Houston Freight Rail Plan web site

[MaxConcrete]

http://www.houstonrailplan.com/index.htm

It has nice maps and railroad histories

Over the years there has been talk of consolidating rail lines, building super-corridors (fully grade separated), and converting some rail lines to tollways. Recently there was talk of diverting freight, particularly hazardous cargo, around cities.

Well, it looks like it was all talk. The preliminary plan is quite modest and minimal. It mostly proposes adding additional track on many existing lines, mostly east and south of Houston. One all-new track is proposed northeast of Houston. The much-disliked track parallel to the West Loop remains intact as-is, with only some grade separations proposed, all having a benefit-cost ratio less than 1.

Dozens of grade separations are proposed, but only 11 have a benefit-cost ratio > 1

West Belt Sub(north-south, just east of downtown)

7.35 Quitman

4.99 Scott-York

1.76 Leeland

South Main (UP Glidden Sub)

4.76 Gessner

2.41 Kirkwood

2.06 Fondren

1.47 Dairy Ashford

1.02 FM 359

SH 3 (UP Galveston Sub)

1.31 Bay Area Blvd

UP Teminal Sub (N-S parallel to West Loop, E-W along I-20)

2.22 Houston street

2.59 Shepherd

.92 Bellaire

.71 Richmond

Edited October 25, 2006 by MaxConcrete

[TheNiche]

Dozens of grade separations are proposed, but only 11 have a benefit-cost ratio > 1

It is of great interest to me that these folks opted to allow the public access to the benefit/cost ratios for each project. Most governmental or quasipublic entities actively try to keep details to a minimum (assuming that they've even done a serious quantitative analysis). The reasoning, of course, is that the more detail that is provided, the more questions can be raised and the more easy it is to challenge the conclusions. And these kinds of entities don't like to lose face. METRO usually provides a good working example of this kind of lowly political engineering through measured ambiguity.

On the other hand, the sheer volume of data might have the effect of causing so many people to get all pissy that everybody's voices get drowned out by everybody else's, without specificity being brought to bear in the media. And specificity would be a very real political problem.

Anybody have any idea who the analyst was that came up with these numbers. I'd like to try and talk to him about his methodology, if only for curiosity's sake.

4.99 Scott-York

1.76 Leeland

They must've heard that I'd bought in the neighborhood.

[Guest danax]

They must've heard that I'd bought in the neighborhood.

Here's the proposal that will really affect Eastwood. Even though the closure of Walker and Rusk will sort of split the neighborhood in two, the elimination of the train whistle and crossing at Lockwood will probably be welcomed. Also, with MetroRail coming in at Harrisburg, having two rail crossings within blocks of each other would've been a mess.

[ricco67]

Danax,

I never even heard about that project going on. That's an area I grew up in and it's going to be interesting on how that's going to affect traffic flow.

But back to the main topic;

I think they're may not be very forthcoming with their plans due to the fact that a NIMBY group will go up.

While it may benifit those living in the inner city that live near the currently active lines, the lines will go up somewhere in the subdivisions. If it's a subdivision that is already finished, they might come out in force.

If the subdivision is under the construction or earlier stages, then the developers will go nuts.

just going to be interesting how this develops.

[marym]

I'm gobsmacked at the plan for Shepherd/Durham.

An 8 block flyover for Shepherd/Durham to get over the RR tracks?

It looks like they'll make a wasteland of all the restaurants in that area - Cyclone Anaya's,

Jax Grill, Mak Chin, Azuma, etc. All the businesses along Shepherd/Durham between Washington and I-10

will be wiped out.

I guess I'm one of those NIMBYs, but I hate the idea of TxDOT taking 8 blocks of property

to build a giant concrete flyover. I much prefer that TxDOT make two underpasses for Shepherd/Durham

similiar to Yale to minimize the effect on the neighborhoods. Yeah, it may flood a couple times a year, but that's better than destroying the blossoming Shepherd/Durham/Washington corridor.

