Houston Freight Rail Plan web site

[VelvetJ]

^

What part of Kirby?

[west20th]

^

What part of Kirby?

Must be N of 59. S of 59 is a mess.

[nmainguy]

^

What part of Kirby?

Shepherd to San Felipe for sure.

[uncertaintraveler]

Studewood, between White Oak and 20th.

Milam, downtown through midtown

Smith, same

Travis, same

Louisiana, sam

Fannin, same

San Jacinto, same

Main Street, same

Kirby (previously mentioned)

Bomar (south of Gray)

Greenbriar, Rice U to US 59

...among others.

Okay...I had forgotten about Louisiana and Smith...and your reference to Bomar made me remember that Waugh between Westheimer and Gray is pretty nice too. However, out of the downtown roads you listed, how many of them were just resurfaced? I know for a fact that not too long ago, most of those roads were absolutely horrible.

^

What part of Kirby?

I was thinking of the curvy part from San Felipe to Allen Parkway/Shepherd.

[MiDTOWNeR]

i will repeat too. The houston infrastructure is not like a 3rd world country.

Sure it is!

We'll sure miss you.

No you won't

they keep coming up cause you keep repeating them.

Don't shoot the messenger. Not my fault Houston has it's issues. And that it is pratically criminal to discuss them.

[Montrose1100]

Not my fault Houston has it's issues. And that it is pratically criminal to discuss them.

No one is denying issues, however some are denying your ignorant & melodramatic comparisons.

[MiDTOWNeR]

No one is denying issues, however some are denying your ignorant & melodramatic comparisons.

melodramatic? puhleeze girl.

[RedScare]

Okay...I had forgotten about Louisiana and Smith...and your reference to Bomar made me remember that Waugh between Westheimer and Gray is pretty nice too. However, out of the downtown roads you listed, how many of them were just resurfaced? I know for a fact that not too long ago, most of those roads were absolutely horrible.

Funny thing about road resurfacing. Just prior to the resurfacing, they are almost ALWAYS horrible. I wonder why that is?

[uncertaintraveler]

Funny thing about road resurfacing. Just prior to the resurfacing, they are almost ALWAYS horrible. I wonder why that is?

Well my point was, however inartfully stated, that very few roads are smooth and nice to drive on and that the majority of roads in Houston could use a good resurfacing job--yet so few of them ever seem to get one. For whatever reason, roads don't seem to remain in a decent condition for very long in this town.

[Houston19514]

Well my point was, however inartfully stated, that very few roads are smooth and nice to drive on and that the majority of roads in Houston could use a good resurfacing job--yet so few of them ever seem to get one. For whatever reason, roads don't seem to remain in a decent condition for very long in this town.

I'm guessing you don't get out to other cities very often. As I posted earlier, my impression when I visit Houston is that the roads overall are in quite good shape. Hence, the bad ones are especially noticeable (e.g. Kirby south of 59, which is scheduled for a complete re-do soon I believe).

[MiDTOWNeR]

I'm guessing you don't get out to other cities very often. As I posted earlier, my impression when I visit Houston is that the roads overall are in quite good shape. Hence, the bad ones are especially noticeable (e.g. Kirby south of 59, which is scheduled for a complete re-do soon I believe).

I happen to get out to cities across this country and beyond and the Roads in Houston IN MY OPINION of course, are on a whole in much worse condition. if I did not have experiences in mnay other cities, I would not make statements like...the roads in Houston are on par with the third world. Just my two cents. I can name several other cities with pretty bad roads...probably just as third world as Houston. Certainly there are some wonderful roads in Houston as well. The Redneck freeway a.K.a The 59N is purty nice in parts.

[uncertaintraveler]

Although I agree with MiDTOWNeR's statements, just so it is clear to everyone here, I would like to go on record as saying that I do not have duplicate handles.

[TheNiche]

I happen to get out to cities across this country and beyond and the Roads in Houston IN MY OPINION of course, are on a whole in much worse condition. if I did not have experiences in mnay other cities, I would not make statements like...the roads in Houston are on par with the third world. Just my two cents. I can name several other cities with pretty bad roads...probably just as third world as Houston. Certainly there are some wonderful roads in Houston as well. The Redneck freeway a.K.a The 59N is purty nice in parts.

