Market Square Park At 301 Milam St.

[citizen4rmptown]

A proper museum would be the proper venue, I believe.

Having such a structure in the future wouldn't be a "Feel good" measure, but a proper way to be in the proper context as to why things happened the way it happened.

The Holocaust didn't just happen, there was quite a few important event that led up to that event, and as such, a museum can be a proper way to put it all together....as long as it's not politicized.

Good example with the Holocaust, but it serves as a counterexample as well to your point.

I think we can agree that the current war didn't JUST HAPPEN,the 9/11 attacks though were the most important in the "leading up" to the war. And since we are all affected more by the war, than by 9/11(for some), a memorial for this attack seems fitting, EVEN if you think this is a "feel good" measure.

If they made a memorial for Kristelnacht (i dont know, but they probably did), it would be an important one either way.

So, if you still doubt that this "feel good" measure is just that, think about what the memorial is about. That event helped lead to the war. And im sure there are more Houston ties to the war, than there is to related 9/11 attacks.

[ricco67]

Good example with the Holocaust, but it serves as a counterexample as well to your point.

I think we can agree that the current war didn't JUST HAPPEN,the 9/11 attacks though were the most important in the "leading up" to the war. And since we are all affected more by the war, than by 9/11(for some), a memorial for this attack seems fitting, EVEN if you think this is a "feel good" measure.

If they made a memorial for Kristelnacht (i dont know, but they probably did), it would be an important one either way.

So, if you still doubt that this "feel good" measure is just that, think about what the memorial is about. That event helped lead to the war. And im sure there are more Houston ties to the war, than there is to related 9/11 attacks.

Kristelnacht is worth noting as the beginning, but not the start of it.

9/11 wasn't the "leading up" to the war, it was a culmination of a series of events that started near the beginning of the first war.

But I don't want to rehash the politics and I don't wanna give the "Truthers" fits.

If a memorial needs to be built, do it in another part of the city or another park that is larger than MSP.

I still think a Museum would be a more appropriate venue and that a memorial to a particularly notable local person should be made instead.

[Subdude]

FWIW - Last week there was some dudes taking measurements in the little lot next to la Carafe.

This is likely related to the proposed garden extension of La Carafe.

[bachanon]

more information and some renderings on/of market square park:

downtown district

culture map

[RustyB]

more information and some renderings on/of market square park:

downtown district

culture map

Aw, man...that's very disappointing. At least the current crappy Market Square is not totally useless, in the fact that you can see clear across it.

But I guess all those dog owners that live around Market Square will like the fact now their dogs have a place to "walk".

This would be really cool...if it were in 1986 San Leon.

[wernicke]

Aw, man...that's very disappointing. At least the current crappy Market Square is not totally useless, in the fact that you can see clear across it.

But I guess all those dog owners that live around Market Square will like the fact now their dogs have a place to "walk".

This would be really cool...if it were in 1986 San Leon.

I disagree... I think it is a definite improvement over what currently exists. And adding the Nikko Nikko's Cafe should bring people to the park. The surrounding businesses will gain customers.

[bachanon]

i too think it's a good thing. it will make the park more user friendly and improve the area.

[citizen4rmptown]

It looks like they're adding a "play area"....Thats nice for the kids.

Overall, it looks like a subtle hybrid of Discovery Green and Tranquility Park. Of course, a lot smaller, but great nevertheless.

[rsb320]

They put up a cyclone fence around the park today.

[rsb320]

They began digging and ripping up the old park this week.

[KinkaidAlum]

A dog run is one of the BEST things they could have added. You'd be surprised how many downtown loft owners who own dogs. This will help build a community.

However, I think the play area is overkill. How many kids live downtown? While I notice residents walking dogs, I don't think I've seen a single stroller in that area.

[Hanuman]

A dog run is one of the BEST things they could have added. You'd be surprised how many downtown loft owners who own dogs. This will help build a community.

However, I think the play area is overkill. How many kids live downtown? While I notice residents walking dogs, I don't think I've seen a single stroller in that area.

