Houston Freight Rail Plan web site

[KinkaidAlum]

The idea of corporate welfare is entirely incompatible with free market philosophies.

That's the point. We don't have a free market despite what neo-cons like to tell us...

[nmainguy]

The idea of corporate welfare is entirely incompatible with free market philosophies.

Let me guess who said that

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You're right though, we don't have a free market. We have a corporate-welfare based market. Highly subsidized in favor of huge corporations at the expense of the tax-payer. ADM is the biggest example: they buy corn at subsidized prices then they use the corn to make corn-based sweeteners [fructose, etc...] which are subsidized by the sugar program. What's left is used for ethanol-their largest subsidy. It's the biggest proponents of "free-market" talk that benefit the most from just the opposite.

That's the reality we live in.

[TheNiche]

That's the point. We don't have a free market despite what neo-cons like to tell us...

Which of the neo-cons is claiming a free market as among their goals? That'd be outright hypocracy unless they want to do away with antitrust regulation, the Federal Reserve, and their own personal pork barrel programs. It'd be libertarianism at its most extreme -- anarchy.

[TheNiche]

We have a corporate-welfare based market. Highly subsidized in favor of huge corporations at the expense of the tax-payer. ADM is the biggest example: they buy corn at subsidized prices then they use the corn to make corn-based sweeteners [fructose, etc...] which are subsidized by the sugar program. What's left is used for ethanol-their largest subsidy. It's the biggest proponents of "free-market" talk that benefit the most from just the opposite.

That's the reality we live in.

There really isn't any such thing as corporate welfare, as all corporations are privately-owned. What is commonly referred to as corporate welfare actually comprises a relatively narrow set of government transfer payments to corporations that are owned disproportionately by the middle- and upper-classes. And, of course, we have transfer payments to the poor. So in its most simplified form, we have a big government that just shuffles a lot of money around between everybody in a very confusing and wasteful way.

Now there are incentive programs, for instance to agribusiness, so that market failures can be corrected. Food is a good example, and I'm glad that you brought up ADM. What is the most critical thing necessary to sustain basic civility and ensure the survival and continuity of political systems? Food. If people lose their homes by a natural or economic disaster, things are bad (witness New Orleans). If people can't eat, any semblance of social order disolves. Subsidy to agribusiness as a means of ensuring that we have a sufficient inventory of crops under various circumstances to last us through a major disaster or economic disruption is no more or less comparable to investing in the military (for defensive purposes). As screwy as our government can be, I'd rather not risk having to rebuild it from the ground up. I'm not sure that we'd be able to duplicate such a well-balanced system.

[MiDTOWNeR]

Nobody said Houston is perfect. No city is.

But many on here...yourself included act as though noone has the right to dis Houston.

You act as though we're in some way unique by claiming that we have a bad reputation for train noise, but we clearly aren't.

Interesting twist that you COMPLETELY MADE UP!

Your argument that I'm acting in my own economic self-interest is amusing.

I wasn't "arguing" anything. Just making a statement.

No, I have a way of talking down to people when my arguments are strictly dominant, readily apparent, and especially once they've been restated multiple times. I can accept that my communication attempt may have been a bit unclear on a first time around, but once I'm restating myself in no uncertain terms and somebody still isn't getting it..

I dont think it's a matter of one not "getting it" Just that perhaps you are the one not getting it. So you feel as though you have to just reword what your trying to say over an over. Like people who tend to think they are always right.

Edited October 30, 2006 by MiDTOWNeR

[nmainguy]

So you feel as though you have to just reword what your trying to say over an over.

Hey MiD!!! I defend niche's right to twist himself into an almost impossible pretzel all he wants.

[TheNiche]

But many on here...yourself included act as though noone has the right to dis Houston.

No I don't. I just can't stand it when people either make or imply infactual assertions. If you're talking about a city having a bad reputation for something, then for the concept of "reputation" to mean anything, the assumption must be made that other cities don't have these problems and that there are perceptible relative differences.

