METRORail Construction Drove Business Out Of Downtown

[JLWM8609]

while im in favor of rail, the houston light rail system is a joke. how many people does one of our mini-trains hold? Shoving people in, you are probably still not too far north of 100.

The current cars can carry 241 passengers.

aren't they switching to different cars that have higher capacity?

Yes. Before the new lines open, Metro will take delivery of some new cars which will carry 282 passengers.

[kylejack]

The current cars can carry 241 passengers.

I'd like to see just what a car with 241 passengers looks like. I'm quite sure we've been +20% on some rides, heh. You know its full when people get left behind at stations because there's no more sardine room to cram in.

[samagon]

I'd like to see just what a car with 241 passengers looks like. I'm quite sure we've been +20% on some rides, heh. You know its full when people get left behind at stations because there's no more sardine room to cram in.

I'd like to know how many people were packed into the rail car I was in when I went to the SB party, holy hell, if that thing had less than double capacity, I'd be surprised.

[ricco67]

I've said before, that when I went to the rodeo (or baseball), I sometimes did a headcount that was fairly close to 280-290 in a car. If you're not fond of close quarters, it wasn't the place to be! Supposedly the new versions are going are rated to hold 282 people per car, but I'm sure you can count on cramming a few more.

Edit: The current cars are said to hold about 241.

[RedScare]

while im in favor of rail, the houston light rail system is a joke. how many people does one of our mini-trains hold? Shoving people in, you are probably still not too far north of 100. And because of how the stations were built, we won't be able to add additional cars to move more people. more importantly, the line on Richmond will cause awful traffic for the major roads that it crosses--as others have pointed out, making people wait for mutiple signal lights so the mini-train can come through the intercetion is assine.

Hmmm...so, it is a joke because the train only holds 100 people. Only the reality is that a station is designed to handle a two-car set with a capacity of 482, soon to be 564. Congratulations, your numbers are only off by nearly 400%!

[htownproud]

have any of you ever lived in a city with real rail? rail that is actually used for something other than football games and the rodeo. for that matter, have you ever taken the rail in this city at a time other than that? there so few people on those mini-trains. if you think two rail cars is the equivalent of true rail, then there is no point arguing with you. that said, with such warped views of the economic implications of the houston rail system, you would be perfect to run metro or this city.

[312]

i doubt the business will go downtown. they were never downtown and it is too far away from many of their customers.

Where do you believe that the businesses along Richmond will go or are you suggesting that they will remain during light rail construction ? Also, what area do you think the businesses in the Galleria area along Post Oak Blvd. will relocate to,etc. ? What about businesses in other impacted areas ?

thanks

[kylejack]

have any of you ever lived in a city with real rail? rail that is actually used for something other than football games and the rodeo. for that matter, have you ever taken the rail in this city at a time other than that? there so few people on those mini-trains.

You're again proving that you don't know what you're talking about. I commute on the rail every weekday and full trips are common. The train runs every 6 minutes (during weekdays) and is getting plenty of use, especially during commute hours. If you want some hard facts, its the second-highest ridership per track mile in the country.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/METRORail

if you think two rail cars is the equivalent of true rail, then there is no point arguing with you.

You said because of the way the stations were designed that there couldn't be more than 1 car. That wasn't true as doubles are already run (which you would know if you rode it, like me). Now you're shifting the goalposts and saying you were talking about more cars than 2.

that said, with such warped views of the economic implications of the houston rail system, you would be perfect to run metro or this city.

As we hear you accuse us of warped views, let's not forget that your capacity estimate was off by 382%.

[AtticaFlinch]

You're again proving that you don't know what you're talking about. I commute on the rail every weekday and full trips are common. The train runs every 6 minutes and is getting plenty of use, especially during commute hours. If you want some hard facts, its the second-highest ridership per track mile in the country.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/METRORail

You said because of the way the stations were designed that there couldn't be more than 1 car. That wasn't true as doubles are already run (which you would know if you rode it, like me). Now you're shifting the goalposts and saying you were talking about more cars than 2.

