METRORail University Line

[Slick Vik]

I can't think of any modern LRT system that didn't rebuild the roads in the process. Lanes will be shifted around, construction vehicles damage it, you could argue that it's METRO's duty to repair it.

 

I'm not sure either of that either, and/or if all transit authorities pay for road rebuilds. Also on fannin where the rail takes half the road but not in the middle, I'm not sure if Fannin was rebuilt because it's in pretty bad shape. Maybe in that case the road is only rebuilt if the rail is built in the middle?

[livincinco]

Regarding the road repair, this isn't a condition of rail being built, it's something that was added when the streetcar was running by politicians to make it difficult to continue running cost wise. This adds a tremendous strain to building any new light rail and as I said before if it's not necessary it shouldn't be done by the transit authority logically.

 

I think that you're greatly underestimating the complexity of installing rail in an existing roadbed.  Installing embedded track in a roadway requires construction about 2 1/2 feet under the surface of the track.  Additionally there's an impact zone (due to vibration) under the roadbed that requires the relocation of utilities even if they aren't directly under the railbed.  (The impact zone for two lanes of light rail is 45 feet).

 

Attached has good detail about the impact of light rail construction on subsurface infrastructure in section 3.2.3

 

https://www.hamilton.ca/NR/rdonlyres/A5E6E5F1-C6AD-4745-A733-166A3EDF079F/0/TechnologyAnalysis.pdf

[IronTiger]

If METRO had more participants like Katy, Sugar Land, Pasadena, Missouri City and Baytown. Then commuter rail could at least be a discussion or planned. DART has Dallas, Addison, Carrollton, Cockrell Hill, Farmers Branch, Garland, Glenn Heights, Highland Park, Irving, Richardson, Plano and University Park. Something is wrong here.

Yup, METRO does have a problem. The root of it is incompetence on the main level. The suburbs are reluctant to join since their tax contributing to METRO would likely be completely wasted. The other thing is that the reason why Dallas has a large and impressive list of suburbs is the city size. Dallas is about 385 square miles. Houston is about 627, about 50% larger than Dallas and still with room to expand. Dallas cannot: it's hemmed in by suburbs, which are serviced by that area. For Houston to reach out to the suburbs, it would have to be a much more extensive network. Even the railroads are not particularly well-equipped to be good commuter lines, and it's pretty obvious that street running won't work outside the Inner Loop unless you wanted commutes to be longer than taking the highway.

Much like how the elevated stations in the Red Line extension explored new boundaries in Houston light rail, extending the University Line all the way to the Outer Loop will "prove" that METRORail really has potential and not a rinky-dink inner city line.

[cloud713]

I think the Kirby and shepherd stops make more sense than three greenway stops. I'm not sure about the tier west stop either.

Also I recall a long time ago there were certain parts of the line where uptown and university ran together but I don't think that's the case anymore.

Also I think a key line would be down Washington from northwest transit center. That way you don't have to go to wheeler. This is especially important if/when 290 commuter rail gets built, direct connection to downtown.

i think the upper kirby stop is a good idea too. the shepherd stop could be lived without though. i dont see three greenway stops, only two? unless your counting the Weslayan stop as GW? i dont think the Weslayan or Cummins stop are really necessary. i would essentially have a stop at Hillcroft, Post Oak, Greenway, Upper Kirby, Montrose (maybe Yoakum)/Menil/St Thomas, and Wheeler. get rid of all the others. they just slow the trains down and dont serve major destinations.

yeah uptown line curved west out to Hillcroft, though this (old) map i just found shows a black like running from uptown along the university line east towards Wheeler?

i think a line down Memorial would be better. Washington could get a streetcar?

When we talk about "heavy rail", we talk about services like the Washington DC Metro and the like, correct? With heavy rail, you're forced to make entire grade separations--and either way, something would have to be done about the conjunction with the rail just east of Newcastle since it never (at least for its last years of existence) crossed at grade with the other rail, and either way, any new thing by METRO would go over or under.

The light rail-as-commuter train I think is the best way to do it in the Sunbelt cities unless the "farther away" city has pre-existing rail, much like there's connections to Denton and Fort Worth via DART. It could also push the limits of the light rail when there's less stops.

Part of what I think METRO needs to do is "use what they have". For going out to south Katy, the Westpark line seems fine, but if it were Cypress, a commuter rail may be more useful (side note: I think the Gold/Uptown line should extend to Brookhollow, not terminate at the transit center).

Yeah. I would extend the Uptown line up to Northwest Mall, where the Hempstead rail line crosses through, for a 290 rail station.

yeah light rail as commuter train hybrid i guess is a pretty good idea. especially if we can get new ones that go faster than ~65mph (speed demon here.. Heh) i was always put off by it since DART screwed it up/gets such crappy ridership numbers, but i dont think a lot of our routes need full on commuter trains running all the time. maybe a couple like Cypress, The Woodlands, and possibly Galveston (only due to the distance.. depending on if LRT or commuter is cheaper. if its commuter, just run the trains only a couple times a day out to Gal). For the LRT hybrid, just space the stops out at least every few miles, possibly up to 5 miles apart, outside the loop.

Westpark could go from hilcroft to china town/a p&r off beltway 8, then to highway 6, and finally 1464 or all the way to the grand parkway. I10 would link up with the Hempstead commuter line to hop over into downtown,and have stops at northwest TC, memorial city, beltway/city center, and then go back to stops every mile or two for to serve the Energy Corridor, before ending out at Mason or GP.

Those 2 lines I think would be easiest to implement since the ROW is already there (Westpark) or built to suit it (i10). Of course I would like to see the lines described to Cypress, The Woodlands (possibly with service to Conroe a couple times a day), Galveston, and also lines down 90a, and 288 someday.

