Citizens National Bank At 402 Main St.

[musicman]

The latin place I was talking about (used to be called Bossa I think, and I'm not so sure it was Cuban) has re-opened as a martini bar / steak house. That was a pretty quick turnaround.

I walked around downtown tonight, not ghetto at all, very active and lots of people around. Most places around main and market square seemed pretty packed.

i went downtown last night. the HPD presence was obvious and resulted in way less homeless.

[barracuda]

The latin place I was talking about (used to be called Bossa I think, and I'm not so sure it was Cuban) has re-opened as a martini bar / steak house. That was a pretty quick turnaround.

I walked around downtown tonight, not ghetto at all, very active and lots of people around. Most places around main and market square seemed pretty packed.

Yeah, it's not surprising that Bossa closed. It was horrible! It was by far the worst restaurant in Houston, and expensive at that. Glad to see a different restaurant has taken it's place, but hopefully it's not the same owners/chef.

[Jax]

Before I became a student at Rice, my supervisor took me out to that place and a show at the Alley Theater as part of a university tour. I agree, it wasn't what that great. I ordered a ceviche hoping for something like the Peruvian stuff I'm used to, and I basically got a bowl of salsa with a few shrimp on top!

I hope the new place makes it. It's a great location - as long as the food is good I'm sure it will do fine.

Edited September 23, 2007 by Jax

[ricco67]

With the plethora of restaurants around the city, it makes me wonder how BAD it had to be for it to be closed? I see even your small mom and pop places packed during the day all around town.

[musicman]

Houston is a hard restaurant town. We have lots of good reasonably priced places. in order to survive you have to be decent. This is why many of the mediocre chains close here.

[mkultra25]

Houston is a hard restaurant town. We have lots of good reasonably priced places. in order to survive you have to be decent. This is why many of the mediocre chains close here.

I agree, and I believe a key reason is that tourism is essentially nonexistent in Houston, so restaurants that hope to make it here have to be at least halfway decent in order to cultivate repeat business from locals. They can't get away with charging inflated prices and serving subpar food for very long, unlike in locales where a significant chunk of the business comes from tourists.

[jim1960]

I live, work and own property downtown... for 12 years now. I have watched the entire story of downtown redevelopment first hand. I don't wish to write a book here but i have a lot of opinions on downtown nightlife.

A business at night cannot depend on the random patrons walking the streets to wander in and sustain the place...Sunday through Wednesday is extremely sparce of anyone excepting the homeless which duh don't sustain a business. But i view this lack of activity as an opening for creative ideas to make a place a destination point without all the hassels of finding a parking place on the street. There also becomes a greater sense of ownership and oppurtunity to define niche ideas that might inspire other entrepreneurs to follow suit and give the nightlife a distinctive personality. For one thing the city needs to give Caroline a break over at Warren's and approve her patio permit ( the smoking ban has been a disaster for Warren's and Charbar) Possibly remove the parking inset to become sidewalk giving the necessary access and allowing smoking outside at those two establishments that so much represent the good and unique in downtown nightlife. Grumpy old men got to drink and apparently smoke. One thimg i have noticed about the smoking ban is relatively empty bars with patios make the street seem more alive and the bar more busy( everybody is outside... smoking) The major thing that must happen is with property owners letting go of an outdated rent structure based on the good ol days before the superbowl. And with a lower rent structure some of these creative ideas might have a chance to originate and survive. And downtown will again be an interesting and unique destination point at night

[moni]

Wow, great photos. Those streets are sure crowded compared to downtown Houston!

This is a neighborhood picture. The Mexican part of town has a lot of activity most of the time, especially on Saturdays. Tourists also come here because they are a lot of things to see and do. There is a downtown market right near the financial district, that is wonderful, and it is not just for Mexicans, but Asians and U.S. Anglos too. They sell produce, lots of great fish and poultry with specialty cuts of steaks, good stuff, and it is right in the middle of downtown. They also have several restaurants inside, very cheap but tasty food. Open air bars are normal and you can sit right next to the sidewalks and have a beer, when I first moved to LA, I loved that open feeling. No fancy patios, just a bar with stools. You can get tons of fresh produce at very low prices and many people visit via the bus, you can see families carrying big bags of food on to buses. Obviously, if you want people to come downtown, you have to provide something they want. I really believe that if the Grand Central Market was transported to downtown Houston, you would see the people come in droves. LA's Grand Central Market is a gem.