As we hear you accuse us of warped views, let's not forget that your capacity estimate was off by 382%.

I'm waiting with bated breath for htownproud to define true rail.

[312]

You said because of the way the stations were designed that there couldn't be more than 1 car. That wasn't true as doubles are already run (which you would know if you rode it, like me). Now you're shifting the goalposts and saying you were talking about more cars than 2.

I am not trying to be funny, but perhaps he means stacking or having a 2 level car or perhaps he feels its not efficient in terms of the weight capacity associated with a traditional train track vs. the type of light rail in place, although it will vary anyway in my opinion. I'm not sure what he means either.

[RedScare]

I am not trying to be funny, but perhaps he means stacking or having a 2 level car or perhaps he feels its not efficient in terms of the weight capacity associated with a traditional train track vs. the type of light rail in place, although it will vary anyway in my opinion. I'm not sure what he means either.

Or perhaps he is simply full of it. He did call it a mini-train, when the tracks are the very same steel and gauge that real trains like BNSF and the New York subway run on. And, let's not forget that the only fact he gave was off by 382%. Sounds like the kinda guy I want schooling me on true rail.

[Jeebus]

It is pretty clear that you are unaware that Downtown Houston has the lowest crime rate in the city.

Which probably has nothing to do with the fact that its a virtual ghost-town come sun-down with no open storefronts and the only residential is all interior access with varying levels of security.

You don't know what you're talking about. Hip-Hop IS a culture in our community. Please speak on what you know. Many of those people that you see lined up to enter clubs are indeed young educated people from various universities throughout the region. People from even as far as Mississippi and Louisiana to party in Houston for a weekend. I wear baggy clothes and big shirts and a fitted hat and I am FAR from a thug. Like it or not, anyone that has seen your posts in this thread will look at that as racial. You know nothing about these people but you judge them. Also,we don't wear our clothes big to conceal a weapon. That's rediculous to even think that and shows again you do not know what you are talking about. Can't speak for the few bad apples. But I know me and the people I know do not own a weapon and ever carried a weapon. We also never think about carrying a weapon. Big clothes, loud music, pop bottles, having a good time, loud djs and more are part of our culture whether you like it or not.

Also, there is NOTHING ghetto about it. I assure you have barely been to a ghetto if you make comments like that. If anyone's comments have been offensive and wrong, it has been your judgement on a community you know nothing about.

But you choose to dress and style yourselves the same as those few bad apples - and then get mad, frustrated, or confused when others who don't understand your culture, but only have been exposed to its negative attributes via the local news media and Hollywood stereotype you the same as the bad apples you dress like? Is this not the same rant as Muslim Americans not understanding why non-Muslim Americans were not okay with them wearing some of their religious based clothing on airplanes or in certain public places post 9-11?

[RedScare]

But you choose to dress and style yourselves the same as those few bad apples - and then get mad, frustrated, or confused when others who don't understand your culture, but only have been exposed to its negative attributes via the local news media and Hollywood stereotype you the same as the bad apples you dress like? Is this not the same rant as Muslim Americans not understanding why non-Muslim Americans were not okay with them wearing some of their religious based clothing on airplanes or in certain public places post 9-11?

Ah, the 'Don't blame me, I'm an ignorant boob' excuse. Classic!

[N Judah]

Maybe this is what he meant:

Sizes under 100 lb/yd (49.6 kg/m) rail are usually for lighter duty freight, low use trackage, or light rail. Track using (100 to 120 lb/yd (49.6 to 59.5 kg/m)) rail is for lower speed freight branch lines or rapid transit (for example, most of the New York City Subway system track is constructed with 100 lb/yd (49.6 kg/m) rail). Main line track is usually built with 130 lb/yd (64.5 kg/m) rail or heavier.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rail_profile

[KinkaidAlum]

BOSTON

I lived in Boston for 12 years and rode the Green Line's B, C, and E lines more than any other lines. I guess Boston isn't a real city either?