Don't get me wrong--there are streets in Houston that I'm aware of that are in as bad a shape as anything I've ever seen in Mexican border towns. The warehouse district east of downtown has a few... But, if you compare the whole of our infrastructure with that of a city of comparable size in Mexico (bearing in mind that Mex is not as poor as third world poverty can get), we're solidly ahead.

Perhaps you just need to get out of the touristy areas and business districts when you travel.

[MiDTOWNeR]

Perhaps you just need to get out of the touristy areas and business districts when you travel.

Yeah thats right. Thats me Big ole tourista

[WesternGulf]

I usually see where MiDTOWNeR is coming from, but I don't see the argument as far as bad roads. I actually thought the state spent to much money on freeway and road "improvements".

[Houston19514]

And this matter of street quality is something that has been objectively studied... Of the studies I've seen, there is no support for the "opinion" that Houston's streets are the worst in the world or similar hyperbole that we often see here. The most recent study I've seen was of metro areas over 500,000 and Houston was solidly in the middle of the pack.

Edited November 2, 2006 by Houston19514

[CDeb]

I've driven in many parts of the United States, and if my personal opinion is that anyone who thinks the roads in Houston are awful doesn't get off the freeway much in their travels to other places. On the whole, Houston roads are actually quite good, in my experience.

The most awful roads in the country are in California. Even worse than Louisiana's.

[Montrose1100]

I've driven in many parts of the United States, and if my personal opinion is that anyone who thinks the roads in Houston are awful doesn't get off the freeway much in their travels to other places. On the whole, Houston roads are actually quite good, in my experience.

The most awful roads in the country are in California. Even worse than Louisiana's.

Worse then Louisiana? NO WAY!

I think Pennsylvania & Louisiana top the nation.

[RedScare]

And this matter of street quality is something that has been objectively studied...

Well there's your problem right there! Midtowner doesn't do objective. He just throws the skunk in the room, and when everyone complains of the smell, he claims that they are in denial. So, you can just take those objective studies right on outta here.

[MiDTOWNeR]

Well there's your problem right there! Midtowner doesn't do objective. He just throws the skunk in the room, and when everyone complains of the smell, he claims that they are in denial. So, you can just take those objective studies right on outta here.

And this matter of street quality is something that has been objectively studied... Of the studies I've seen, there is no support for the "opinion" that Houston's streets are the worst in the world or similar hyperbole that we often see here. The most recent study I've seen was of metro areas over 500,000 and Houston was solidly in the middle of the pack.

Please enlighten us with the "studies" of the opinions on Houston road quality.

I would make the same argument of you all. You all do not want to believe that anything is wrong with this town. Furthermore, I have made clear that it is my OPINION that the roads can be pretty bad. I dont come on claiming to have seen this study or that study, or know such and such for fact. Just state an opinion. And despite what you would like ot believe, I belive that my experiences allow for me to express such opinions. I am not calling Houston bad for the sake of calling Houston bad. In comparison, its...bad. And OMG, who do i think i am with such opinions. "You had better prove that thar statement you just made that spoke poorly of my town Houston." Get a grip folks. To spend so much energy on little ole me is a bit much. But I guess there is a bit of a culture of defense in these parts. It only lends credence to some of my statements to so vehemently cry foul over my opinions.

We covet what we know. If Houston is all you know, then I guess it makes sense that it must be right to you.

Funny thing about road resurfacing. Just prior to the resurfacing, they are almost ALWAYS horrible. I wonder why that is?

It's how "horrible" they are allowed to get that is an issue.

Edited November 2, 2006 by MiDTOWNeR

[CDeb]

Worse then Louisiana? NO WAY!

I think Pennsylvania & Louisiana top the nation.

I used to live in Louisiana. They were pretty bad. But I was shocked driving around California, especially once you get outside the urban areas.

[Houston19514]

Please enlighten us with the "studies" of the opinions on Houston road quality.

