METRORail University Line

[Houston19514]

METRO and STV engineers have already said that they cannot put a rail junction at street level. It would kill the Richmond / Wheeler intersection. Also, nowhere in the United States do two actual light rail systems cross perpendiculalrly at grade. The operational issues involved are enormous.

Do you have a source for this alleged statement by METRO and STV engineers?

[The Great Hizzy!]

METRO and STV engineers have already said that they cannot put a rail junction at street level. It would kill the Richmond / Wheeler intersection. Also, nowhere in the United States do two actual light rail systems cross perpendiculalrly at grade. The operational issues involved are enormous.

Do you have a source for this alleged statement by METRO and STV engineers?

That might have been a potential issue downtown due to limit space (that is, more densely inhabited blocks), which is why they were considering a subway at the proposed Harrisburg and Main Street lines, but it is all too easy to build two cross-directional stations at grade level. The Wheeler Station is set up to accomodate just that.

[nmainguy]

I just returned from the board meeting so here is some of what I observed.

The setting:

The room was overflowing with anti-rail people handing out buttons to everyone in sight. One woman actually shoved one in my hand so I politely-with no comment-dropped it back in the bag of buttons she was carrying. She gave me a withering look and huffed off. Initially, it seemed like it was more a rally for anti-rail folks than a METRO board meeting.

The Meeting:

Frank Wilson, METRO President and CEO opened with a statement that ALL viewpoints would be considered and nothing would be taken off the table. There were 31 speakers starting with Martha Wong who basiclly parroted Culberson's letter [who didn't show]. When she finished the room erupted with applause. Wilson told the audience there would be no more of that-and later when another anti-rail speaker recieved applause, Wilson suggested if you need to applaud, take it outside. I would say there was an equal number of pro and anti speakers. The anti speakers basicly did their rant about This Is America and those Federal tax dollars are OURS [and Oregon's and Florida's etc...<my insert]and we voted to put this rail on Westpark and if you try to put it on Richmond, we have the power and the money to stop you. The majority of them were fairly inflexible. One man even brought his 10 or 11 year old son to the podium and insinuated if the rail went on Richmond, he would go out of buisness and his son would be left with nothing.

[i always have a problem with grown men dragging in their children to hide behind] All and all, if these are the people they have chosen to speak for the anti side, I think they'll need to develope some better "people skills".

On the pro side it was a much more measured response. No one threw out any ultimatums. A few expressed a preference for Richmond but agreed ALL options need to be studied. Our fellow HAIFer Christof Spieler was

eloquent and sane; Tory Gaddis http://houstonstrategies.blogspot.com/ spoke last and best-offering REAL solutions to offset the hardship to buisness owners during construction. All in all, a good meeting.

On a personal note, as I stepped off the platform to cross Main a HUGE white bus turned left onto Main from Calhoun, bounced over the buttons separating the tracks from the street and PARKED in the only lane on S. bound Main where a group of about 75 anti-railers leisurly disembarked. You heard me right-they didn't park under the bus shed on Travis. They didn't park on Pierce. They BLOCKED Main street. I found this very telling.

I don't know if any of you guys were there because quite frankly we are all invisible to one another but I could feel your spirit and I could feel your LOVE [I wish I knew how....oh never mind.]

PS:I was the guy in a blue longsleeve shirt with my red MFA sticker still on the chest]

[bachanon]

many thanks to nmainguy and christof spieler for taking of your time to be voices of reason. i appreciate your activism and wish i were more like you.

[VicMan]

I want all of the names and e-mails of the businesses who spoke against. I want them to know my side of the view.

[nmainguy]

I want all of the names and e-mails of the businesses who spoke against. I want them to know my side of the view.

Vic:

I can give you names but not emails as they were not on the list.

State Rep. Martha Wong is the only one I know you could contact. Some of the anti's on the list did not show but sent surrogates instead therefore their names were not on the list. Maybe METRO could supply the info as they spoke on the tax-payer's dime.

If you want my first-hand opinion, any emails to the vast majority who were anti-rail would have no effect on them as they appear to be dug in to their position. I understand, however that it might make people like you and myself feel better to at least vent. I would suggest that any emails be sent to both sides-just to keep things on the up and up.

I'll post the info I have when I get a chance. Give me a day or so, OK?.

And as for you, bachanon...you may not want to be JUST like me-and vise versa but in any event: X 3

[VicMan]

Vic:

I can give you names but not emails as they were not on the list.

I still would like to have the names

And I e-mailed Miss Wong.

