Greenway Commons: Retail Center At 3651 Weslayan St.

[Pumapayam]

How "final" is this proposal.

I remember the Pavillions project lost a highrise and then gained it back a few months later.

What are the chances of maybe bringing these buildings at least up to the street side?

[TheNiche]

How "final" is this proposal.

I remember the Pavillions project lost a highrise and then gained it back a few months later.

What are the chances of maybe bringing these buildings at least up to the street side?

Change happens, but not without a catalyst.

This is far from set in stone, but it is going to take some timely effort. Anyone who can marshall civic and political forces to fight the good fight would be well-advised to get their campaign going quickly. Outside of this forum, I'm probably not going to be that person...but you might be.

[jt16]

districtc@cityofhouston.net - Anne Clutterbuck District C

patricia.cotton@cityofhouston.net - Houston Planning Commission

mayor@cityofhouston.net - Mayor White

https://www.costco.com/CustomerService/EmailUs.aspx?secure=1

Obviously I have no idea how to post links. The point is, it does no good to voice your opinion here. Let the decision makers know how you feel. Let Costco know that you've admired them as a good corporate citizen, but that this store in its current design will erode the neighborhood.

Let the city know that the people they represent will not be happy with the design, and that they should use whatever limited power they have to lean on the planners to change the design.

[citykid09]

I think yall should contact the developer of this Costco Site and let them know how you guys fell. Also let the city of Houston know how you feel, and on top of that, I think the city of Houston should know about this site and so should developers so that they can see the people opinion on their projects.

[nate]

The responses in this thread crack me up. I love how so many people think that they know more about shopping center development than Trammell Crow.

To me, this looks like it will be a successful project and will be good for the area.

[TheNiche]

The responses in this thread crack me up. I love how so many people think that they know more about shopping center development than Trammell Crow.

That's precisely what I'm suggesting.

The only reason I don't work for them, by the way, is because I got a better offer elsewhere.

[dbigtex56]

The responses in this thread crack me up. I love how so many people think that they know more about shopping center development than Trammell Crow.

To me, this looks like it will be a successful project and will be good for the area.

Yeah, I love that, too. I love that people in Houston are beginning to realize that they don't have to put up with everything that developers throw their way.

If they're anything like other developers, Trammell Crow has only one goal: to make money. That usually means throwing up whatever is most cost-effective. If the plans posted on this thread are any indication, little or no regard is given to the effects on surrounding neighborhoods or aesthetic concerns. The only incentive they have to put more thought into its design is to gauge the effect on the market - and that's us.

People in other cities have known for a long time that they don't have to take bad architecture lying down. Thankfully, word seems to be spreading to Houston.

[TheNiche]

If they're anything like other developers, Trammell Crow has only one goal: to make money. That usually means throwing up whatever is most cost-effective. If the plans posted on this thread are any indication, little or no regard is given to the effects on surrounding neighborhoods or aesthetic concerns. The only incentive they have to put more thought into its design is to gauge the effect on the market - and that's us.

As I've received more information, I've become more inclined to believe that Costco is the key driver behind this change in plans. After all, Trammell Crow and The Morgan Group, which co-owned the site, had previously spent a fair bit of effort planning for something of a much more aesthetically pleasing nature...doesn't make sense that they'd just throw it all away for no good reason. And then, per my source, Costco spotted it and swooped in with lots and lots of cash, changing the whole dynamic of the project all at once. The Morgan Group must've been particularly well-compensated to willingly get their project stuck in the position that it's in. I simply can't fathom how it would've made sense for them to do something like this unless they 1) didn't know any better or 2) Costco paid them off in unfathomable amounts.

But one thing is definitely true. If enough people let them know how you feel, there's a fair chance that change can happen.

[houston-development]

dont know if i mentioned this earlier but FWIW, no retailers were going to commit to the site without knowing about the rail situation. time was of the essence, since crow and morgan had a sizeable deposit up, and had to make a decision. costco came in at a great number, so they had to take it.

dont blame morgan because their input on the commercial side was minimal. lets just say i seriously doubt they will ever partner up with crow commercial again.

[TheNiche]

dont know if i mentioned this earlier but FWIW, no retailers were going to commit to the site without knowing about the rail situation.

Although I'd rather not get off topic on a long-winded debate over this, do you know whether the tenants were more inclined not to commit because 1) rail might threaten vehicular access or 2) because the lack of rail might threaten transit access? I'm pretty sure that I know the answer, but I'd prefer to verify from someone in the know.