I would make the same argument of you all. You all do not want to believe that anything is wrong with this town. Furthermore, I have made clear that it is my OPINION that the roads can be pretty bad. I dont come on claiming to have seen this study or that study, or know such and such for fact. Just state an opinion. And despite what you would like ot believe, I belive that my experiences allow for me to express such opinions. I am not calling Houston bad for the sake of calling Houston bad. In comparison, its...bad. And OMG, who do i think i am with such opinions. "You had better prove that thar statement you just made that spoke poorly of my town Houston." Get a grip folks. To spend so much energy on little ole me is a bit much. But I guess there is a bit of a culture of defense in these parts. It only lends credence to some of my statements to so vehemently cry foul over my opinions.

We covet what we know. If Houston is all you know, then I guess it makes sense that it must be right to you.

It's how "horrible" they are allowed to get that is an issue.

Don't be a tendentious idiot. NOBODY here thinks that there is nothing at all wrong with Houston. Yes, you are entitled to whatever unfounded opinions you want to stick to. You seem to have a problem accepting that other people have less negative opinions of Houston than you do. And you seem to WANT to ignore all the facts that are presented that are contrary to your opinion. (Like the miles and miles of smooth streets you seem to have overlooked but other people were able to post without even giving it a thought.)

Oh, and, not that you are interested in any objective views or analysis, but here you go: Road Conditions of metros over 500,000

[WesternGulf]

Looks like MiDTOWNeR's beloved San Diego is worse than Houston. What paradise did you come from before you moved to Houston anyway Midtowner? Did you move here for the sole purpose to spread the word that there are better cities out there than Houston? I am not saying you are not entitled to an opinion, hell I agree with you on some things actually, but when over 80% of your post are geared towards how third world Houston is, it gets tiring.

edit: and for some of those high percentage points cities that have over 50% on the good list, I can say that I'll past except for Miami and Seattle. Tells how much of a non issue this is.

Edited November 3, 2006 by WesternGulf

[HeightsGuy]

Houston has the worst roads? Haha, that's good. Why don't you try taking a spin around downtown Boston. Better yet, Detroit. Oh yeah, been to Phili lately? Come back with something better than that please.....

[RedScare]

Looks like MiDTOWNeR's beloved San Diego is worse than Houston.

Worse than Houson? Hell, San Diego is worse than NEW ORLEANS!

You know what midtowner, you just can't STAND that us Houston hayseeds enjoy ourselves. It's almost not fun making a fool of you anymore.

EDIT: By the way, check out LA while you're at it. Talk about Third World....try 3%.

Edited November 3, 2006 by RedScare

[MiDTOWNeR]

unfounded opinions you want to stick to.

Unfounded? Cause you dont agree with them.

You seem to have a problem accepting that other people have less negative opinions of Houston than you do.

I don't have a "problem" with people liking Houston. It is comical how defensive everyone on this board is toward my comments. "But wait i drove on a smooth roade, here, let me list them" TOO FUNNY!

And you seem to WANT to ignore all the facts that are presented that are contrary to your opinion.

What "facts" Its a bunch of folks just presenting their opinions as well. I never said there were not smooth roads here. There are just a bunch that aren't smooth.

Oh, and, not that you are interested in any objective views or analysis, but here you go: Road Conditions of metros over 500,000

What sort of "study" is this anyway. "Percentage Mediocre?". Can you put the whole study on here, or would it be too large? It would be interesting to see it.

You know what midtowner, you just can't STAND that us Houston hayseeds enjoy ourselves. It's almost not fun making a fool of you anymore.

You are right. Keeps me up at night actually.

[uncertaintraveler]

Oh, and, not that you are interested in any objective views or analysis, but here you go: Road Conditions of metros over 500,000

At best, the "study" that you linked to doesn't support your claim and, at worst, doesn't reveal anything. No where does the "study" you linked to state what year the study was performed, define what constitutes "poor," "mediocre," "fair," or "good," or what measures are used to determine how a road falls into any of those four categories. Without knowing what the terms mean and how the scoring system works, your "study" is just a bunch of random numbers assigned to random categories for random cities. So, as far as I am concerned, the "study" is no more valid or supportable than someone's mere "unfounded" opinion.