[bachanon]

would it help to write metro in support of a richmond line? who would be a good contact at metro?

[Jeebus]

The anti speakers basicly did their rant about This Is America and those Federal tax dollars are OURS [and Oregon's and Florida's etc...<my insert]and we voted to put this rail on Westpark and if you try to put it on Richmond, we have the power and the money to stop you. The majority of them were fairly inflexible. One man even brought his 10 or 11 year old son to the podium and insinuated if the rail went on Richmond, he would go out of buisness and his son would be left with nothing.

How's that old saying go? Oh yeah: "You have to break a few eggs if you want to make an omelette." Anti-rail protesters are going to be the eggs in our "light-rail omelette".

Oh well, at least I'll get an omelette out of it all.

[Saddleman]

I think letters/emails need to be sent to the Chronicle, the Press, and any other Houston paper or magazine that might publish them.

[RedScare]

Nmain and Christof:

Thank you so much for speaking up for those of us that could not make it. As it were, I was at the other end of Downtown arguing a trial (got a hung jury...that's a victory for a defense lawyer ). I promise that next time the anti-railers come to town, I'll be there to wow them with common sense.

Thanks again.

BTW, did anyone make a sensible argument that we should rebut in our letters to the editor? "My taxes" arguments need no rebuttal. They pay no more than we do, and METRO knows it.

[Christof Spieler]

Our fellow HAIFer Christof Spieler was eloquent and sane

I hope I was brief, too; that was a LONG meeting.

Would it help to write metro in support of a richmond line? who would be a good contact at metro?

I don't see any sign that the METRO board is about to drop Richmond. They heard loud and clear that there are lots of people who want them to study all the options.

• Talking to businesses isn't a bad idea.
  
• Letters to the Chronicle are always useful.
  
• If anybody lives near the line, you should get involved in your civic group's discussions. The anti-Richmond folks are trying to show that they represent all of Richmond by getting the local neighborhood groups on board.
  
• Writing your city council member is probably a good step -- they have the ability to have a lot of influence in the process, and they've been hearing a lot from anti-rail people.
  
• If any of you are represented by Martha Wong or John Culberson, write them.
  
• Keep paying attention to this issue -- this isn't over yet, and there are a lot of very passionate people trying to block rail on Richmond.
  

[GovernorAggie]

I think that Richmond would be the best option, but let's think about what can be done with Westpark if that's where the line ends up going. I'm not as familiar with Westpark, but the only thing I can think of is the Centerpoint field that runs along it.

In the world of zoning, Westpark would be digestable because you could just rezone several areas along it in a more transit-friendly zoning category. The Centerpoint field may present some limitations...the more I think about it, the better Richmond looks.

I think in the end, Richmond will be the route. I just hate that Culberson and Wong are getting involved like they are. Isn't this close to election season??

[bachanon]

In the world of zoning, Westpark would be digestable because you could just rezone several areas along it in a more transit-friendly zoning category. The Centerpoint field may present some limitations...the more I think about it, the better Richmond looks.

zoning? what's that?

[ssullivan]

Thanks nmainguy and Christof for the report on the meeting yesterday. Sounds like it was rather chaotic to say the least.

I really hope Metro is able to overcome the opposition and pick the route that is the best for the city's long-term future. Three or four years of inconvenience on the part of a very small number of Houston's millions of residents if it benefits the entire city in the long run is worth it in my opinion. If it costs more so that these people are fairly compensated for their troubles, that's fine. I think Westpark makes a fine route for the line farther out -- I could see a Westpark/Alief Clodine routing in the old railroad ROW from the Hillcroft Transit Center west out past the Gessner and Westchase Park and Rides to the Mission Bend Park and Ride. That would make a fine extension of the University line to serve commuters in west and southwest Houston. But from the Uptown area east to Wheeler Station this route really needs to hit the major employment, residential and shopping areas, and that requires a routing not on Westpark. Yes, there are some businesses between Main and Kirby on Richmond that will be affected. The street is pretty narrow there. But there's also quite a lot of urban blight in that area too. There are only a few stretches where there are buildings right up against the street that might have to be totally demolished. In many cases there are large parking lots that could be slightly reduced in size to accommodate four lanes of traffic on Richmond plus the rail line and sidewalks. The majority of the businesses in this area rarely, if ever, need all of the parking they have now. Maybe the funding estimates for the project need to include the cost of not only acquiring the necessary property for the line, but also to assist business owners who wish to relocate off Richmond before the project starts.

