapon and rob them, choose not to goto establishments where this is prevalent, or even to be in the vicinity of it. It has nothing to do with race at all. Most people recognize risks, and choose to go to places where there is a lower risk of something bad happening. It is not racist, it is not white flight, it is not poor white supremacists not wanting integration of their restaurants and bars....It is a choice to avoid the risk of being robbed, raped, or killed by someone who can easily conceal a weapon in their pants, or jacket.

Call it whatever you want, but racism, penis envy and white flight are all wrong. Its a choice based on perceived threats. Perceived threats that statistics time and time again prove to be real threats. I also choose not to vacation in Iran or Afghanistan, I guess I hate middle eastern people as well?

[kylejack]

There is not a lot of robbery in downtown, Marksmu, comparatively speaking.

[RedScare]

Call it whatever you want, but racism, penis envy and white flight are all wrong. Its a choice based on perceived threats. Perceived threats that statistics time and time again prove to be real threats. I also choose not to vacation in Iran or Afghanistan, I guess I hate middle eastern people as well?

It is pretty clear that you are unaware that Downtown Houston has the lowest crime rate in the city.

[AtticaFlinch]

Call it whatever you want, but racism, penis envy and white flight are all wrong. Its a choice based on perceived threats. Perceived threats that statistics time and time again prove to be real threats. I also choose not to vacation in Iran or Afghanistan, I guess I hate middle eastern people as well?

So... Downtown is Iraq? That's a stretch.

Not vacationing in Cozumel because a bunch of Arab-dressed individuals also vacation there would have been a better comparison.

There are so many categorically incorrect assumptions with your previous post I don't even know where to begin to address it. My mind is swimming in your abject determination to remain obtuse, but now I'm thinking, "So what?" If you don't want to come Downtown because you're frightened of some stereotypes in baggy clothes, then don't. Good riddance.

[Marksmu]

It is pretty clear that you are unaware that Downtown Houston has the lowest crime rate in the city.

My mistake there - I was not directly speaking about downtown at that moment....I should have been more clear. At that point I was talking about the perceived threat of individuals who choose to dress like thugs.

[AtticaFlinch]

My mistake there - I was not directly speaking about downtown at that moment....I should have been more clear. At that point I was talking about the perceived threat of individuals who choose to dress like thugs.

Perceived threats that statistics time and time again prove to be real threats.

So then, the baggy clothes have been statistically proven to be threats?

You must crap your BVDs every time you go to the Woodlands and some 16-year-old driving his mom's Denali pulls up next to you at a traffic light blaring some Jay-Z.

[kylejack]

Ive only been to Shays, Saucer, Mollys, State Bar, and Lone Star Salloon, but the last few times Ive been downtown these places have had significantly fewer people in them than when I used to frequent them in my younger days. Its my observation that people transitioned away from these downtown places when Midtown became more popular because there were fewer thugs, and there was more free parking in midtown.

I guess my question would be, if Midtown has fewer "thugs", then why would it have more robberies? Also, regarding parking, downtown is chock full of free street parking after 6 PM. Sometimes you might have to walk a block or two from your destination, but there's plenty of parking.

[TheNiche]

There is a huge difference in being PC and just being offensive. Your post is not just wrong, its both offensive and inflammatory.

Wasn't my post.

The thug appearance is not limited to any single demographic, and it is NOT as a previous poster stated part of any culture. The baggy clothes and sloppy look originated with the rap culture. It was cool to be "street", and it was a way for those who were "street" to conceal a weapon. Whether or not people of various classes (lower, middle, upper) wear this attire, it is not a part of any culture. It is a fad popularized by hip-hop music.

Baggy clothes look like an element of various subcultures to me. Only, since you've excluded "ordinary person" bars as a separate category, what's left in the downtown scene that you aren't happy with caters to a very specific socioeconomic profile with numerous and prominent demographic traits. Bearing that in mind, don't tell me that you aren't talking about nigg*rs. You may be squeamish with someone using the word "nigg*r", but that's just your compulsion to be PC and your white guilt showing.

People who are concerned that others wearing this attire will reveal their concealed weapon and rob them, choose not to goto establishments where this is prevalent, or even to be in the vicinity of it. It has nothing to do with race at all.

In other words, honkies get scared over the presence of nigg*rs and then they abandon a neighborhood, even if the neighborhood is safe, as RedScare pointed out. But that can't be racism or penis envy or white flight:

Call it whatever you want, but racism, penis envy and white flight are all wrong. Its a choice based on perceived threats.

You just said so. And we all know you aren't racist.

[Spades]

There is a huge difference in being PC and just being offensive. Your post is not just wrong, its both offensive and inflammatory.

The thug appearance is not limited to any single demographic, and it is NOT as a previous poster stated part of any culture. The baggy clothes and sloppy look originated with the rap culture. It was cool to be "street", and it was a way for those who were "street" to conceal a weapon. Whether or not people of various classes (lower, middle, upper) wear this attire, it is not a part of any culture. It is a fad popularized by hip-hop music.