Edited September 26, 2007 by moni

[Jax]

Unless I am mistaken, somebody said earlier in this discussion that LA's Downtown was even more empty after business hours than downtown Houston. I can see that this is not the case.

[tigereye]

The latin place I was talking about (used to be called Bossa I think, and I'm not so sure it was Cuban) has re-opened as a martini bar / steak house. That was a pretty quick turnaround.

I walked around downtown tonight, not ghetto at all, very active and lots of people around. Most places around main and market square seemed pretty packed.

Tunraround on the horizon? Me thinks so.

For one, of late most clubs downtown are pulling in packed crowds. However, it looks nothing compared to downtown 2004 due to the fact that in 2004, there were more clubs open downtown at that time, that were all packed. The survivors are still clearly pulling in business however.

And now, spots that were once vacant are now bieng occupied again

308 Main, the spot that was once home to Opus on Main St. next to the former MBar is now occupied again. LeveL Lounge will open soon there.

With these clubs surviving coupled with newcomers to the scene and all of the new construction going on (Houston Pavillions, Discovery Park and surronding Lots) Downtown could be primed for good times once more when the construction dust settles in 2009.

[mikelee33]

Unless I am mistaken, somebody said earlier in this discussion that LA's Downtown was even more empty after business hours than downtown Houston. I can see that this is not the case.

I currently live in LA and found this topic since I was thinking about purchasing a condo in downtown houston. Let me tell you right off the bat that downtown LA had some buzz going on few years ago but it is all but dead now. As for the the crowded streets, it is crowded during the day since people have to actually work in downtown but once it hits past 5 pm, the streets are desolate. I mean you can't find a soul with the exception of the homeless walking around. I been living in LA all my life and never have I ever said, "Damn let's hit downtown for some fun" There are few clubs with in the beginning phase of downtown that people frequent but that's pretty much it. Once night time hits, and the further you get into downtown and away from Koreatown, it gets downright scary. People talk about thugs or whatnot but in downtown LA, it will look like a "Thriller" video with druggies and god knows what walking around. When the staple center was built the downtown had a lot of buzz and the small lofts were being sold somewhere between 700k - 900k, those same lofts can now be purchased for low as 400k. To give you an idea of what 400k gets you in decent area of socal, think of a closet with a bathroom attached. Whoever posted those pictures did so because downtown has real deals in shopping that people can't really get anywhere else in LA. However, those shops tend to close early too. I should do you guys a favor and drive around downtown at night and take some pictures but I will probably get shot at or attacked, and that's no joke.

[Vertigo58]

I currently live in LA and found this topic since I was thinking about purchasing a condo in downtown houston. Let me tell you right off the bat that downtown LA had some buzz going on few years ago but it is all but dead now. As for the the crowded streets, it is crowded during the day since people have to actually work in downtown but once it hits past 5 pm, the streets are desolate. I mean you can't find a soul with the exception of the homeless walking around. I been living in LA all my life and never have I ever said, "Damn let's hit downtown for some fun" There are few clubs with in the beginning phase of downtown that people frequent but that's pretty much it. Once night time hits, and the further you get into downtown and away from Koreatown, it gets downright scary. People talk about thugs or whatnot but in downtown LA, it will look like a "Thriller" video with druggies and god knows what walking around. When the staple center was built the downtown had a lot of buzz and the small lofts were being sold somewhere between 700k - 900k, those same lofts can now be purchased for low as 400k. To give you an idea of what 400k gets you in decent area of socal, think of a closet with a bathroom attached. Whoever posted those pictures did so because downtown has real deals in shopping that people can't really get anywhere else in LA. However, those shops tend to close early too. I should do you guys a favor and drive around downtown at night and take some pictures but I will probably get shot at or attacked, and that's no joke.

Now the real truth! Mickylee33 got it exactly right!

When I 1st visited LA in 1976 and went DT it was jammed packed but with what seemed like mostly below poverty level citizens/homeless. Streets like Temple, Flower, Broadway, Grand, Pico, Olympic, etc. While living in Santa Monica we seldom ever wanted to go DT as it has such a lousy reputation and still does to this day. Having lived on the west side hardly anyone I knew cared to visit DT unless it was crucial!