I'm glad that Metro has publicly stated that they are going to study all possible routings, and that the vocal opposition at this point will not stop the study process from happening. I really like this statement at the end of their press release on this issue:

The bottom line is that because there is no hard data on the pros and cons of either Richmond or Westpark, both streets should be included in the study process. No party, no matter how vocal, should be allowed to force an outcome at this early stage in the process that trumps the legitimate interests of other segments of our community.

I just hope that they can continue the planning process without it being thrown off track before all the facts are in.

[new major on the block]

We're trying to build a system to handle Houston's transportation needs for the next 20-50-75-100 years. If it gets us to the best system for the long term, the pain endured during construction will be worth it, and it would be foolish in the extreme to decline to build the best system because we can't handle a couple years of construction.

Yes Houston is in dire straits of a transportation system. One that includes the metro area. But as far as building a system to handle the needs for 2026 to even 2126 than we definitely tripped out of the gate. Metro and TxDot are terrible at what they do. But they aren't the only ones to blame, the politicians, both parties, and finally Houstonians. That is right, our selves. We all "broke the dam". We want to have our cake and eat it too. We want a reliable transportation system but we dont want to pay for it. I am very suprised that the mayor hasn't requested FEMA to help pay for the rail expansion because of the influx of evacuees in the city and how it is hurting our traffic. And the number of people that live in the city but don't carpool, walk, or take the bus. Along with the ongoing debate of the ever widening freeways that probably won't last long because they will need to be expanded again. The many streets neglected. Does anyone ever wonder if METRO and for that matter TxDot in bed with both the automotive and oil industry. They all meet in a secret bunker underground and discuss how they are going to screw the taxpayers over for the next 20 years. A little electric train that takes up a lane of traffic that averages 35mph and stops every 20ft for 30 seconds that is then held up by red lights also. Along with the frequent occurance of running over people and hitting cars(clearly the faults of the the pedestrians, drivers, and yo-yos who planned the route) is not going to cut it. It only services a select group of citizens. What about the 3 million + that live outside the city limits, and drive 20-40 miles to work, burning gas, clogging freeways. And we are actually arguing about which road the little trolly will take to get to the mall??*%#* That is exactly why this transportation system will and forever fail. We are not Dallas nor Los Angeles. We are the most unique in terms or our city and or our situation. The largest major city in the country in terms of square miles(540),fourth in population, no zoning, and no clue on a transportation solution. The direction this is going the government will find WMD's in Iraq and the middle east will have alreadysubmitted to democracy.. oh and the cubs would have already won the world series before it is solved. Change starts at the bottom.

[Houston19514]

Yes Houston is in dire straits of a transportation system. One that includes the metro area. But as far as building a system to handle the needs for 2026 to even 2126 than we definitely tripped out of the gate. Metro and TxDot are terrible at what they do. But they aren't the only ones to blame, the politicians, both parties, and finally Houstonians. That is right, our selves. We all "broke the dam". We want to have our cake and eat it too. We want a reliable transportation system but we dont want to pay for it. I am very suprised that the mayor hasn't requested FEMA to help pay for the rail expansion because of the influx of evacuees in the city and how it is hurting our traffic. And the number of people that live in the city but don't carpool, walk, or take the bus. Along with the ongoing debate of the ever widening freeways that probably won't last long because they will need to be expanded again. The many streets neglected. Does anyone ever wonder if METRO and for that matter TxDot in bed with both the automotive and oil industry. They all meet in a secret bunker underground and discuss how they are going to screw the taxpayers over for the next 20 years. A little electric train that takes up a lane of traffic that averages 35mph and stops every 20ft for 30 seconds that is then held up by red lights also. Along with the frequent occurance of running over people and hitting cars(clearly the faults of the the pedestrians, drivers, and yo-yos who planned the route) is not going to cut it. It only services a select group of citizens. What about the 3 million + that live outside the city limits, and drive 20-40 miles to work, burning gas, clogging freeways. And we are actually arguing about which road the little trolly will take to get to the mall??*%#* That is exactly why this transportation system will and forever fail. We are not Dallas nor Los Angeles. We are the most unique in terms or our city and or our situation. The largest major city in the country in terms of square miles(540),fourth in population, no zoning, and no clue on a transportation solution. The direction this is going the government will find WMD's in Iraq and the middle east will have alreadysubmitted to democracy.. oh and the cubs would have already won the world series before it is solved. Change starts at the bottom.