I just saw a T.V. special on 13 last night about the square. The plans, and story are on the Channel 13 website. The part I liked is the historical area, and the WiFi area. I love downtown at night, not doing anything really, just hanging out. This would be perfect for that. Hopefully, they'll police it well, as I have had problems with panhandlers, and mental homeless - types. Looks super though!

[barracuda]

However, I think the play area is overkill. How many kids live downtown? While I notice residents walking dogs, I don't think I've seen a single stroller in that area.

There might not be many kids living downtown, but that hasn't hurt business at Discovery Green. Build it and they will come.

[citizen4rmptown]

I'm pretty sure theres not any people that play basketball living DT, but that doesn't stop anybody from playing in Root Memorial Square next to the Toyota Center.

Nice article in the Chron.

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/metropolitan/6841063.html

And this blog was cool to look at

http://blogs.chron.com/bayoucityhistory/2010/01/the_many_sides_of_market_square_1.html?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+houstonchronicle%2Fbayoucityhistory+%28Bayou+City+History%29

Edited January 31, 2010 by citizen4rmptown

[fatesdisastr]

And this blog was cool to look at

http://blogs.chron.c...City+History%29

The pictures in that blog were really awesome. thanks for the share

[KinkaidAlum]

Yeah, but the Discovery Green offers way more than a playscape. There's dancing fountains, entertainment, seasonal ice skating, playgrounds, a pond for remote control boats, etc... that's a destination park.

I like the dog run and love the idea of bringing an "outdoor Niko Nikos" to Market Square, but I'd rather them leave more green/open space then add another feature. I guess you could argue that mom's might take their little tykes there to eat and let them loose on the playscape ala Lupe Tortillas though...

[312]

I hope that once the dust settles that it won't be forgotten and that it gets promoted as much as Discovery Green.

[totheskies]

One thing's for sure... the performing arts crowd will be taking full advantage of the new park for our constant rehearsals and shows. This is going to be very exciting.

[312]

Agree on the memorial bit. Niko Nikos is brilliant. It's about time they expanded. I just hope they can stay in business at that location. It seems a lot of food joints have come and gone on Market Square.

I think that this historic park is very important to the city and I think it deserves to be recognized for it's historical importance as being where the city originally began. The bell tower that is at the corner of Congress/Travis was originally on the courthouse built on this location. I heard that it some how lost and later recovered from a fire dept. that some how ended up having it at their location. I believe that this area should have something that makes it really stand out and distinguished and am not sure what would do this, but felt like something along the lines of some type of tall monument which would remain lit at night that branded the location would be really neat. Maybe this is corny, but perhaps a torch light which stood for the spark that started the city's beginning.

[312]

I think that this historic park is very important to the city and I think it deserves to be recognized for it's historical importance as being where the city originally began. The clock located within the clock tower(correction) 301 Travis (the corner of Congress/Travis) was originally on the courthouse built on this location. I heard that it some how lost and later recovered from a fire dept. that some how ended up having it at their location. I believe that this area should have something that makes it really stand out and distinguished and am not sure what would do this, but felt like something along the lines of some type of tall monument which would remain lit at night that branded the location would be really neat. Maybe this is corny, but perhaps a torch light which stood for the spark that started the city's beginning.

Saw this cool picture of the clock (housed in the and clock tower)on the home page of Houston Architecture today. I heard that the clock was originally located in Market Square Park.

Here is the link: http://www.houstonarchitecture.com/Building/2248/Market_Square_Clock_Tower.php

[312]

Yeah, but the Discovery Green offers way more than a playscape. There's dancing fountains, entertainment, seasonal ice skating, playgrounds, a pond for remote control boats, etc... that's a destination park.

I like the dog run and love the idea of bringing an "outdoor Niko Nikos" to Market Square, but I'd rather them leave more green/open space then add another feature. I guess you could argue that mom's might take their little tykes there to eat and let them loose on the playscape ala Lupe Tortillas though...

I like the idea of having a restaurant, but I was told that it would be 400 sf which sounds more like a deli in a building instead of a restaurant...I guess it's something but it doesn't seem like a real draw when scaled down to that size. It seems like there could be more done to create some excitement, like what was done at Disc. Green which I believe has 2 nice size restaurants built on it.