If, on the other hand, you want to say that Houston has a bad rep for traffic congestion during rush hour, I'd have to agree with you. There are worse places out there, but your statement is still reasonable.

Interesting twist that you COMPLETELY MADE UP!

See above.

I wasn't "arguing" anything. Just making a statement.

You stated: "... I know you need to take down the nay sayers so they dont ruin your market." The premises were that I own property in Eastwood and that I'm acting in my own financial self-interest; the conclusion was that this was the reason that I was "taking down the nay sayers". When there are premises and a conclusion, you have made an argument. And I refuted it with evidence from a previous post.

I dont think it's a matter of one not "getting it" Just that perhaps you are the one not getting it. So you feel as though you have to just reword what your trying to say over an over. Like people who tend to think they are always right.

Yeah, I do. I have this irrational hope that certain people will have the basic decency to retract comments when they're shown to be wrong...just as I have in the past on other threads.

[MiDTOWNeR]

What has been shown to be wrong?

Sorry, but I missed your whole bit about Eastwood. I dont even know what Eastwood is to be honest. So my statement was not directed toward that.

[HeightsGuy]

Anyone notice anything interesting about the Seal of Houston? It didn't become part of the seal because someone thought it looked cool. Trains and railroads have been part of the fabric of Houston since it's incorporation. Stop complaining and embrace them, they are as much a part of Houston as cabs are to NYC.

[nmainguy]

Trains and railroads have been part of the fabric of Houston since it's incorporation. Stop complaining and embrace them...

I prefer to embrace my inner plow

[TheNiche]

What has been shown to be wrong?

See post #37, which references post #10.

Sorry, but I missed your whole bit about Eastwood. I dont even know what Eastwood is to be honest. So my statement was not directed toward that.

You stated: "...so I know you need to take down the nay sayers so they dont ruin your market." I actually own property in Eastwood, which is affected by rail noise (discussed by danax and I in posts #2 and #3), and I have made that knowledge publicly available on this forum. My understanding was that you were in all likelihood referencing this fact.

My professional involvement in real estate is dependent upon the growth of the metro area (and to some extent other metro areas) and is for the most part independent of where that growth occurs.

[HeightsGuy]

Houston has the sixth largest port in the world, which happens to dead-end in the east-end. That cargo's gotta go somewhere. Take away the railroads and you increase 18 wheeler traffic tenfold or more (I think it takes an average of 200 18 wheelers to move the cargo of an average train). Which would you prefer, train whistles every few hours or the continuous rumble of 18 wheelers rumbling down the road blowing diesel fumes. Choose your poison.

[TheNiche]

Houston has the sixth largest port in the world, which happens to dead-end in the east-end. That cargo's gotta go somewhere. Take away the railroads and you increase 18 wheeler traffic tenfold or more (I think it takes an average of 200 18 wheelers to move the cargo of an average train). Which would you prefer, train whistles every few hours or the continuous rumble of 18 wheelers rumbling down the road blowing diesel fumes. Choose your poison.

Were you asking me?

[HeightsGuy]

Were you asking me?

Nah, it was rhetorical.

[RedScare]

Anyone notice anything interesting about the Seal of Houston? It didn't become part of the seal because someone thought it looked cool. Trains and railroads have been part of the fabric of Houston since it's incorporation. Stop complaining and embrace them, they are as much a part of Houston as cabs are to NYC.

"Houston. Where 17 railroads meet the sea."

--Slogan used by the Houston Chamber of Commerce, circa 1850.

http://www.houstonhistory.com/decades/history5b.htm

[MiDTOWNeR]

I have said nothing in regards to getting rid of the railroads or that they are as a whole bad for the city. Not in the least have i made that conclusion or even insinuated anything of the sort.

Considering the importance of railroads to the city, it would make sense that the infrastructure be much better than what it is. The at grade crossings, let alone on some of the busier streets in the city should have been addressed LONG AGO. At grade crossings..especially in residential areas slow down all of that cargo. Time is money as I have commented before.

The trains add a neat gritty out in the sticks feel to some of the more heavier populated areas which is kinda neat...in my opinion. Having grown up out west, I rather enjoy the hot humid evenings in the summer and the roar of the trains plowing through town. They are a novelty to me.