[TheNiche]

Anybody have any idea who the analyst was that came up with these numbers. I'd like to try and talk to him about his methodology, if only for curiosity's sake.

I've only just now had a chance to review all of their data. According to the website, measures of public benefit were calculated in the following way:

The Texas Transportation Institute has created a Grade Crossing

[Guest danax]

The train whistle won't be eliminated because there are also crossings at Eastwood Street and Dumble Street that would remain. So from the neighborhood's vantage point, there'd almost definitely be more costs associated with the visual mess and divided neighborhood than there would be with any gains from congestion reduction. This is especially true since most local Eastwood trips aren't to the north, but to the west and south.

One less whistle will help anyway. There's also a similar proposal for my neighborhood and the one whistle/crossing that will be eliminated is the one near me. The others are far enough away to have almost no quality-of-life impact on my neighbors and I.

It will be interesting to see how the Eastwood community will react to this if it ever becomes a serious proposal. Even though the east-west mobility will be restricted, many might see that as positive, as only residents will be driving down the one-way streets. The East End, and maybe other parts of the city too, have a lot of side-street speeders it seems.

[uncertaintraveler]

The train whistle won't be eliminated because there are also crossings at Eastwood Street and Dumble Street that would remain.

Personally, I'm only affected by what goes on in the Durham/Shephard/T.C. Jester area, but I'm all for whatever it takes to get trains to stop blowing their #-ing horns. If that means tearing down every street crossing and dividing Houston in half or quarters or whatever, removing every business and home in a four-block area on both sides of the tracks, installing fifty billion dollar gates and fences that completely enclose the rail line, or something else entirely, then I'm all for it. Since Sunday night, the trains have blown their horn repeatedly every night at 1:00 am in the morning, and then again at around 4:00...often for what seems like 30 minutes at a time. And considering I live about a mile from the tracks, I don't even want to think about how bad it is for those who live even closer to them.

The train noise is just absolutely insane....and as I told my councilperson (or whatever they are called), if I can't sleep, I can't work; if I can't work, I don't make money; if I don't make money, I can't buy the goods the trains are shipping...so doesn't it make sense to do whatever is necessary so Houstonians can sleep???

[KinkaidAlum]

I agree with you on the noise. My mom's new old house is right off of Shepherd near West Gray. The train noise at night is out of control. On some nights, it seemed like a constant horn for half an hour or more!

I assume the noise is coming from the tracks near Washington?

[MiDTOWNeR]

Personally, I'm only affected by what goes on in the Durham/Shephard/T.C. Jester area, but I'm all for whatever it takes to get trains to stop blowing their f-ing horns. If that means tearing down every street crossing and dividing Houston in half or quarters or whatever, removing every business and home in a four-block area on both sides of the tracks, installing fifty billion dollar gates and fences that completely enclose the rail line, or something else entirely, then I'm all for it. Since Sunday night, the trains have blown their horn repeatedly every night at 1:00 am in the morning, and then again at around 4:00...often for what seems like 30 minutes at a time. And considering I live about a mile from the tracks, I don't even want to think about how bad it is for those who live even closer to them.

The train noise is just absolutely insane....and as I told my councilperson (or whatever they are called), if I can't sleep, I can't work; if I can't work, I don't make money; if I don't make money, I can't buy the goods the trains are shipping...so doesn't it make sense to do whatever is necessary so Houstonians can sleep???

And folks wonder why Houston has such a bad rep.

[TheNiche]

And folks wonder why Houston has such a bad rep.

Is this a problem that is unique to Houston?

[Justin]

Is this a problem that is unique to Houston?

No way.

I know you can get quiet zones established with the right safety treatments and such. I remember reading in the paper that the city of Beaumont is looking into doing it for an area on the west end of town that has two different sets of tracks along the north and south part of it.