I was just speaking with an old coworker yesterday, said his firm had just moved from Century city to DT and hates it, ready to move. Local magazines and newspapers are always ragging on DT as a joke, and everyone is perfectly aware and open about the areas problems. No need to sugarcoat the real truth. Although I was born and raised here in Houston, I have no problem with being honest about our DT. It has had its high and its lows. Take Westwood Village/UCLA for example, the place is alive with theaters, upscale bars, record stores restaurants. That is why people prefer staying in a safe environment. It all depends on the persons/posters opinion. If you had your wife or kids with you, would you prefer DT Houston as a weekend excursion? A single man seems safe as they only have themselves to look out for. It all depends.

Even our Rice University Village area is twice as safe as DT and attracts an approachable crowd.

There is a saying, You dont wake a sleep walker he may trip and break his neck.

Thanks for your total honesty. As Randy Newman sang "I love LA" and Houston sort of (no comparing).

[Jax]

I just thought I'd repost these photos since we're talking about downtown LA again. I guess it's not this crowded at night. Except maybe with zombies!

Edited October 31, 2007 by Jax

[The Great Hizzy!]

I don't know about crowds but those signs on all the buildings are more overbearing than the billboards along the North Freeway.

[Vertigo58]

I don't know about crowds but those signs on all the buildings are more overbearing than the billboards along the North Freeway.

Precisely, when in the DT area of LA, you get the feeling of major crowded, claustrophobic, stifling, push/shove, madness/smog. Signs/businesses are crammed into tight spots and add street vendors, sheer insanity. Just like out of a sci-fi, Soylent Green kind of overcrowded world. Really. Those pics (thank you proof) tell it all. Try going at night. LAPD would even say "Well he had it coming to him, who is crazy enough to be around here at night? Where do you think Ridley Scott got the inspiration for Bladerunner? I love LA, but only the beaches. Now back to Houston's DT problem...

[moni]

Exactly! Those haifers who want downtown Houston to be a hot club/restaurant scene just don't get it. No place in the United States has that scene unless you believe that Houston can compete with Time's Square NYC or Las Vegas, NV.

[Jax]

Nobody wants downtown to be only a hot club/restaurant scene, we want it to be a good all around place to be. It would be nice if downtown was a place that would impress visitors because it's often one of the first places people who visit Houston see. I think the key is to have a good mix of things downtown so something is always happening, rather than busy 9-5 and otherwise dead. Downtown LA looks like it's too developed/crowded to ever really make a major change, but I think Downtown Houston has still got a chance to do things right.

Edited October 31, 2007 by Jax

[musicman]

Downtown LA looks like it's too developed/crowded to ever really make a major change,

In many posts you mention you want more high density development. But now LA is too developed? You can't have it both ways.

[Jax]

I didn't say LA is too developed, I said LA is too developed to change. Downtown LA seems to be a certain way and its doesn't look like it's going to be easy to change that. Downtown Houston on the other hand has lots of empty space, therefore change is possible. I don't have a problem with density, or downtown LA for that mater, I just don't see a lot of empty space in those photos of LA.

My thought was that it's so developed, dense, and busy, that it won't be likely to change.

Downtown Houston on the other hand is not busy at all, there are lots of empty lots, abandoned buildings, and therefore more opportunity to grow in a way that it won't end up like LA (major crowded, claustrophobic, stifling, push/shove, madness/smog).

You tend to look at things as black and white, Musicman. There is clearly a happy medium between being too dense and being too sparse. Does every city with density automatically resemble downtown LA? Obviously not.

There are different types of density and different amounts of density. I'm sure downtown San Francisco and downtown LA both have population density but in different ways.

Yes, you can have it both ways. Yes you can have density but not too much of it. Yes you can have density but not the wrong type of density (ugly crowded, claustrophobic madness etc.). Downtown Montreal has density but I don't consider it ugly, too crowded, or claustrophobic.

Edited October 31, 2007 by Jax

[musicman]

Yes, you can have it both ways. Yes you can have density but not too much of it. Yes you can have density but not the wrong type of density (ugly crowded, claustrophobic madness etc.). Downtown Montreal has density but I don't consider it ugly, too crowded, or claustrophobic.

So are you for limiting growth?

[Jax]

What do you mean am I for limiting growth? What sort of growth do you mean? In what situation? You act like it's a simple yes or no question. In certain cases, I think anybody would be for limiting growth. In other cases, definitely not. I would not be for limiting growth in Houston at this point in time, if that is what you mean. I think the city needs better planning though.

Once a certain level of density is reached, I guess I could say I would be for "limiting growth". I don't think that infinite density is desirable. I'm just saying that a certain level of density is desirable.