Anyone notice anything interesting about the Seal of Houston?

this was pointed out to me in a previous thread by redscare. I'm not sure what is so "interesting" about it, however, Please enlighten me.

Edited October 31, 2006 by MiDTOWNeR

[HeightsGuy]

I'm not sure what is so "interesting" about it, however, Please enlighten me.

Do I really have to, or was that rhetorical too....

[uncertaintraveler]

Houston has the sixth largest port in the world, which happens to dead-end in the east-end. That cargo's gotta go somewhere. Take away the railroads and you increase 18 wheeler traffic tenfold or more (I think it takes an average of 200 18 wheelers to move the cargo of an average train). Which would you prefer, train whistles every few hours or the continuous rumble of 18 wheelers rumbling down the road blowing diesel fumes. Choose your poison.

I think you are neglecting, or overlooking, a possible solution. I doubt most people care about train noise during the day--perhaps those who are taking care of newborns, or noise-sensitive individuals might, but I'd imagine they only represent a very small minority of the populace. The gripe of most people is train noise at night, say, from 10:00 p.m. to 6:00 a.m. I doubt any rational person disputes that cargo must be shipped and trains are probably the most efficient method of transporting the cargo.... but there is absolutely no reason why something cannot be done to stop the trains from blowing their horns at night. And, in any event, if you are at a railroad crossing at night and you see a bright light coming down the track, if you don't know that it isn't safe to cross then I don't think any amount of horn blowing is going to save you from your own incompetence.

So, quite honestly, if the choice was only between train whistles every few hours or the rumble of 18 wheelers, I'd go with the trucks, because you can insulate road noise better than you can insulate train horns....but the question should really be would you rather have train noise from 6:00 am to 10:00 pm or a constant rumble of trucks?

Considering the importance of railroads to the city, it would make sense that the infrastructure be much better than what it is. The at grade crossings, let alone on some of the busier streets in the city should have been addressed LONG AGO. At grade crossings..especially in residential areas slow down all of that cargo. Time is money as I have commented before.

Absolutely agree. Houston's infrastructure, as a whole, is horrible. Not only should the train lines have better grade separation, but the condition of our roads, in general, are hardly better than those in Cambodia. Its embarrassing how bad the roads are into and out of Hobby and how the only smooth road in town basically consists of just a 5 mile stretch (if its that long...) down Allen Parkway and Kirby.

[musicman]

Absolutely agree. Houston's infrastructure, as a whole, is horrible. Not only should the train lines have better grade separation, but the condition of our roads, in general, are hardly better than those in Cambodia. Its embarrassing how bad the roads are into and out of Hobby and how the only smooth road in town basically consists of just a 5 mile stretch (if its that long...) down Allen Parkway and Kirby.

whistles aren't the only problem. blocking roads/intersections for long periods of time is a major problem on the east side. This violates law. noise is secondary, which in this instance doesn't violate the law.

a generalization of houston's infrastructure vs. cambodia's seems like a weak comparison.

[uncertaintraveler]

a generalization of houston's infrastructure vs. cambodia's seems like a weak comparison.

Huh? I was comparing Houston's roads with those of Cambodia's....and I would suspect that if you have visited Cambodia, you would agree that our roads are only marginally better than theirs. Regardless, pick any "third-world" nation you'd like--I'd wager that if you were driving blindfolded on theirs and ours, you'd be hard-pressed to know which roads belong to which nation.

[MiDTOWNeR]

Do I really have to, or was that rhetorical too....

Um, you don't "have to" anything.

[musicman]

Huh? I was comparing Houston's roads with those of Cambodia's....and I would suspect that if you have visited Cambodia, you would agree that our roads are only marginally better than theirs. Regardless, pick any "third-world" nation you'd like--I'd wager that if you were driving blindfolded on theirs and ours, you'd be hard-pressed to know which roads belong to which nation.

infrastructure is more than roads....

there are bad roads in EVERY city that are like those found in 3rd world countries.