That being said, I guess we can all agree that poor is worse than mediocre, which is worse than fair, which is worse than good, right? So, that being the case, you would agree that according to the "study" 56% of Houston's roads are considered to be poor or mediocre, while only 44% of Houston's roads are considered to be fair or good. Hummm....doesn't take a genius to realize that means Houston has more "bad" roads than "decent" roads. I don't have the time to do the math on all the cities listed in the "study," but from a quick scan, it looks like, based solely on that measurement, Houston is probably somewhere in the middle of the ranked cities. Not exactly something to be proud of, unless you believe that Houston deserves praise for merely being better than the worst.

Edited November 3, 2006 by uncertaintraveler

[Houston19514]

Here's the full report

[Houston19514]

At best, the "study" that you linked to doesn't support your claim and, at worst, doesn't reveal anything. No where does the "study" you linked to state what year the study was performed, define what constitutes "poor," "mediocre," "fair," or "good," or what measures are used to determine how a road falls into any of those four categories. Without knowing what the terms mean and how the scoring system works, your "study" is just a bunch of random numbers assigned to random categories for random cities. So, as far as I am concerned, the "study" is no more valid or supportable than someone's mere "unfounded" opinion.

That being said, I guess we can all agree that poor is worse than mediocre, which is worse than fair, which is worse than good, right? So, that being the case, you would agree that according to the "study" 56% of Houston's roads are considered to be poor or mediocre, while only 44% of Houston's roads are considered to be fair or good. Hummm....doesn't take a genius to realize that means Houston has more "bad" roads than "decent" roads. I don't have the time to do the math on all the cities listed in the "study," but from a quick scan, it looks like, based solely on that measurement, Houston is probably somewhere in the middle of the ranked cities. Not exactly something to be proud of, unless you believe that Houston deserves praise for merely being better than the worst.

I've now given you the full study, so knock yourself out. (It was published LAST MONTH), and it was for all metro areas over 500,000 (as I already said).

Yes, we can all whine that the roads are not perfect, but the fact is, and the objective study proves it to be the case, that Houston is FAR from the worst, contrary to what you would have had us believe. Nobody in this thread said Houston's roads or its relative ranking on road quality were something to be "proud" of. Neither is ranking solidly in the middle of the pack something to be ashamed of.

But more to the point, you did not start this conversation by telling us that we should not be proud of our roads;

You did not start this conversation by telling us that Houston had an average proportion of bad roads.

You did not start this conversation by telling us that more than half of Houston's roads were mediocre or worse.

No, you started this conversation by telling us that the only smooth road in town was Allen Parkway, and that basically, the rest of the roads were an embarassment. It should be obvious to everyone (perhaps even you) that that statement was, well, choose your poison... false, unfounded, ignorant, idiotic, ...

At best, the "study" that you linked to doesn't support your claim and, at worst, doesn't reveal anything. No where does the "study" you linked to state what year the study was performed, define what constitutes "poor," "mediocre," "fair," or "good," or what measures are used to determine how a road falls into any of those four categories. Without knowing what the terms mean and how the scoring system works, your "study" is just a bunch of random numbers assigned to random categories for random cities. So, as far as I am concerned, the "study" is no more valid or supportable than someone's mere "unfounded" opinion.

That being said, I guess we can all agree that poor is worse than mediocre, which is worse than fair, which is worse than good, right? So, that being the case, you would agree that according to the "study" 56% of Houston's roads are considered to be poor or mediocre, while only 44% of Houston's roads are considered to be fair or good. Hummm....doesn't take a genius to realize that means Houston has more "bad" roads than "decent" roads. I don't have the time to do the math on all the cities listed in the "study," but from a quick scan, it looks like, based solely on that measurement, Houston is probably somewhere in the middle of the ranked cities. Not exactly something to be proud of, unless you believe that Houston deserves praise for merely being better than the worst.

I've now given you the full study, so knock yourself out. (It was published LAST MONTH), and it was for all metro areas over 500,000 (as I already said).