[RedScare]

I like the idea of having a restaurant, but I was told that it would be 400 sf which sounds more like a deli in a building instead of a restaurant...I guess it's something but it doesn't seem like a real draw when scaled down to that size. It seems like there could be more done to create some excitement, like what was done at Disc. Green which I believe has 2 nice size restaurants built on it.

I'm sure Discovery Green's size of 14 acres (versus about 1.6 acres for Market Square) has very little to do with it.

[312]

I'm sure Discovery Green's size of 14 acres (versus about 1.6 acres for Market Square) has very little to do with it.

Correct, I'm sure that it doesn't...Unless you really believe that getting 400 sf for a deli shack out of an entire city block consisting of 1.6 acres is all that difficult ? Surely, I'm missing your point.

Edited February 22, 2010 by 312

[RedScare]

I'm sorry but really didn't understand your comment...

Well, that makes us even, as I have not understood any of your posts on the subject of the historic district or Market Square. Simply put, Market Square is a park. Taking up too much space to build a full size restaurant defeats the purpose in two ways. One, it leaves less room for the park...its primary intended use...and two, is much more direct competition for the existing restaurants surrounding the park, as opposed to complimentary.

Market Square is 62,500 square feet. Discovery Green is approximately 10 times that size. A full size restaurant and a hamburger stand do not overwhelm the primary nature of the space, namely, a park. A full size building on Market Square would overwhelm the space.

All of your posts appear to begin with a premise that the Historic District is being slighted by the City, METRO, the Downtown associations, and various individuals. This preoccupation with the persecution of the Historic District makes your posts disjointed at best, and flat out wrong at worst. There is no conspiracy against the Historic District or its businesses. And, Downtown is not the gold mine of retail that you claim. Many of the bars, restaurants, clubs and stores that have left have done so precisely because the market is so tough to operate in. Frankly, your posts sound like real estate agent puffery more than an accurate assessment of the Historic District and Downtown business climate. I should know. I operated businesses in Downtown and the Historic District for 10 years, and walked those streets and sidewalks before, during and after construction. I knew many of the proprietors of the businesses in the area personally. I know which ones struggled AND why. Rarely, if ever, was it attributed to rail construction or City or METRO conspiracies.

[312]

Well, that makes us even, as I have not understood any of your posts on the subject of the historic district or Market Square. Simply put, Market Square is a park. Taking up too much space to build a full size restaurant defeats the purpose in two ways. One, it leaves less room for the park...its primary intended use...and two, is much more direct competition for the existing restaurants surrounding the park, as opposed to complimentary.

Market Square is 62,500 square feet. Discovery Green is approximately 10 times that size. A full size restaurant and a hamburger stand do not overwhelm the primary nature of the space, namely, a park. A full size building on Market Square would overwhelm the space.

All of your posts appear to begin with a premise that the Historic District is being slighted by the City, METRO, the Downtown associations, and various individuals. This preoccupation with the persecution of the Historic District makes your posts disjointed at best, and flat out wrong at worst. There is no conspiracy against the Historic District or its businesses. And, Downtown is not the gold mine of retail that you claim. Many of the bars, restaurants, clubs and stores that have left have done so precisely because the market is so tough to operate in. Frankly, your posts sound like real estate agent puffery more than an accurate assessment of the Historic District and Downtown business climate. I should know. I operated businesses in Downtown and the Historic District for 10 years, and walked those streets and sidewalks before, during and after construction. I knew many of the proprietors of the businesses in the area personally. I know which ones struggled AND why. Rarely, if ever, was it attributed to rail construction or City or METRO conspiracies.