The "little electric train" is not the entire plan. Next time why not try looking at the Metro Solutions plan before boring us with a ranting paragraph with no point and seemingly no end. Metro Solutions (For your convenience, the plan includes commuter rail.) And, in case you hadn't noticed, Houston already has probably the most extensive and successful system of park and rides/express buses/HOV lanes in the world. No, they are not trains, but they are very effective and efficient mass transit.

(and FWIW, no, Houston is not Dallas or Los Angeles... neither of those cities has or had a starter rail line with anywhere near the ridership that Houston's "little electric train" has.

[ssullivan]

I just drove down Richmond from Montrose to 610 earlier this afternoon. West of Kirby, I really don't think Metro would have to acquire much, if any right of way. Maybe a small trip here and there, but the median through that area is wide enough to probably allow for the rail line to be built while still preserving the existing six lanes of traffic.

Also, Afton Oaks has tied orange ribbons around all the trees in the median of Richmond through the neighborhood, as well as many of the trees in the front yards of the houses on Richmond. They have signs up in many of the yards criticizing Metro. Several of the businesses between Afton Oaks and 610 have similar signs and banners as well.

[nmainguy]

Yes Houston is in dire straits of a transportation system. One that includes the metro area. But as far as building a system to handle the needs for 2026 to even 2126 than we definitely tripped out of the gate. Metro and TxDot are terrible at what they do. But they aren't the only ones to blame, the politicians, both parties, and finally Houstonians. That is right, our selves. We all "broke the dam". We want to have our cake and eat it too. We want a reliable transportation system but we dont want to pay for it. I am very suprised that the mayor hasn't requested FEMA to help pay for the rail expansion because of the influx of evacuees in the city and how it is hurting our traffic. And the number of people that live in the city but don't carpool, walk, or take the bus. Along with the ongoing debate of the ever widening freeways that probably won't last long because they will need to be expanded again. The many streets neglected. Does anyone ever wonder if METRO and for that matter TxDot in bed with both the automotive and oil industry. They all meet in a secret bunker underground and discuss how they are going to screw the taxpayers over for the next 20 years. A little electric train that takes up a lane of traffic that averages 35mph and stops every 20ft for 30 seconds that is then held up by red lights also. Along with the frequent occurance of running over people and hitting cars(clearly the faults of the the pedestrians, drivers, and yo-yos who planned the route) is not going to cut it. It only services a select group of citizens. What about the 3 million + that live outside the city limits, and drive 20-40 miles to work, burning gas, clogging freeways. And we are actually arguing about which road the little trolly will take to get to the mall??*%#* That is exactly why this transportation system will and forever fail. We are not Dallas nor Los Angeles. We are the most unique in terms or our city and or our situation. The largest major city in the country in terms of square miles(540),fourth in population, no zoning, and no clue on a transportation solution. The direction this is going the government will find WMD's in Iraq and the middle east will have alreadysubmitted to democracy.. oh and the cubs would have already won the world series before it is solved. Change starts at the bottom.

You will never be taken seriously if you offer no solutions.

You will never be taken seriously when you talk about an imaginary "trolly" that travels at 35 MPH and stops every 20'. [How is Metro handling all the whip-lash lawsuits?]

You will never be taken seriously when you talk about imaginary bunkers.

When you are ready to be taken seriously, come back.

[VicMan]

This should be easy to solve. Why not have the train switch between Westpark and Richmond at one or more points?

E.G. have the train make a turn towards Richmond right before it hits Afton Oaks. Then the train goes through Westpark past 610 and goes back to Richmond.

[Houston1stWordOnTheMoon]

This should be easy to solve. Why not have the train switch between Westpark and Richmond at one or more points?

E.G. have the train make a turn towards Richmond right before it hits Afton Oaks. Then the train goes through Westpark past 610 and goes back to Richmond.

I think that would really help drive up the cost. Take her down Richmond. Its already wide enough and familiar to most. Wouldnt require much disruption to the point of impossible unlike it would if it were to go down Westheimer.

[zaphod]

It really sucks how the monorail was never built

[VicMan]

I would like to see it for the most part down Richmond, BUT I could stand for a diversion just before the train hits the Afton Oaks subdivision. The train could go to Westpark and then go back to Richmond once it goes past 610

[GovernorAggie]

Maybe it's skepticism, but do any of you think that the Afton Oaks "save our trees" campaign may have some elements of "we don't want those (trainriding) people" involved in the mix? Then again, it may not be if there's currently a bus route down through Afton Oaks.

[VicMan]

The 25 bus line goes through Afton Oaks.

[nmainguy]

Maybe it's skepticism, but do any of you think that the Afton Oaks "save our trees" campaign may have some elements of "we don't want those (trainriding) people" involved in the mix? Then again, it may not be if there's currently a bus route down through Afton Oaks.