[KinkaidAlum]

Here's Portland Oregon's system

Phoneix

[kylejack]

But you choose to dress and style yourselves the same as those few bad apples - and then get mad, frustrated, or confused when others who don't understand your culture, but only have been exposed to its negative attributes via the local news media and Hollywood stereotype you the same as the bad apples you dress like? Is this not the same rant as Muslim Americans not understanding why non-Muslim Americans were not okay with them wearing some of their religious based clothing on airplanes or in certain public places post 9-11?

Criminals dress in all kinds of clothes.

[312]

Here's Portland Oregon's system

Phoneix

Great pictures ! It was interesting to see what light rail looks like in other cities. Houston's looks really sharp.

[samagon]

have any of you ever lived in a city with real rail? rail that is actually used for something other than football games and the rodeo. for that matter, have you ever taken the rail in this city at a time other than that? there so few people on those mini-trains. if you think two rail cars is the equivalent of true rail, then there is no point arguing with you. that said, with such warped views of the economic implications of the houston rail system, you would be perfect to run metro or this city.

Have you ever lived in a city when their so called 'real rail' was in its infancy?

Have you ever used Houston's light rail for something other than going to football games and the rodeo? for that matter, have you ever taken the rail in this city at a time other than that?

I've been on the rail many times, even on Sunday morning, and I have been astonished to find that there is barely seating room even on a Sunday morning. I would expect to be able to stretch out and enjoy my lazy ride. But no, once I finally do get a seat, I end up giving it up to someone who needs it more than me.

My point is, ridership on our rail line is in its infancy, it's easy to forget we've only had an operational light rail for a little over 5 years.

And even without giving it time to properly mature into a viable option for transit in this city, it is still heavily used.

None of that really matters though, I mean take a look at this data:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_States_light_rail_systems_by_ridership

sort by riders per mile of track, that is impressive.

[htownproud]

the difference i was talking about was between heavy gauge rail (e.g., the L, the T, NY, Bay Area, LA, DC, atlanta, phillly, and all the major cities in europe) and light gauge rail, like that in houston.

i would note that while boston does have numerous grade level lines with smaller cars, those generally service the more residential areas, albeit with downtown destitations (as i assume you know since you say you lived there). the T of course is the heavy gauge rail in boston.

red scare, i would appreciate it if you would read my posts before chastising them. i never said the current stations could only hold one car. i said we can't add any more cars--i.e., it can't add more than two. also, i asked "how many people does one of our mini-trains hold," while at the same time speculating it isn't much more than 100 (that's what too far north means). in my experience, there is never that many people on the train outside of sporting events/rodeo peak times. your 382% figure is a red herring, and we heard you say it the first time you posted.

in terms of where the businesses will move, i think they will move to kirby (which will be done with construction), shepperd (which has excess capacity now), washington (still lots of room to build), gray (already tight, but some expansion possibilities), and highland park (allegedly they are building the new two story retail center where tootsie's is).

[kylejack]

241 is pretty far north of 100.

Your experience of the usage does not seem to mesh with the actual figures, which according to the link above is 4,147 boardings per mile per day (as of Q3 09). Come ride the train from the Med Center tonight to downtown at about 5 PM. We'll be packed in together.

[312]

htownproud:

in terms of where the businesses will move, i think they will move to kirby (which will be done with construction), shepperd (which has excess capacity now), washington (still lots of room to build), gray (already tight, but some expansion possibilities), and highland park (allegedly they are building the new two story retail center where tootsie's is).

Kirby: Is under construction. (street widening) Heard business owners on the news are concerned about crime in the area...

S. Shepherd: I'm not sure exactly where you are saying all the excess capacity is that doesn't have inferior exposure?

W. Gray- agree that it's tight and parking issues coupled with limited land area to construct costly garages.

Did you mean Highland Village ?: As I recall, most of what I have seen them construct has been single tenant user buildings. Even so, believe it is still extremely close to construction. Parking issues coupled with limited land area to construct costly garages.

Washington: I am not sure if clothing retailers will have a comfort level rushing in.