Thanks for your interest and also for reading "all of my posts". I thought the primary nature of the park is what was trying to be improved upon at Market Square, and as you know it's already a park and I never disputed that point. I really thought that the park was being discussed and not my posts.If you disagree that downtown has a lot of potential, well I have no problem. Speaking of the business climate you mentioned it is interesting to be in the 4th largest city in the US and perhaps even the 3rd largest city once the new census #'s are released and to have such a sluggish retail base especially with the healthy office market that it has and the 140,000 people that I hear are frequenting the area on a daily basis. A lot of areas have a whole lot less to work with in terms of procuring and developing business. I did however suggest that more could be done to promote the entire area as a whole. If you read all of my posts then you would have realized that I am pro-rail and glad to have it in place. Ask the businesses along Main if rail had an impact on their business or not because the proprietors that I know, and knew back then certainly believed that it did, this in addition to seeing the impact of it first hand as well.I still think that a 1.6 acre park could have a full size restaurant among other things and that 400 sf +/- place seems really,really small. Your post seems really defensive.Maybe I could ask you a question. Who subsidized hpavlions,and/or has an interest in the hlton located next to the convention center ? Couldn't this be a reason that it gets so much attention ?

[RedScare]

Read my post again. It is offensive, in that it attacks the flawed premises of your arguments, and the random recitations of statistics as some sort of proof of downtown's potential, while ignoring the reality of attempting retail in a downtown environment. For instance, virtually all of those 140,000 workers leave at the end of the day, which happens to be the prime revenue producing hours for a restaurant. Most restaurants derive 10% or less of their sales from lunch, due to the fact that lunchtime diners eat smaller, less filling meals and usually do not drink alcohol. Downtown restauranteurs are forced to do the opposite, attempting to produce all of their revenue during this low revenue period.

Your attempts to paint downtown as a wonderful bar market are also filled with random and relatively useless stats. Again, during the prime alcohol selling hours, 140,000 downtown workers are in the bars near their homes enjoying happy hour, while downtown bars are serving the 5,000 or so downtown residents. Sure, some downtown bars attract patrons from outside of downtown, but these patrons must be attracted by intense marketing efforts. People do not simply drop by downtown, as they would the bars in their own neighborhoods.

Far from being a detractor of downtown, or of light rail, I am a big fan of both. I thoroughly enjoyed my years as a downtown businessman, and wish the best for those still there or considering entering the market. My "defensive" posts are merely frustration at your over reliance on irrelevant statistics and urban legend in describing downtown retail. Most retailers that have left did so for the usual reasons, poor business plans, bad management, underfinanced, and changing markets. I have been one of those downtown merchants. I know what the challenges are. This is why I am able to challenge your faulty logic.

Good luck in attracting a tenant to your building. (I mean this in all sincerity.)

[312]

Read my post again. It is offensive, in that it attacks the flawed premises of your arguments, and the random recitations of statistics as some sort of proof of downtown's potential, while ignoring the reality of attempting retail in a downtown environment. For instance, virtually all of those 140,000 workers leave at the end of the day, which happens to be the prime revenue producing hours for a restaurant. Most restaurants derive 10% or less of their sales from lunch, due to the fact that lunchtime diners eat smaller, less filling meals and usually do not drink alcohol. Downtown restauranteurs are forced to do the opposite, attempting to produce all of their revenue during this low revenue period.

Your attempts to paint downtown as a wonderful bar market are also filled with random and relatively useless stats. Again, during the prime alcohol selling hours, 140,000 downtown workers are in the bars near their homes enjoying happy hour, while downtown bars are serving the 5,000 or so downtown residents. Sure, some downtown bars attract patrons from outside of downtown, but these patrons must be attracted by intense marketing efforts. People do not simply drop by downtown, as they would the bars in their own neighborhoods.

Far from being a detractor of downtown, or of light rail, I am a big fan of both. I thoroughly enjoyed my years as a downtown businessman, and wish the best for those still there or considering entering the market. My "defensive" posts are merely frustration at your over reliance on irrelevant statistics and urban legend in describing downtown retail. Most retailers that have left did so for the usual reasons, poor business plans, bad management, underfinanced, and changing markets. I have been one of those downtown merchants. I know what the challenges are. This is why I am able to challenge your faulty logic.

Good luck in attracting a tenant to your building. (I mean this in all sincerity.)