I don't want to live in a city where there is one person per square foot, but I also don't want to live in a city where I see empty lots and abandoned buildings on every other block, and I have to drive everywhere I go. There is definitely a happy medium.

[musicman]

What do you mean am I for limiting growth? What sort of growth do you mean? In what situation? You act like it's a simple yes or no question. In certain cases, I think anybody would be for limiting growth. In other cases, definitely not. I would not be for limiting growth in Houston at this point in time, if that is what you mean. I think the city needs better planning though.

Once a certain level of density is reached, I guess I could say I would be for "limiting growth". I don't think that infinite density is desirable. I'm just saying that a certain level of density is desirable.

I don't want to live in a city where there is one person per square foot, but I also don't want to live in a city where I see empty lots and abandoned buildings on every other block, and I have to drive everywhere I go. There is definitely a happy medium.

when one makes a statement like "Yes you can have density but not too much of it," it reminds me of what the southhampton people are saying about the 1717 Bissonnet project. So once a certain level of density is reached you would be for limiting growth. Who is to determine that density? The area residents? The city?

I also don't want to live in a city where I see empty lots and abandoned buildings on every other block, and I have to drive everywhere I go. Density makes public transportation more feasible otherwise it isn't as cost effective.

[jgriff]

My thoughts on the reasons behind Downtown and Midtowns problems.

1. Houston has plenty of room to grow so there is no need for high-density living. High density living is not usually by choice but neccesity.

2. People in Houston do not have the same attitude as people from other large cities like NYC, etc... Living in an apartment in Houston has a stigma attached to it. Parents and friends keep asking "When are you going to buy a house?" People of all social classes live in apartments in NYC.

3. Most people when given the choice of having a large 4 bedroom house with a big yard and an hour long commute vs. a townhouse with a short commute will choose the first. That's not my personal preference but I find that I am in the minority on that one.

4. You can live and work in Houston for years and never even go downtown and a lot of people like it that way. For many people the only time they go downtown is to pay a ticket or get a friend out of jail. It can be a very confusing place to someone who only goes there once a year, with one way streets and trains crossing all over the place.

5. Homeless. Who wants to buy a house where your wife has to pass by a vagrant on the street when she walks the dog? You have to get rid of them to get the average family with small children to feel comfortable.

In another thread about a new office building in the Energy Corridor someone commented about how much nicer it would be if this building was put downtown. It just struck me as kind of naive. Why would they want to build downtown? There's just no good reason I can think of for an engineering related business to build there. Most people in the energy business live in Sugarland, Katy and The Woodlands. For many of them the energy corridor is a shorter commute and most of the people who work in the business really don't want anything to do with downtown anyway.

[moni]

My thoughts on the reasons behind Downtown and Midtowns problems.

1. Houston has plenty of room to grow so there is no need for high-density living. High density living is not usually by choice but neccesity.

2. People in Houston do not have the same attitude as people from other large cities like NYC, etc... Living in an apartment in Houston has a stigma attached to it. Parents and friends keep asking "When are you going to buy a house?" People of all social classes live in apartments in NYC.

3. Most people when given the choice of having a large 4 bedroom house with a big yard and an hour long commute vs. a townhouse with a short commute will choose the first. That's not my personal preference but I find that I am in the minority on that one.

4. You can live and work in Houston for years and never even go downtown and a lot of people like it that way. For many people the only time they go downtown is to pay a ticket or get a friend out of jail. It can be a very confusing place to someone who only goes there once a year, with one way streets and trains crossing all over the place.

5. Homeless. Who wants to buy a house where your wife has to pass by a vagrant on the street when she walks the dog? You have to get rid of them to get the average family with small children to feel comfortable.

In another thread about a new office building in the Energy Corridor someone commented about how much nicer it would be if this building was put downtown. It just struck me as kind of naive. Why would they want to build downtown? There's just no good reason I can think of for an engineering related business to build there. Most people in the energy business live in Sugarland, Katy and The Woodlands. For many of them the energy corridor is a shorter commute and most of the people who work in the business really don't want anything to do with downtown anyway.

You have absolutely nailed it! I think it is a good thing that Houston has the land and space for people to live their lives the way they choose. Choice is one thing missing from NYC, try finding a single-family residence with a big yard in a decent area there. Houston has a pretty DT and high rise living is available to those who want it, but really families want more than just a place to live, they want a child-friendly, pet-friendly community. DT living is basically for singles and childless couples.