Yes, we can all whine that the roads are not perfect, but the fact is, and the objective study proves it to be the case, that Houston is FAR from the worst, contrary to what you would have had us believe. Nobody in this thread said Houston's roads or its relative ranking on road quality were something to be "proud" of. Neither is ranking solidly in the middle of the pack something to be ashamed of.

But more to the point, you did not start this conversation by telling us that we should not be proud of our roads;

You did not start this conversation by telling us that Houston had an average proportion of bad roads.

You did not start this conversation by telling us that more than half of Houston's roads were mediocre or worse.

No, you started this conversation by telling us that the only smooth road in town was Allen Parkway, and that basically, the rest of the roads were an embarassment. It should be obvious to everyone (perhaps even you) that that statement was, well, choose your poison... false, unfounded, ignorant, idiotic, ...

PS (In fact, AT BEST, my prior posting of the study results did in fact, support my claim, which was merely that objective studies show that not all of Houston's roads are bad)

[uncertaintraveler]

I've now given you the full study, so knock yourself out. (It was published LAST MONTH), and it was for all metro areas over 500,000 (as I already said).

Yes, we can all whine that the roads are not perfect, but the fact is, and the objective study proves it to be the case, that Houston is FAR from the worst, contrary to what you would have had us believe. Nobody in this thread said Houston's roads or its relative ranking on road quality were something to be "proud" of. Neither is ranking solidly in the middle of the pack something to be ashamed of.

But more to the point, you did not start this conversation by telling us that we should not be proud of our roads;

You did not start this conversation by telling us that Houston had an average proportion of bad roads.

You did not start this conversation by telling us that more than half of Houston's roads were mediocre or worse.

No, you started this conversation by telling us that the only smooth road in town was Allen Parkway, and that basically, the rest of the roads were an embarassment. It should be obvious to everyone (perhaps even you) that that statement was, well, choose your poison... false, unfounded, ignorant, idiotic, ...

Any particular reason why you felt the need to write the same thing twice?

Nice of you to provide the full report...of course, you only did so after we asked you for it, and not intially. After scanning the report, I can see why you did this. The report only discussed "major streets and highways," which the report defines as:

"[a]ll Interstates and limited-access freeways, as well as other major city streets and routes within an urban area. Most routes that have at least four-lanes are arterial routes, although some key two-lane roads

are also classified as arterial routes."

So....ummm...that would mean that most two-lane city roads weren't considered, right??? Heck, I have never said that our highways and major roads weren't in good shape...instead, I have said (or certainly intended to say), that our streets (but not our highways) are in horrible shape. I guess we can dispute what "major city streets and routes" refers to, but I guess they are referring to roads like 1960, Shepherd, Kirby, Westheimer, and most of the roads Redscare listed previously---and not two-lane inner-city roads?

Also, although the report provides the rating method (although I don't know enough about the IRI to really know how it measures anything), I notice the report states that

"Roads rated as poor may have cracked or broken pavements. These roads often show significant signs of pavement wear and deterioration and may also have significant distress in their underlying foundation. Road or highway surfaces rated poor provide an unacceptable ride quality and are in need of resurfacing

and some need to be reconstructed to correct problems in the underlying road deck. Roads rated as being in either mediocre or fair condition may also show some signs of deterioration and may be noticeably inferior to those of new pavements . . ."

That paragraph implies than anything less than a road rated as "good" needs work and improvement. I imagine you'll disagree with my assessment, but I believe my interpretation is certainly a reasonable one. But under this interpretation of what constitutes a "good" road, Houston (with 24% of its roads rated as "good") now appears to be in the bottom quarter of the rankings.

Look, I can see that we are never going to agree on this subject. But my view on this issue is most certainly not "false, unfounded, ignorant, [or] idiotic." And, yes, it is an absolute embarrassment to drive visitors down Airline or Monroe on the way to Hobby. Perhaps I should be more careful in the use of "absolutes," such as the word "only," although I note that in a prior post, I admitted that Houston did a few more smooth roads than I initially mentioned. But it is absolutely crazy to not believe that Houston needs to improve its roads and quite disheartening to realize the amount of vitriol that people have when someone merely makes an observation.