I'll start up another thread on this matter so that the debate doesn't overshadow this very important topic.

Edited January 18, 2007 by TheNiche

[houston-development]

Although I'd rather not get off topic on a long-winded debate over this, do you know whether the tenants were more inclined not to commit because 1) rail might threaten vehicular access or 2) because the lack of rail might threaten transit access? I'm pretty sure that I know the answer, but I'd prefer to verify from someone in the know.

I'll start up another thread on this matter so that the debate doesn't overshadow this very important topic.

i know this will appear to be talking out of both sides of my mouth, but it is what it is.

1) with an unknown timeline and if rail was or was not going down richmond, prospective retailers were hesitant to commit. if the rail line was to stop in front of the site, there was concern of how long construction would take and the damage it hypothetically could create for opening businesses. there are retail guys here that know more than i but from what ive heard in the past, the first year makes or breaks a business. its a rock and a hard place scenario.

2) without rail, the site became less appealing.

with the clock ticking down to zero, crow had to make a decision. from a responsible development perspective, they screwed the pooch in my humble opinion. however, on the other hand, from a business perspective, they did the right thing.

houston... gotta love it

Edited January 19, 2007 by houston-development

[Montrose1100]

Yeah, I love that, too. I love that people in Houston are beginning to realize that they don't have to put up with everything that developers throw their way.

But with so few developements, the people in Houston will take what they get and not jeopardize a project.

[KinkaidAlum]

So few developments?

Are you serious? Developments like this Costco are a dime a dozen in the greater Houston area. Hell, to be honest, I think the reason even most on here are getting so p.o'd by this project is because we've had a pretty good record as of late for some decent proposals (High Street, Blvd Place, the new project in the Rice Village, the Pavilions, the Mosaic, the new apartments/mixed use on Kirby, Waterway Square in the Woodlands, Sugar Land Town Center, and even a new retail place down in Pearland).

The last thing Houston needs is another Big Box store with pod sites, especially on such highly visible land.

[Montrose1100]

So few developments?

Are you serious? Developments like this Costco are a dime a dozen in the greater Houston area. Hell, to be honest, I think the reason even most on here are getting so p.o'd by this project is because we've had a pretty good record as of late for some decent proposals (High Street, Blvd Place, the new project in the Rice Village, the Pavilions, the Mosaic, the new apartments/mixed use on Kirby, Waterway Square in the Woodlands, Sugar Land Town Center, and even a new retail place down in Pearland).

The last thing Houston needs is another Big Box store with pod sites, especially on such highly visible land.

I was just a little emotional, Houston is my child, I only want the best for her. (No wire hangers)

[houston-development]

The last thing Houston needs is another Big Box store with pod sites, especially on such highly visible land.

i agree with you

[talltexan83]

It was very disturbing to stumble upon this today. It sounds like Costco is here to stay, but is there any flexibilty in their design plans. The inner loop has made too many strives in recent years to take a step back on this one.

Given the relative wealth in the area (River Oaks, West U, etc.) and the influx of high end condos, I am positive the most homeowners in the near vicinity would fight for a change in design. Can we forward this link to any relevant neighborhood associations?

[TheNiche]

Can we forward this link to any relevant neighborhood associations?

Of course we can. We just need somebody to put together a roster people involved with HOAs, civic clubs, superneighborhood councils, and management districts that might have a stake in the development of this site.

I don't really have time to tackle that in the near future, but if someone else does, that'd be helpful.

[Pumapayam]

I dunno, other than the urbanist view, what real damage is this going to have. It will just be a Non Value Added development.

Unless we can find some sort of a "walrmart" type connection, which I don't know if Costco has the same issues, we might have nothing.

[TheNiche]

I dunno, other than the urbanist view, what real damage is this going to have. It will just be a Non Value Added development.

Unless we can find some sort of a "walrmart" type connection, which I don't know if Costco has the same issues, we might have nothing.

The standard set of arguments should apply. It looks ugly, discourages pedestrian movement and mass transit use, encourages private automobile use (along with congestion and pollution) places loading docks in a residential area, discourages the creation of small and locally-owned businesses, contributes to light pollution at night, doesn't contribute as greatly to the tax or employment base as it should be, and of course, the good old standby that this isn't what we were promised.

Half of these arguments I am not myself convinced of or could care less about, but I know that there are lots of people out there that will buy into it.