I don't drive blindfolded nor do i know anyone that does.

Edited October 31, 2006 by musicman

[MiDTOWNeR]

there are bad roads in EVERY city that are like those found in 3rd world countries.

Typical response, from the hey, Houston ain't dat bad crowd.

Many of the roads are pretty bad.

Edited November 1, 2006 by MiDTOWNeR

[musicman]

Typical response,

as are your generalizations.

[Houston19514]

When I see these posts claiming that Houston's streets and roads are all in horrible condition and the freeways are all strewn with litter and trash, I wonder if the posters are in the same Houston I visit often or if I perhaps have been accidentally going to the wrong city.

Sure there are some bad streets, but the interesting thing to me is that, when I'm in Houston I particularly notice when I'm on a bad street, because the vast majority I encounter are quite good. The same with the freeways; In the time I lived there and in the many many visits since, I have never seen a freeway that was particularly dirty or noticeably strewn with litter or trash. And I especially pay attention to these things when I visit, because after reading the comments on this board, I begin to wonder if perhaps I have been missing something all these years. Sure, there are some bad streets in Houston (show me a city about which that cannot be said), but it is beyond ridiculous to say that the only smooth road in all of Houston is the five-mile stretch of Allen Parkway/Kirby.

[MiDTOWNeR]

as are your generalizations.

Must be something to them if they keep coming up.

It is the continual denail that keeps things they way they are in Houston. Oh well.

Edited November 1, 2006 by MiDTOWNeR

[musicman]

Must be something to them if they keep coming up.

It is the continual denail that keeps things they way they are in Houston. Oh well.

they keep coming up cause you keep repeating them.

i will repeat too. The houston infrastructure is not like a 3rd world country.

Remember my lesson from earlier. Infrastructure is more than roads.

[RedScare]

It is the continual denail that keeps things they way they are in Houston. Oh well.

I knew there must be a reason! Thanks, midtowner! Without you to point out what was wrong, the entire city would have gone down the tubes!

Well, your work here is done. Might as well act on those suicidal tendencies you always seem to have whenever you post here. We'll sure miss you.

[uncertaintraveler]

When I see these posts claiming that Houston's streets and roads are all in horrible condition and the freeways are all strewn with litter and trash, I wonder if the posters are in the same Houston I visit often or if I perhaps have been accidentally going to the wrong city.

Sure there are some bad streets, but the interesting thing to me is that, when I'm in Houston I particularly notice when I'm on a bad street, because the vast majority I encounter are quite good. The same with the freeways; In the time I lived there and in the many many visits since, I have never seen a freeway that was particularly dirty or noticeably strewn with litter or trash. And I especially pay attention to these things when I visit, because after reading the comments on this board, I begin to wonder if perhaps I have been missing something all these years. Sure, there are some bad streets in Houston (show me a city about which that cannot be said), but it is beyond ridiculous to say that the only smooth road in all of Houston is the five-mile stretch of Allen Parkway/Kirby.

Granted, I rarely venture outside of a small area bounded by on the South by Rice University, on the North by I-10, on the West by the Voss/Blalock area, and on the East by Main Street, and I admit that during my few times on 59 North I was impressed with the quality of the road, but if you could direct me to a stretch of road within the city limits of Houston and maintained by the city of Houston (i.e., residential and subdivision streets don't count) longer than 5 miles that is smooth throughout its entire length, I would greatly appreciate it. Heck, I'll even lower my requirement to a one-mile stretch....

And, by "smooth," I mean that the pavement is not broken up, there are no potholes, that the asphalt is completely even so that every ten feet or so one part of the road is higher than the part immediately adjcent thereto, and that manhole covers are not embedded into the pavement creating an indention in the surface of the roadway.

Good luck.

[RedScare]

Studewood, between White Oak and 20th.

Milam, downtown through midtown

Smith, same

Travis, same

Louisiana, sam

Fannin, same

San Jacinto, same

Main Street, same

Kirby (previously mentioned)

Bomar (south of Gray)

Greenbriar, Rice U to US 59

...among others.