I think that in all of your examples you have the businesses all migrating either towards and/or very close to downtown, and would find it hard to believe that it would not get considered at all when it is able to accomodate (including parking) in my opinon almost any requirement that comes along or even a surge of retailers that move all at once.

[RedScare]

the difference i was talking about was between heavy gauge rail (e.g., the L, the T, NY, Bay Area, LA, DC, atlanta, phillly, and all the major cities in europe) and light gauge rail, like that in houston.

i would note that while boston does have numerous grade level lines with smaller cars, those generally service the more residential areas, albeit with downtown destitations (as i assume you know since you say you lived there). the T of course is the heavy gauge rail in boston.

red scare, i would appreciate it if you would read my posts before chastising them. i never said the current stations could only hold one car. i said we can't add any more cars--i.e., it can't add more than two. also, i asked "how many people does one of our mini-trains hold," while at the same time speculating it isn't much more than 100 (that's what too far north means). in my experience, there is never that many people on the train outside of sporting events/rodeo peak times. your 382% figure is a red herring, and we heard you say it the first time you posted.

in terms of where the businesses will move, i think they will move to kirby (which will be done with construction), shepperd (which has excess capacity now), washington (still lots of room to build), gray (already tight, but some expansion possibilities), and highland park (allegedly they are building the new two story retail center where tootsie's is).

I will let everyone else read your posts and decide for themselves what you attempted to say, as well as its accuracy. As for the guage, you appear to be engaging in the citykid lament of heavy rail versus light rail. While I could point out the number of European cities using the German built Siemens S70s currently in use in Houston, or the future CAF USA trainsets, I believe a more useful and eye opening discussion would be to concentrate on US cities, since that is what we know and use.

Let's compare Houston with Atlanta. Comparisons with Dallas, San Diego, Minneapolis, Denver and many other cities is pointless, because they use the exact same light rail class trains that you denigrate as "mini-trains" (even though they weigh in excess of 90,000 pounds). Atlanta uses the traditional heavy rail trains that you suggest are the answer to all of Houston's "problems". Best I can tell, your main gripe is passenger capacity, due to small light rail trains, inadequate stations, inability to link more than 2 cars, and I suppose, that our trains run in the streets. But, the question needs to be asked, do we NEED heavy rail? I assume that your concerns are more realistic than citykid's desires for an "urban" system (whatever that means). Atlanta's system was built nearly 40 years ago, when heavy rail was the only mode used. Light rail was designed for use in areas without crushing densities such as New York and Chicago. Looking at Atlanta's density and its ridership numbers, it would do well with light rail.

MARTA has daily ridership of 260,000 on 47.6 miles of track. This equates to passenger load per track mile of 5,462. Houston has current daily ridership of 40,000 on 7.5 miles of track, for a passenger load per track mile of 5,333. It has been as high as 44,000, or 5,867. Houston's light rail already carries as many people as Atlanta's heavy rail, and sometimes more. What value is achieved by spending much more money just to have a heavier train?

Let's look at capacity. Houston's capacity in its current configuration is 4,820 passengers per hour in each direction, or 9,680 total. This is achieved by using two 241 capacity trains running on 6 minute headways. New trains carrying 282 passengers will bump capacity to 5,640 per hour, or 11,280 total, a 16.5% increase with no other changes. Headways can be increased to every 3 minutes, doubling capacity to 22,560 per hour. Remember, the current ridership is 40,000 per DAY.

Now, let's add the new track. Upon completion, the Houston system will have 38 miles of track, running 282 capacity trains on 5 separate but inteconnected lines. Each line would have a capacity of delivering 5,640 people per hour, or 11,280 in both directions. That equates to 56,400 passengers per hour. On 6 minute headways,and travelling at 18 miles per hour, there could be 42 2-car trains running at once (both directions), or 23,813 passengers simultaneously.

So here's my question to you. Using real figures, as opposed to your extremely low guess, exactly how is Houston's light rail system inadequate for carrying HOUSTONIANS? Because Houston will never look like Paris (which uses the same trains we do), we don't need to build like Paris does. Where do you see inadequate capacity for Houston passenger loads in Houston's future system?