Read my post for once...What I was suggesting is that more could probably be done in my opinon to concentrate on retaining those people in the area that frequent downtown daily an that it could go a long way towards creating more interest in the downtown area. I don't understand what urban legend you are referring to,and don't get how you believe that the statistic about how many people frequent downtown is irrelevant. If in fact those people were to remain in the area that come down here to work, then I think we would have a stronger downtown. I think that the idea is pretty simple to understand, so I don't understand where the problem is here ? There is a lack of things for people to do downtown on a daily basis in my opinion. Having more places and things to do say from 2pm- until the evening like shopping for example could translate into more people remaining later and through happy hour and dinner as you suggested. I respect that perhaps you don't agree with this suggestion as a means to build upon the area, but strongly believe on trying to make the most of positives. I think that having so many people work in the area on a daily basis is a big plus, and I foresee that number increasing which will help. I believe that if people had more options and things to do downtown they might actually hang around a bit instead of head out. I think that the liquor sales of the establishments in the area is interesting. I was not suggesting and in fact agree with you that relying primarily on trying to attract conventions/people outside of the area and making that the main focal point of attracting business doesn't seem like a long term plan which has a lasting benefit for the entire area as a whole or makes the large amount of people that frequent the downtown area want to stay after work or want to live here either. In fact from what I can tell many people would really like and enjoy having more amenities in place downtown, so maybe if more existed already in terms of retailers people are used to having access to then more people might be willing to stay and live downtown, where they work. Also didn't follow your comment about all the retailers and you being a merchant. I don't agree with your assessment that every business that was ever located downtown moved or didn't make it because they were all inferior operators and/or were all undercapitalized, but think it probably doesn't matter anyway. Afterall what exodus of retail-merchants could you possibly be talking about anyway that doesn't have to do with bars and restaurants? I am not discussing retail in the area dating back to the city's beginnings, but am discussing retail in recent years. I think that a majority of the retail downtown consists of bars and restaurants and so that's what I discussed. I believe that they probably represent the majority of first tier/original retailers (starting from recent years) entering this area just as they were prior to light rail. What kind of intense marketing efforts would you recommend ? I also asked you a question and didn't receive a response to it in the previous post.

Edited February 23, 2010 by 312

[rsb320]

It's official. Niko Niko's has announced that they are opening a sidewalk kiosk restaurant in Market Square. See chron.com. They should be open in late summer.

[lockmat]

It's official. Niko Niko's has announced that they are opening a sidewalk kiosk restaurant in Market Square. See chron.com. They should be open in late summer.

http://blogs.chron.com/forkandcork/2010/04/montrose_icon_niko_nikos_to_ex_1.html

Look for foods perfect for on-the-go downtown workers, including European-style coffee and breakfast selections.

there also will be Greek-themed breakfasts (another first for Niko Niko's), including fresh Greek yogurt with honey, cheese pies, egg pitas and bougatsa, a custard-filled pastry with powdered sugar. The new site also will serve beer and wine.

[kylejack]

I hit Niko Niko's up on Twitter to ask about hours, and they'll be open 7A-7P. Not sure about the weekend hours, if any.

[GovernorAggie]

One of the structures is going up now.

[citizen4rmptown]

Flickr mappa1001

[kdog08]

Looking good, thanks for the updates.

[rsb320]

They poured the brown concrete for the art walk recently and they're already tearing it up. This is a curved walk to the east of the doggie run. Apparently, some of the poured sections did not match up in color.

[ricco67]

They poured the brown concrete for the art walk recently and they're already tearing it up. This is a curved walk to the east of the doggie run. Apparently, some of the poured sections did not match up in color.

That sucks. I hate it when that happens!

[20thStDad]

They poured the brown concrete for the art walk recently and they're already tearing it up. This is a curved walk to the east of the doggie run. Apparently, some of the poured sections did not match up in color.

Brown concrete, is that to camouflage the dog poop so more people step in it?

[rsb320]

Brown concrete, is that to camouflage the dog poop so more people step in it?

The art walk is at a higher level than the dog park, so no dookie will be involved. Friday, they removed the walk-on portion. Over the weekend, they removed the rest of the concrete, which had formed, inset 'art boxes' in the walk. Today, they're installing plexi-glass (I guess) between the crescent-shaped art walk and the dog area. It looks like you'll be able to stand above on the walk and look through to see the doggies play.