You don't know what you're talking about. Hip-Hop IS a culture in our community. Please speak on what you know. Many of those people that you see lined up to enter clubs are indeed young educated people from various universities throughout the region. People from even as far as Mississippi and Louisiana to party in Houston for a weekend. I wear baggy clothes and big shirts and a fitted hat and I am FAR from a thug. Like it or not, anyone that has seen your posts in this thread will look at that as racial. You know nothing about these people but you judge them. Also,we don't wear our clothes big to conceal a weapon. That's rediculous to even think that and shows again you do not know what you are talking about. Can't speak for the few bad apples. But I know me and the people I know do not own a weapon and ever carried a weapon. We also never think about carrying a weapon. Big clothes, loud music, pop bottles, having a good time, loud djs and more are part of our culture whether you like it or not.

Also, there is NOTHING ghetto about it. I assure you have barely been to a ghetto if you make comments like that. If anyone's comments have been offensive and wrong, it has been your judgement on a community you know nothing about.

[sevfiv]

Hi guys.

Let's get back to rail and business downtown...

[RedScare]

Hi guys.

Let's get back to rail and business downtown...

Or not. The entire thread was based on a flawed premise.

[kdog08]

So how about them Astros? Spring training starting up soon.

[TheNiche]

So how about them Astros? Spring training starting up soon.

Hey, you heard the woman. Talk about downtown businesses like Marksmu and I or be quiet.

[AtticaFlinch]

So how about them Astros? Spring training starting up soon.

The dark-skinned players are scary.

Hey, you heard the woman. Talk about downtown businesses like Marksmu and I or be quiet.

...especially when they're Downtown.

[samagon]

oh man, I'm afraid to post in this thread. hahaha

I prefer to use the connotative definition of ghetto rather than the denotative definition, since it is so limited in use. maybe it is the time in which I grew up, but the word seems to have shifted definition from that which is described in the dictionary, to be more of a description of something that just generally sucks.

That place is ghetto.

That dudes car is ghetto.

The problem is though, that outside of people that use the word with the understanding of that connotative meaning it can be construed as being a racist comment, and certainly in the context of how it was written above, it sure does look pretty bad.

Anyway, downtown's club scene has come a long (very long way) from the days when I remember ecstasy rings, real all night raves, drug busts, most of them were around the Franklin (wasn't Spy one of the ones shut down?) area.

I think the downtown area has come a long way and has not gone backwards, but is continuing to move forward. The area around Market Square, the area around HP, around the ballpark. Downtown is a great place, but parking does suck (although it is not ghetto ).

[kylejack]

Drugs were not sold in Spy Club, but Spy Club served as a front for trafficking millions of dollars worth of ecstasy into the city, as well as The Hub. Spy Club is TOC now.

[312]

oh man, I'm afraid to post in this thread. hahaha

I prefer to use the connotative definition of ghetto rather than the denotative definition, since it is so limited in use. maybe it is the time in which I grew up, but the word seems to have shifted definition from that which is described in the dictionary, to be more of a description of something that just generally sucks.

That place is ghetto.

That dudes car is ghetto.

The problem is though, that outside of people that use the word with the understanding of that connotative meaning it can be construed as being a racist comment, and certainly in the context of how it was written above, it sure does look pretty bad.

Anyway, downtown's club scene has come a long (very long way) from the days when I remember ecstasy rings, real all night raves, drug busts, most of them were around the Franklin (wasn't Spy one of the ones shut down?) area.

I think the downtown area has come a long way and has not gone backwards, but is continuing to move forward. The area around Market Square, the area around HP, around the ballpark. Downtown is a great place, but parking does suck (although it is not ghetto ).

I agree with you. I hope that we can possibly agree that everyone has differences and that those differences can be considered or viewed as a positive and it should be expected in an area with so many people. I also believe it would go a long way for people to know about the demographics of the area, specifically near the courthouses in Old Market Square because it doesn't seem that the information about the demographics especially in this area gets out. The county employees 16,000 people (per their website) and at least 9,000 of them are employed by the courts in and around Old Market Square if not more because of the way the figures are broken down. Which means that a lot of them are actually down here on a daily basis and not just during a basketball game, not to mention that a baseball game has higher attendance and more games in the course of a year. The demographics in Old Market Square are comparable to other areas of downtown even the HP areas, if not better. Also believe that in looking at liquor sales on the street, and factoring that in especially "F. Scr" (downtown location) for example that street level retail is a great opportunity for businesses entering downtown, along with the strong retail density that is already in place in the vecinity of Old Market Square and Main Street. F.S. has higher liquor sales located at street level than most businesses not only in downtown but even other areas of the city, especially when factoring the size and market rents on the street! A business can pay a lot more but why pay higher rent when you can pay lower rent right on the street and have exposure, signage, comparable if not better demograhics, and where people can actually frequent your establishment on a regular basis that either live in the area or that actually live in the city , and maybe not just during a convention or if they are a tourist from out of town. California has 2nd level and 3rd level retail but I'm not a fan of it in Houston and especially without or with limited signage.I believe being located on street retail is more desireable, where there is signage and exposure, at a better value. MOST importantly why wouldn't those businesses want to locate on street level and potentially have higher liquor sales pound for pound, especially now that light rail is completed.