[Jax]

when one makes a statement like "Yes you can have density but not too much of it," it reminds me of what the southhampton people are saying about the 1717 Bissonnet project. So once a certain level of density is reached you would be for limiting growth. Who is to determine that density? The area residents? The city?

You're totally not getting my point. You're picking at the details and not seeing the big picture of what I am trying to say.

I'm not saying I'm against density unless it's in my back yard (that's the message I'm getting from Southampton). I don't think what I am trying to say is hypocritical.

And I'm not saying anybody should or will make these decisions. I'm only saying that there's a certain level of density that is desirable. It's not all or nothing. I'm saying that there's a desirable middle ground somewhere above what Houston has now and below places like Hong Kong.

That's why I was saying that asking me where I am "for limiting growth" is a stupid question. It's not really something I can be fore or against because nobody makes those choices (or maybe they will some day?). But if you mean, would limiting growth be desirable, I would say yes if growth/density get out of hand. I don't want to live in a city where my entire family will live in a 500 square foot room. But I also think that having a few vibrant urban pedestrian oriented neighborhoods is a good thing for a city (in additional to suburbs with nice big houses and big yards). Increasing the density of a city like Houston's inner core is a positive thing, until it turns into Hong Kong. But I don't see that happening in Houston. Not in this century anyways.

Edited November 1, 2007 by Jax

[musicman]

But I also think that having a few vibrant urban pedestrian oriented neighborhoods is a good thing for a city

must be semantics...but the LA pics look vibrant to me, not ugly crowded claustrophobic madness. That is typical big city life to me.

[pwright1]

My thoughts on the reasons behind Downtown and Midtowns problems.

1. Houston has plenty of room to grow so there is no need for high-density living. High density living is not usually by choice but neccesity.

2. People in Houston do not have the same attitude as people from other large cities like NYC, etc... Living in an apartment in Houston has a stigma attached to it. Parents and friends keep asking "When are you going to buy a house?" People of all social classes live in apartments in NYC.

3. Most people when given the choice of having a large 4 bedroom house with a big yard and an hour long commute vs. a townhouse with a short commute will choose the first. That's not my personal preference but I find that I am in the minority on that one.

4. You can live and work in Houston for years and never even go downtown and a lot of people like it that way. For many people the only time they go downtown is to pay a ticket or get a friend out of jail. It can be a very confusing place to someone who only goes there once a year, with one way streets and trains crossing all over the place.

5. Homeless. Who wants to buy a house where your wife has to pass by a vagrant on the street when she walks the dog? You have to get rid of them to get the average family with small children to feel comfortable.

In another thread about a new office building in the Energy Corridor someone commented about how much nicer it would be if this building was put downtown. It just struck me as kind of naive. Why would they want to build downtown? There's just no good reason I can think of for an engineering related business to build there. Most people in the energy business live in Sugarland, Katy and The Woodlands. For many of them the energy corridor is a shorter commute and most of the people who work in the business really don't want anything to do with downtown anyway.

I guess I'm in the minority too. Give me a nice townhome inside the loop over anything in the Woodlands, Katy or Sugarland. I just don't see any reason to live way out there. So bland, uninteresting and chain infested. Sugarland seems ok but I still couldn't live there either. Inner city living imo has the best stores, restaurants, culture, museums, nightlife, mature trees and everything else.

[C2H]

Exactly! Those haifers who want downtown Houston to be a hot club/restaurant scene just don't get it. No place in the United States has that scene unless you believe that Houston can compete with Time's Square NYC or Las Vegas, NV.

Wrong. Try Denver, Seatlle, and Chicago to name a few.

[The Great Hizzy!]

In all fairness, DT Denver really isn't that much busier than DT Houston. We're not talking about a complete ghost town of a CBD on weekends or nights but it certainly isn't where it was or where most of us hopes it will be.

[Vertigo58]

You have absolutely nailed it!

DT living is basically for singles and childless couples.

Exactamente! Correct on that one too.

Funny how this same subject comes back again and again on this forum. Our city is really a very young one. Maybe comparing to 200 yr old cities like LA is unfair, but remember the whole DT LA area is very old/historic and thats why it seems ugly to many people. Other areas like Century City, Santa Monica, Wilshire District are very busy/modern but not as hideous as DT.

Just like here if one has no real business to do in DT why bother going? Unless of course headed for The Symphony/opera/ballgame. Houston is still a young city.