[htownproud]

312, yes i meant highland village. thank you.

i hope businesses consider downtown, but i think it will be difficult to convince folks in Bellaire, West U, Afton Oaks, and River Oaks (areas primarily served by richmond between post oak and the main street line), to go downtown, which should ultimately drive the retailers' decision. Museum Distict and Montrose folks may be easier to convince.

also, i thought they would be done with Kirby by the time Richmond got torn-up, but then again it's been ongoing for what seems like years, so who knows. and here is the space on shepherd i was talking about: http://swamplot.com/all-that-empty-retail-on-south-shepherd-a-drive-by-photo-tour/2009-06-25/ , some of which is certainly not Class A space, as you note.

[kylejack]

Nice post, but keep in mind those are theoretical maximums as they don't have enough cars to run a double every time. (18 vehicles currently, with 3 wrecked by accidents in the past month or two).

[htownproud]

since you asked, my number one concern is the traffic problem that will result from putting lines on richmond and post oak--that's why i suggested elevated trains (and hence the topic on what will happen to displaced businesses). if you can put light rail on elevated tracks, then im all for it (presumably with elevated tracks you can create stations that could hold more than two cars).

the ridership issue is secondary, and takes too much time to refute while at work (but by way of simple example, 9,600 passengers/hour * 16 hours = ~153,000 total capacity day; 40,000 riders per day currently; each train is approximately 25% full or right around 120 people per train . . . ).

gotta run for the day--cheers.

[kylejack]

the ridership issue is secondary, and takes too much time to refute while at work (but by way of simple example, 9,600 passengers/hour * 16 hours = ~153,000 total capacity day; 40,000 riders per day currently; each train is approximately 25% full or right around 120 people per train . . . ).

The simple example is simply wrong for 4 reasons. One, they don't run a double every time, in fact its currently a minority of the runs, and 2, they run every 6 minutes for 15 hours, not 16 (4:30 AM - 7:30 PM), and thirdly because the daily ridership is actually including the night hours as well, and fourthly because your phrasing is wrong: "each train is approximately 25% full or right around 120 people per train" (the phrase you are looking for is "on average". At 10:30 in the morning ridership is much much lighter than at 7:30 in the morning, for example...the system needs to be able to handle the peaks).

[RedScare]

Neither you nor 312 have given any proof whatsoever that businesses will be displaced. While there may be a few who must move because land is needed, there is no concrete evidence whatsoever that businesses must or will move in droves. Businesses have survived much greater disruptions for street reconstruction, such as the Cotswold project, which ripped up and replaced the sidewalks on 90 square blocks of downtown, or the downtown street reconstruction that replaced entire streets and sidewalks of every single downtown and most midtown thoroughfares. Even Uptown has gone through the West Loop, 59 interchange, Katy Freeway and interchange, feeder road and San Felipe reconstructions without losing businesses other than those taken by eminent domain. This 'discussion' of where businesses will move once Post Oak is used to build a rail line is out of all proportion to what has occurred in the past, yet a few posters continue to post as if it is a foregone conclusion. Idle threats by a few unnamed Uptown businesses who never said a word during the public discussions mean nothing. Besides, if they move, they are still in Houston. We lose nothing. Knock yourselves out.

[TheNiche]

I will let everyone else read your posts and decide for themselves what you attempted to say, as well as its accuracy. As for the guage, you appear to be engaging in the citykid lament of heavy rail versus light rail. While I could point out the number of European cities using the German built Siemens S70s currently in use in Houston, or the future CAF USA trainsets, I believe a more useful and eye opening discussion would be to concentrate on US cities, since that is what we know and use.