Edited October 25, 2006 by Justin

[nmainguy]

It's surprising the Afton Oakies haven't started their little NIMBY campaign seeing how their neighborhood would be bracketed by two huge, noise producing over-passes on Westheimer and Richmond. If the one on Richmond IS going to be built, it would be nice to see TxDot, the city and METRO team up to do the bridge, Richmond reconstruction and LRT all at once. That would probably be asking too much.

[TheNiche]

It's surprising the Afton Oakies haven't started their little NIMBY campaign seeing how their neighborhood would be bracketed by two huge, noise producing over-passes on Westheimer and Richmond. If the one on Richmond IS going to be built, it would be nice to see TxDot, the city and METRO team up to do the bridge, Richmond reconstruction and LRT all at once. That would probably be asking too much.

Why would they need a NIMBY campaign? The TTI already concluded a benefit/cost ratio of 0.71.

[musicman]

All of the lines have been there for more than 50 yrs. I know when i purchased my home, I considered the noise because i also have trouble sleeping. airplanes on the otherhand don't bother me.

In any event, the trains were there before I was so they are just something I have to put up with because I chose to live there. The washington area and east side are very industrial and as a result there are trains and other businesses that make noise. As long as they aren't breaking laws, then there's really nothing you can force them to do.

[Montrose1100]

All of the lines have been there for more than 50 yrs. I know when i purchased my home, I considered the noise because i also have trouble sleeping. airplanes on the otherhand don't bother me.

In any event, the trains were there before I was so they are just something I have to put up with because I chose to live there. The washington area and east side are very industrial and as a result there are trains and other businesses that make noise. As long as they aren't breaking laws, then there's really nothing you can force them to do.

The washington area use to one of the big/few industrial areas on the westside... Nowadays, Steel wharehouses are being replaced with confined townhomes. (Used car lots are now townhomes, with retail spaces at the bottom).

It bothers me when someone moves next to a railroad track, and then bitches about the noise, and think the rail lines are in the wrong. I'm glad your not one of them musicman. I use to live in the west end (Blossom Street), and I could hear the horns at night.

[MiDTOWNeR]

Is this a problem that is unique to Houston?

For a city the size of Houston, and the density of housing inside the loop in the areas which were mentioned in the post i quoted..I would think that yes it is quite unique to Houston.

When taking into account the importance of the railroad infrastructure in Houston, this issue of SO MANY at grade crossings should have been addressed ages ago. It is dangerous, hurts property values and undoubtedly slows down the entire rail system as it prods through various areas of town due to the at grade crossings. And time is money$$$

It would be one thing to hear a horn blow one or two times as a train travels through a neighborhood, but the frequency at which these horns blow in the late evening and early morning hours is truly ridiculous.

Edited October 28, 2006 by MiDTOWNeR

[TheNiche]

For a city the size of Houston, and the density of housing inside the loop in the areas which were mentioned in the post i quoted..I would think that yes it is quite unique to Houston.

When taking into account the importance of the railroad infrastructure in Houston, this issue of SO MANY at grade crossings should have been addressed ages ago. It is dangerous, hurts property values and undoubtedly slows down the entire rail system as it prods through various areas of town due to the at grade crossings. And time is money$$$

It would be one thing to hear a horn blow one or two times as a train travels through a neighborhood, but the frequency at which these horns blow in the late evening and early morning hours is truly ridiculous.

I agree with you for the most part, or would at least like to see your observations incorporated into their economic analyses, but I'm still hesitant to believe that this is a problem unique to Houston. Even Austin, not a major rail hub, has the line that parallels South Lamar. Likewise, I'm sure that Dallas, Fort Worth, and San Antonio, which are major rail hubs, have these issues. Somebody correct me if I'm wrong.

[MiDTOWNeR]

Even Austin, not a major rail hub, has the line that parallels South Lamar. Likewise, I'm sure that Dallas, Fort Worth, and San Antonio, which are major rail hubs, have these issues. Somebody correct me if I'm wrong.

Are these cities the size of Houston?

[Montrose1100]

Are these cities the size of Houston?