A Wal-Mart connection isn't necessary. One of the competitive advantages that Costco has tried to nurture is the perception among the public that it is socially progressive...it is a mixed truth, but that is irrelevant. If you hit them hard with bad PR and threaten to label them as bad corporate citizens, they might compromise on the issue just to maintain that aspect of the brand within the Houston market.

Edited January 22, 2007 by TheNiche

[Montrose1100]

Niche, you always have the answers.

[TheNiche]

Niche, you always have the answers.

I wish that were true. Unfortunately, no matter what we attempt, the odds are not great that we will be successful. I've attached a file that illustrates Costco's perspective very well, among other interests. Although it applies most accurately to suburban contexts, I think you can see where I'm going with this.

...and the more I learn about the circumstances, the less hope I have that the issue will be resolved.

a_typical_shopping_center.pdf

[Overseas]

A Wal-Mart connection isn't necessary. One of the competitive advantages that Costco has tried to nurture is the perception among the public that it is socially progressive...it is a mixed truth, but that is irrelevant. If you hit them hard with bad PR and threaten to label them as bad corporate citizens, they might compromise on the issue just to maintain that aspect of the brand within the Houston market.

Actually, there is a bit of a Wal-Mart connection here to be played off of. As Niche said, Costco's whole image and marketing strategy is that it is the anti-Wal-Mart (or Sam's Club, to be precise). It is supposed to be progressive, socially aware, pays its employees well and gives them benefits, more upmarket etc. This development is the antithesis of their image, and should be pointed out to them. With Wal-Mart starting to try to embrace "green" and more responsible developments (or at least marketing themselves as such), pointing out to Costco that this sort of development is not in keeping with their image and is actually trailing behind where Wal-Mart is (sort of) going. A whole slew of emails hitting Costco might have some effect. Couldn't hurt.

[feufoma]

I wish that were true. Unfortunately, no matter what we attempt, the odds are not great that we will be successful. I've attached a file that illustrates Costco's perspective very well, among other interests. Although it applies most accurately to suburban contexts, I think you can see where I'm going with this.

...and the more I learn about the circumstances, the less hope I have that the issue will be resolved.

Thanks for the laugh. "As seen by the city" is especially funny since this is the exact opposite of what we find in Houston. In fact, that diagram could be instead labeled, "As seen by any city other than Houston, Texas..."

[TheNiche]

Thanks for the laugh. "As seen by the city" is especially funny since this is the exact opposite of what we find in Houston. In fact, that diagram could be instead labeled, "As seen by any city other than Houston, Texas..."

Well, like I said, the flyer best represents suburban development patterns. All those folks up in the northwestern suburbs that whine about clear cutting are the best example. But the "As seen by the city" panel is supposed to represent what the residents would like to see. And although the panel may show park land in a suburban context, I'm pretty sure that it would show new urbanism in the context of the HISD site. And I do think that that is conceptually accurate, even in Houston.

Edited January 23, 2007 by TheNiche

[Pumapayam]

I wish that were true. Unfortunately, no matter what we attempt, the odds are not great that we will be successful. I've attached a file that illustrates Costco's perspective very well, among other interests. Although it applies most accurately to suburban contexts, I think you can see where I'm going with this.

...and the more I learn about the circumstances, the less hope I have that the issue will be resolved.

Nice find with the diagram btw.

I enjoy the last version with the park, but I think the emphasis on the development is less on shopping on more on recreation and civic buildings.

[houston-development]

Although it applies most accurately to suburban contexts, I think you can see where I'm going with this.

: standing ovation :

[dbigtex56]

Forgive me if this topic is being covered elsewhere - what's going up at the corner of Weslayan and Richmond? Also, on the west side of Weslayan, just north of Hwy59?

[nativehou]

Weslayan and Richmond -- the former site of the HISD Headquarters building. See this thread:

http://www.houstonarchitecture.info/haif/i...c=2169&st=0

[dbigtex56]

Weslayan and Richmond -- the former site of the HISD Headquarters building. See this thread:

http://www.houstonarchitecture.info/haif/i...c=2169&st=0

Thanks, nativehou - I should have known that...

That leaves the other site, south of Richmond and just north of 59 (next to a convenience store/gas station) - anything noteworthy going up there? The land has been freshly cleared.

[nativehou]

It was the site of a hotel -- don't remember which chain -- maybe Motel 6 or similar. Don't know what's going up but I'm anxious to find out. Anybody?