[rsb320]

Okay, the fencing separating certain areas is a metal type of lattice, not plexi-glass.

The inset boxes on the art walk have now been filled. It looks like they kept some of the old remnants and cast them in concrete (like stepping stones) and placed them in the square holes.

Get this! They laid the sod for the lawn earlier in the week. Um, they took it out today. WTF!?

[rsb320]

They are re-laying the sod today. My best guess is that the blade size was wrong or that the shade of green was a bit off.

[UrbaNerd]

Hmm, maybe they decided to lay Bermuda sod instead of St Augustine? Ya know, since Bermuda requires less watering and the like...

[missmsry]

What did they do with the beautiful tiles and cool fountains? All the mounted patrols watered their horses there.

[rsb320]

What did they do with the beautiful tiles and cool fountains? All the mounted patrols watered their horses there.

Those (4) "Flatos" never moved. The water features have been turned off during construction, though. The "Surls" was removed and rehabbed. It's the thing that looks like boat oars and barbed wire. It's back now and is placed in a square pond or fountain.

Posters started appearing yesterday regarding the Market Square Park Neighborhood Shindig! There is a facebook site by that name. It will take place on Sat. Aug. 28th.

Celebrate the park's grand re-opening!

2-6 pm

*Dog Activities sponsored by the Houston Dog Park Assn.

*Historic District Tours sponsored by Greater Houston Preservation Alliance

*Meet & Greet w/Dimitri Fetokakis of Niko Niko's-- free coffee samples!

...6 pm Ribbon Cutting & Fanfare w/Mayor Annise Parker

7 pm Singer/Songwriter Andrew Karnavas

8 pm The John Evans Band

[KinkaidAlum]

Ate at Market Square Bar and Grill for lunch. Forgot how much I like that place... Anyway, the renovations to the actual square look pretty sweet. Now, if only the city would give LaCaraffe the permit for outdoor seating...

[rsb320]

Ate at Market Square Bar and Grill for lunch. Forgot how much I like that place... Anyway, the renovations to the actual square look pretty sweet. Now, if only the city would give LaCaraffe the permit for outdoor seating...

An application for liquor license sign is posted for Niko Niko's, so maybe we can get our outdoor drank-on there.

[DrLan34]

haha good deal

An application for liquor license sign is posted for Niko Niko's, so maybe we can get our outdoor drank-on there.

[ricco67]

I've only seen it a few months ago, but it does seem like it's looking like the PDF posted.

Call me heartless, but that "Lauren's Garden" just doesn't sit well with me.

One other thing they could have added is a small Kiosk for HPD for the public to walk up, get forms, ask questions, and be able to offer some help to the roving police officers in the area. It could have been a nice way for a little HPD PR.

[RedScare]

Call me heartless, but that "Lauren's Garden" just doesn't sit well with me.

It is rather insensitive to put a 9/11 memorial right around the corner from a mosque, isn't it?

[ricco67]

It is rather insensitive to put a 9/11 memorial right around the corner from a mosque, isn't it?

LOL.

I forgot about the mosque.

But still, it does irritate me a bit, though.

[RedScare]

But still, it does irritate me a bit, though.

It does me, too, but this is the world we live in. Everyone must be publicized, memorialized and remembered. Just as people on Facebook clamber for friends, and Twitter users beg for followers, every 6 year old who calls 911 is hailed as a hero, and every person who dies must have a charity or event named after them, or a memorial built in their honor, even if it is simply a cross on the street where they died. Our parents used to visit the gravesite of lost loved ones, but these days we must let the entire world know that our sister or brother died.

Just as I have experienced 'charity fatigue', I also have 'memorial fatigue', and 'hero fatigue'. But, it is only a small part of the park. You are not required to observe a moment of silence in the garden. There are bigger battles to be fought, such as protecting Angry White People from the indignity of a Walmart near the Heights.

Edited August 20, 2010 by RedScare

[ricco67]

As usual, we are in agreement for the most part, but your last sentence got on my nerves: some of us brown people are angry about walmart as well!