"Size" as in population, or square miles? A city, is a city... is a city.

If you observe these rail lines and the population density along them, I'm sure Dallas, San Antonio, and Austin have similar populations and density along rail lines, however the only variable is that Houston may have more.

When you compare size in square miles, then no, I doubt Anchorage & Jacksonville have these problems. So in that sense, Houston is "unique".

When you compare in Population 'size', are you talking about city population, or the metro population? Because the only 2 cities close in city population are Chicago and Philadelphia. And I don't think you can line all 3 up, since I think we can all agree Houston is not similar to either. If your asking about metro population, then you have Dallas, Atlanta, Miami, Philadelphia, Boston, and Detroit.

[TheNiche]

If you observe these rail lines and the population density along them, I'm sure Dallas, San Antonio, and Austin have similar populations and density along rail lines, however the only variable is that Houston may have more.

Bingo.

[ricco67]

One of the sites of one of the largest railroad yards in america is located in Chicago. I'm not aware of where exactly it's located, but from what I understand, it's always been a major hub for the railroads since the railroads were first started and has been ever since.

Now as to where the lines are and how they're set up is beyond me, but I'm sure I might be able to figure it out. I know of a couple of train enthusiasts will probably tell me about it until I'm familiar with every significant tie located in the area.

[MiDTOWNeR]

Bingo.

And houston may have more at grade crossings resulting in more horn blowing. Again, unique to Houston. And again...given the economic impact of trains slowing to cross these at grade crossings. The fact that the rail infrastructure has not been upgraded to keep pace with population growth and traffic patterns is abysmal. Thumbs down to Houston on this one.

Edited October 29, 2006 by MiDTOWNeR

[MiDTOWNeR]

People people people

It is OKAY that Houston may have this downfall. It is not the end of the world. There are other things that Houston does much better than other places, so it is OKAY. Lets not lose sleep over this. Oh wait...those darn horns.

[Montrose1100]

People people people

It is OKAY that Houston may have this downfall. It is not the end of the world. There are other things that Houston does much better than other places, so it is OKAY. Lets not lose sleep over this. Oh wait...those darn horns.

If you move to LA, would you delicate flower about the earthquakes? How about the Hurricanes here? What if you moved next to a school, would you think the same way over the school-zone speed limit?

[TheNiche]

Again, unique to Houston.

No, it isn't. I gave you a specific example from Austin and another member gave you a specific example from Beaumont. There are plenty more out there; need I seek and post photos from Google Earth to illustrate my point?

[MiDTOWNeR]

If you move to LA, would you delicate flower about the earthquakes? How about the Hurricanes here? What if you moved next to a school, would you think the same way over the school-zone speed limit?

I would not delicate flower about earthquakes...I grew up with them. Hurricanes rock! I love severe weather...did not get much of that growing up. I would not move next to a school. Aren't school zone speeds the same everywhere?

Luckily where I live I only tend to hear the train horns blow one or two times a pop. However, I CHOSE to live there. That does not mean that I cannot point out something that I feel is a quality of life issue here the town of Houston. Don't be so defensive y'all. You would think I was preaching the anti christ or sometin'

No, it isn't. I gave you a specific example from Austin and another member gave you a specific example from Beaumont. There are plenty more out there; need I seek and post photos from Google Earth to illustrate my point?

Yes it is. i said...for a city the size of HOUSTON...not Austin...not Beaumont etc. You take 'size' to mean what you want...since that is what you will do anyway to "win" your argument.

And if you have the time...knock yourself out..Google Earth away. I love looking at the satelite images. That will still not provide the SOUND of the blowing horns( u could add them in yourself i suppose-wait, you just might do that) or the back up on San Felipe, Westheimer, and & Richmond when said trains cross.

I have merely pointed something out that is really just stating the obvious yet y'all are like seriously on the path to prove me wrong...but then again that is nothing new after reading this board for a while. Houston ain't perfect...i know many of you know that, but goodness y'all are gonna make your heads explode or something over this and other Houston shortcomings. And, lets just entertain the idea that other towns do have this same issue...does it make it okay? Does it THEN not hurt property values or the qaulity of life in other areas?