[kylejack]

Total Amount–$1,900.35

Showing 79 transactions

after 11/18/2008 matching Flying Saucer

Looks like FS is doing okay in liquor sales. Thanks mint.com for reminding me what a lush I am.

[samagon]

Damn man, Specs and a second refrigerator at your house will pay off in the long run!

[312]

Total Amount–$1,900.35

Showing 79 transactions

after 11/18/2008 matching Flying Saucer

Looks like FS is doing okay in liquor sales. Thanks mint.com for reminding me what a lush I am.

Per T.A.B.C. "The ABC" (ha-ha) Over: $212,000./month in sales...

[312]

Per T.A.B.C. "The ABC" (ha-ha) Over: $212,000./month in sales...

"Mixed Beverage Tax Receipts: 12-28 attached."

Find your favorite location downtown and then compare it to the rest of downtown.

Then, compare downtown places to other locations in different parts of the city.

If you are in business to make money how can being located at street level in downtown (if you are going to be downtown anyway),not be the place to be- all things considered.

bev12-28.txt

[sevfiv]

I couldn't get the text file to download right but here are all of the tax files available:

http://www.window.state.tx.us/taxinfo/taxfiles.html

[312]

I couldn't get the text file to download right but here are all of the tax files available:

http://www.window.state.tx.us/taxinfo/taxfiles.html

Remember to divide the amts. by app. (.14)

[smurf]

Prior to light-rail construction Downtown seemed "hotter than a two dollar pistol" to me. During light rail construction it seemed to drive and benefit business in Midtown and other areas. I have a feeling that as light rail expands into new areas of the city that downtown will perhaps have some of the same business driven back into the area that was driven out of the area during light rail construction. Are/Will businesses located in other areas of the city that are anticipating and preparing for the impact of light rail construction on their area consider moving/moving back into downtown as a good long term solution to the pending construction problems they might be facing?

Anyone else gets this logic? .... But this is exactly the irrational reasoning Anti-Rail folks have been saying for this past decade. I have lived in this area before and after rail and visited many a establishments before and after. Light rail has no real correlation to them. There are way too many other factors that contributed to the pre-rail fall, post-rail rise & fall, and now rise of downtown establishments.

Same thing applies to all the other rail lines including the Richmond line.

[Marksmu]

Drugs were not sold in Spy Club, but Spy Club served as a front for trafficking millions of dollars worth of ecstasy into the city, as well as The Hub. Spy Club is TOC now.

While interning at the Federal Courthouse we were required to observe an hour or two of jury trials daily....I, along with many other interns, watched this trial. It was already ongoing when I started, and lasted weeks...it was a very interesting trial. They had a very creative business model, and got busted because they got too big and got sloppy.

I still vividly remember the scream from the mother when the verdict was read. The son knew he was guilty, and just started taking off his expensive belt, shoes, and jacket and handed them over the rail to his wailing mother.

Nothing to do with downtown, but its a memory I will never forget.

[totheskies]

You don't know what you're talking about. Hip-Hop IS a culture in our community. Please speak on what you know. Many of those people that you see lined up to enter clubs are indeed young educated people from various universities throughout the region. People from even as far as Mississippi and Louisiana to party in Houston for a weekend. I wear baggy clothes and big shirts and a fitted hat and I am FAR from a thug. Like it or not, anyone that has seen your posts in this thread will look at that as racial. You know nothing about these people but you judge them. Also,we don't wear our clothes big to conceal a weapon. That's rediculous to even think that and shows again you do not know what you are talking about. Can't speak for the few bad apples. But I know me and the people I know do not own a weapon and ever carried a weapon. We also never think about carrying a weapon. Big clothes, loud music, pop bottles, having a good time, loud djs and more are part of our culture whether you like it or not.

Also, there is NOTHING ghetto about it. I assure you have barely been to a ghetto if you make comments like that. If anyone's comments have been offensive and wrong, it has been your judgement on a community you know nothing about.

+1 all the way.

This is not my "regular scene", but I have no qualms about going to an urban club on occasion. What Marksmu is likely not aware of is that it takes a lot of money and planning to be committed to urban fashion. A LOT. You have be fluent in the various trends like FuBu, Apple Bottom, House of Dereon, Ed Hardy, etc, and you have to know how to accessorize these trends and which one fits the best. Sometimes oversized or baggy pants complete the look, and sometimes they don't.

We are 21st century people, and we need to get over this hump that assumes black culture is below white culture, or that they're even so different in the first place. As a classical musician, I have this discussion with my colleagues at least once a week. Urban culture is a part of American culture, and very popular in many parts of the world.

And yeah, the club scene in downtown is steadily growing at all levels. People have yet to mention the recent additions at HP... Pete's Dueling Piano bar and Cork are already open... with Polk St. Pub on the way.

[N Judah]

with Polk St. Pub on the way.

So they decided not to cancel that?