At Thursday's board meeting it appeared some are sincere and others are using the trees as a cover for their own anti-rail agenda. When the final route is announced, look for these faux "tree huggers" to find another excuse to kill the line.

I'm for saving the trees and turning north on Weslyan-but I would feel that way regardless of the trees.

[ssullivan]

Torchlight, the train only needs a minimal amount of property to make a 90 degree turn. Drive down to the intersection of North Braeswood and Fannin, or the North Braeswood and Greenbriar intersection. The traffic flow for autos is pretty much in the same configuration as it was before MetroRail was built at both intersections. A very small piece of property on one corner of each intersection is used for the train to make the turn. Adding a turn in the rail line at both of these intersections had no impact on existing businesses or buildings, nor did it adversely change the flow of automobile traffic. A Richmond to Weslayan turn would require a small piece of the current HISD property at that corner, but we're talking about only a small piece of the grass there. Same thing with the Weslayan/Westheimer intersection. A small piece of the northeast corner of the Central Market parking lot would be needed, but that's it. At most, Central Market might be losing a dozen parking spaces, if that many. I really don't see how this is a problem.

[dbigtex56]

Also, the larger the radius, the faster the vehicle can make the turn and the smaller the acceleration forces on the people inside the vehicle.

There's been a radical approach to this problem. Some high speed trains actually tilt to compensate for lateral forces on passengers. Currently this seems impractical at slower speeds, yet we're made some great strides in engineering. Cost effective, reliable technology could open up some alternatives in the proposed route.

I know that's asking for a lot, but a person can dream.

[ssullivan]

Actually, there's a small Shell gas station at the southwest corner of Westheimer and Weslayan. They'd probably have to take out the whole thing, huh? Still, it's good to know that the train can make those turns. The proposed Weslayan route is therefore a viable option, if only in theory.

I forgot about the Shell station. It would have to go.

Another thing to think about is interconnectivity and future extensions. METRO already has a Transit Center at Hillcroft and Westpark and will have another one at Westpark and S. Rice. There are also Park and Rides further down Westpark near Beltway 8 and Highway 6. If METRO is able to extend light rail beyond S. Rice at some point in the future (like after 2025), you want the current terminus of the line to be in a position to accommodate that. Outside of 610, the light rail line would probably serve more lower density areas than medium-to-high density areas. Therefore, the stations may be further apart and have more parking. METRO already has a ROW and existing transit facilities along Westpark, so it may be better than Richmond (or Westheimer) for any future extensions outside 610. Depending on how METRO designs the junction at Westpark and 610, trains may also eventually be able to go directly from Greenway Plaza to the Galleria (but bypass Afton Oaks) as well.

I agree, and have said before I really think a Westpark routing makes sense west of the Uptown area. That would allow the line to run at faster speeds and be more of a commuter service. If you look at a map you'll see the future transit center at Rice and Westpark, the Hillcroft Transit Center, and the existing park and rides at Gessner, Westchase, and Mission Bend line up in almost a perfect line along the former railroad right of way. An extension of the University line west in the former railroad right of way that Metro owns, with stops at the Hillcroft Transit Center and three park and rides, with maybe one or two additional stops in between those facilities, would allow for a very fast and efficient park and ride light rail service from Westchase, Alief, and the Mission Bend/West Oaks area to Uptown and Greenway Plaza. Downtown commuters could then continue downtown with a transfer at Wheeler. Commuters who live in town and work in West Houston and Westchase could use the line as well by taking it in the opposite direction, provided Metro links up the park and ride lots with some good local circulator bus routes through areas like Westchase.

I understand many of us are impatient for something tangible (like construction) to happen soon. However, it takes time for engineers and planners to determine what's best and do things right. These people have years of experience, but we just have to be patient and let the people who have the knowledge do their jobs.

Very good point, and I totally agree. The problem is that the vocal, well-funded anti-rail groups refuse to allow this to happen. Rather than trust Metro's engineers and planners to do their job, they are trying to gt Richmond out of play before the route studies even get underway.

[infinite_jim]

i really hope Houston & Metro can develop this project

i've been reading the cynicism on other blogs (http://www.bloghouston.net/forum/viewtopic.php?id=2634)

and to honest, as a young adult, I'm more inclined to vote with my feet than to live here after graduation and have to deal with the current transportation system.

Also I'd like to show my greatest appreciation to N.MainGuy and Christof Spieler for being the voices of reason in this hard spin zone.