But then again...I understand that real estate is something of interest to nitchy, so I know you need to take down the nay sayers so they dont ruin your market.

Edited October 29, 2006 by MiDTOWNeR

[nmainguy]

And if you have the time...knock yourself out..Google Earth away. I love looking at the satelite images. That will still not provide the SOUND of the blowing horns( u could add them in yourself i suppose-wait, you just might do that) or the back up on San Felipe, Westheimer, and & Richmond when said trains cross.

niche has a way talking down to you when his "arguments" teeter on the brink of collapse: "Go read a textbook and come back" or "need I seek and post photos from Google Earth to illustrate my point?" as if you were just a stupid child who can't live without his sage wisdom.

I have found it best to leave him on ignore and only be exposed to his redundancy when you guys quote him.

BTW, I agree when you say: "The fact that the rail infrastructure has not been upgraded to keep pace with population growth and traffic patterns is abysmal." It's the cost we pay when we allow the corporate-welfare based "free market" to run rough-shod over the quality of life-or lack there-of in Houston.

[TheNiche]

Yes it is. i said...for a city the size of HOUSTON...not Austin...not Beaumont etc. You take 'size' to mean what you want...since that is what you will do anyway to "win" your argument.

City size is entirely irrelevant. See post #20.

And if you have the time...knock yourself out..Google Earth away. I love looking at the satelite images. That will still not provide the SOUND of the blowing horns( u could add them in yourself i suppose-wait, you just might do that) or the back up on San Felipe, Westheimer, and & Richmond when said trains cross.

Why would I look at Houston? I already have a pretty intimate knowledge of how this city is laid out.

Btw, the congestion factors were taken into account by TTI. See post #6.

I have merely pointed something out that is really just stating the obvious yet y'all are like seriously on the path to prove me wrong...but then again that is nothing new after reading this board for a while. Houston ain't perfect...i know many of you know that, but goodness y'all are gonna make your heads explode or something over this and other Houston shortcomings. And, lets just entertain the idea that other towns do have this same issue...does it make it okay? Does it THEN not hurt property values or the qaulity of life in other areas?

But then again...I understand that real estate is something of interest to nitchy, so I know you need to take down the nay sayers so they dont ruin your market.

Nobody said Houston is perfect. No city is. You act as though we're in some way unique by claiming that we have a bad reputation for train noise, but we clearly aren't.

And nobody is saying that train noise is a good or a neutral thing to have around residential areas, but that wasn't the point. Your argument that I'm acting in my own economic self-interest is amusing. See the last paragraph of post #6. Why would I have pointed that out in a neighborhood in which I own?

[TheNiche]

niche has a way talking down to you when his "arguments" teeter on the brink of collapse: "Go read a textbook and come back" or "need I seek and post photos from Google Earth to illustrate my point?" as if you were just a stupid child who can't live without his sage wisdom.

I have found it best to leave him on ignore and only be exposed to his redundancy when you guys quote him.

No, I have a way of talking down to people when my arguments are strictly dominant, readily apparent, and especially once they've been restated multiple times. I can accept that my communication attempt may have been a bit unclear on a first time around, but once I'm restating myself in no uncertain terms and somebody still isn't getting it...I'm sorry, but I get frustrated, so the message gets converted to something that the lowest common denominator can understand. And if that makes me sound like I'm trying to talk to a child...forgive me...I don't have any remaining options other than to just ignore you. Eventually, I do exercise that option. I am not a professional educator; nor do I post on this forum for your educational benefit. That I ever repeat myself to you should be considered a personal favor.

Now if someone would please quote me...

It's the cost we pay when we allow the corporate-welfare based "free market" to run rough-shod over the quality of life-or lack there-of in Houston.

The idea of corporate welfare is entirely incompatible with free market philosophies.