Let's compare Houston with Atlanta. Comparisons with Dallas, San Diego, Minneapolis, Denver and many other cities is pointless, because they use the exact same light rail class trains that you denigrate as "mini-trains" (even though they weigh in excess of 90,000 pounds). Atlanta uses the traditional heavy rail trains that you suggest are the answer to all of Houston's "problems". Best I can tell, your main gripe is passenger capacity, due to small light rail trains, inadequate stations, inability to link more than 2 cars, and I suppose, that our trains run in the streets. But, the question needs to be asked, do we NEED heavy rail? I assume that your concerns are more realistic than citykid's desires for an "urban" system (whatever that means). Atlanta's system was built nearly 40 years ago, when heavy rail was the only mode used. Light rail was designed for use in areas without crushing densities such as New York and Chicago. Looking at Atlanta's density and its ridership numbers, it would do well with light rail.

MARTA has daily ridership of 260,000 on 47.6 miles of track. This equates to passenger load per track mile of 5,462. Houston has current daily ridership of 40,000 on 7.5 miles of track, for a passenger load per track mile of 5,333. It has been as high as 44,000, or 5,867. Houston's light rail already carries as many people as Atlanta's heavy rail, and sometimes more. What value is achieved by spending much more money just to have a heavier train?

Let's look at capacity. Houston's capacity in its current configuration is 4,820 passengers per hour in each direction, or 9,680 total. This is achieved by using two 241 capacity trains running on 6 minute headways. New trains carrying 282 passengers will bump capacity to 5,640 per hour, or 11,280 total, a 16.5% increase with no other changes. Headways can be increased to every 3 minutes, doubling capacity to 22,560 per hour. Remember, the current ridership is 40,000 per DAY.

Now, let's add the new track. Upon completion, the Houston system will have 38 miles of track, running 282 capacity trains on 5 separate but inteconnected lines. Each line would have a capacity of delivering 5,640 people per hour, or 11,280 in both directions. That equates to 56,400 passengers per hour. On 6 minute headways,and travelling at 18 miles per hour, there could be 42 2-car trains running at once (both directions), or 23,813 passengers simultaneously.

So here's my question to you. Using real figures, as opposed to your extremely low guess, exactly how is Houston's light rail system inadequate for carrying HOUSTONIANS? Because Houston will never look like Paris (which uses the same trains we do), we don't need to build like Paris does. Where do you see inadequate capacity for Houston passenger loads in Houston's future system?

I think you're missing the point. Houston definitely has more potential for fixed-guideway transit than does Atlanta (smaller) or Dallas/FW (more spread out w/smaller CBDs & edge cities). And that is already reflected in our transit use statistics. What is not reflected is the opportunity cost of sticking with our less expensive at-grade system as compared to a more expensive partially or fully grade-separated system where trains can operate at higher speeds and without interference from traffic or faulty signal prioritization. Our Red Line runs at an average of 19mph. But what would the ridership be if the average speed were twice that? Granted, there are significant additional costs, but they are not without benefits.

Furthermore, your ridership-based analysis fails to account for other economic benefits incurred by a more fully grade-separated system, perhaps most notably a reduction in rail-induced traffic congestion at high-volume intersections or as a consequence of disruptions to signal timing. Reducing congestion in the central city saves peoples' time and vehicle operating costs, increases regional mobility, and thereby makes the central city more competitive for office tenants as compared to suburban office submarkets. This becomes an especially important consideration given that such infrastructure will continue to exert adverse impacts decades after it has been built; even if bad planning doesn't result in congestion initially, it may very well after 30 years go by. There are also direct benefits in the form of time savings to transit riders, partly reflected by the marginal increase in ridership, but also indicating an greater amount of consumer surplus.

Of course, we've been over this issue using the same tired talking points probably dozens of times, now. Neither of us has adequate data, I don't think, to come to a conclusion that is definitive, however clearly the issue is more complicated than the number of miles, the number of riders, and capital cost...even if that's all that the FTA really cares about for the sake of allocating federal funds. It takes a holistic approach. And yours is myopic.

[RedScare]

It takes a holistic approach. And yours is myopic.

Speaking of missing the point. You take my response to another poster's unsupported statements and claim that it doesn't cover all of the issues you find important. Well, no sheet! Good job catching that. Do you want a cookie?