I find it kind of ironic the 90a line will probably be the first to get built when the ridership predictions were fairly low if I'm not mistaken (like 6,000 people a day?), when they could probably build the Westpark line without much trouble and get higher ridership. I only mention Westpark because I'm sure there would be a big ordeal trying to convert money making toll lanes on i10 into LRT.

Edited March 19, 2014 by cloud713

[IronTiger]

yeah light rail as commuter train hybrid i guess is a pretty good idea. especially if we can get new ones that go faster than ~65mph. i was always put off by it since DART screwed it up/gets such crappy ridership numbers, but i dont think a lot of our routes need full on commuter trains running all the time. maybe a couple like Cypress, The Woodlands, and possibly Galveston (depending on if LRT or commuter is cheaper. if its commuter, just run the trains only a couple times a day out to Gal). if its LRT, just space the stops out at least every few miles, possibly up to 5 miles apart, outside the loop.

I didn't think that DART screwed it up at all. At least their Red Line (northeast to Plano) seemed to get pretty good numbers at non-peak hours. It's not crammed--I consider it a major problem if mass transit lines like rail are just as congested as the highway. I don't know of any other lines beyond that, though, so perhaps that line isn't the best indicator.

I also don't think as far out as Galveston is really effective as a commuter line unless we went with a full "greater Houston" type rail network as discussed earlier. For what it's worth, here are some rough calculations of distance from the city center (measured in miles). As you can see, Galveston is much farther away than other Houston area destinations.

Sugar Land - 20 (existing rails are problematic, that's "as the bird flies")

Baytown - 24 (existing rails may be problematic, so it would be much longer)

Cypress - 29 (Fairfield area, using existing rails)

The Woodlands - 30

Conroe - 40

Hempstead - 50

Galveston - 50

Beaumont - 83

College Station - 90 (despite being far away, it hits a number of other stops, and as time goes on, a connection will be more important)

Orange - 105

Conversely, Denton over in Dallas is 35 miles and requires one transfer to commuter rail. Corsicana is about 50 miles away, and no one is discussing commuter rail out that way (however, as recently as 1995, an Amtrak line hit Corsicana as the last stop before Dallas)

ADDITION TO TAKE INTO ACCOUNT YOUR LAST EDIT

I find it kind of ironic the 90a line will probably be the first to get built when the ridership predictions were fairly low if I'm not mistaken (like 6,000 people a day?), when they could probably build the Westpark line without much trouble and get higher ridership. I only mention Westpark because I'm sure there would be a big ordeal trying to convert money making toll lanes into LRT.

First off, as I mentioned previously, ridership predictions could be manipulated so if you get higher ones, it could be a "big success" and open the way for more funding (neat trick, huh?) whereas if you make it too high and it misses, then funding could dry up.

Also, there's still enough ROW along Westpark to not need to destroy the Westpark Tollway (which is on pretty narrow ROW as it is)

Edited March 19, 2014 by IronTiger

[Slick Vik]

i think the upper kirby stop is a good idea too. the shepherd stop could be lived without though. i dont see three greenway stops, only two? unless your counting the Weslayan stop as GW? i dont think the Weslayan or Cummins stop are really necessary. i would essentially have a stop at Hillcroft, Post Oak, Greenway, Upper Kirby, Montrose (maybe Yoakum)/Menil/St Thomas, and Wheeler. get rid of all the others. they just slow the trains down and dont serve major destinations.

yeah uptown line curved west out to Hillcroft, though this (old) map i just found shows a black like running from uptown along the university line east towards Wheeler?

i think a line down Memorial would be better. Washington could get a streetcar?

Yeah. I would extend the Uptown line up to Northwest Mall, where the Hempstead rail line crosses through, for a 290 rail station.

yeah light rail as commuter train hybrid i guess is a pretty good idea. especially if we can get new ones that go faster than ~65mph (speed demon here.. Heh) i was always put off by it since DART screwed it up/gets such crappy ridership numbers, but i dont think a lot of our routes need full on commuter trains running all the time. maybe a couple like Cypress, The Woodlands, and possibly Galveston (only due to the distance.. depending on if LRT or commuter is cheaper. if its commuter, just run the trains only a couple times a day out to Gal). For the LRT hybrid, just space the stops out at least every few miles, possibly up to 5 miles apart, outside the loop.

Westpark could go from hilcroft to china town/a p&r off beltway 8, then to highway 6, and finally 1464 or all the way to the grand parkway. I10 would link up with the Hempstead commuter line to hop over into downtown,and have stops at northwest TC, memorial city, beltway/city center, and then go back to stops every mile or two for to serve the Energy Corridor, before ending out at Mason or GP.

Those 2 lines I think would be easiest to implement since the ROW is already there (Westpark) or built to suit it (i10). Of course I would like to see the lines described to Cypress, The Woodlands (possibly with service to Conroe a couple times a day), Galveston, and also lines down 90a, and 288 someday.

I find it kind of ironic the 90a line will probably be the first to get built when the ridership predictions were fairly low if I'm not mistaken (like 6,000 people a day?), when they could probably build the Westpark line without much trouble and get higher ridership. I only mention Westpark because I'm sure there would be a big ordeal trying to convert money making toll lanes into LRT.

 

Yea Weslayen I'm not sure what the point of that stop is. I would pick Edloe or Cummins whichever has the best proximity to greenway plaza and keep that. I think Shepherd is an important stop. I'm not sure about Tierwester but low income stops will probably have a good ridership so I'm not against that. I would add another stop at Chimney Rock because it's in that Gulfton area which has huge low income density, or maybe at hillcroft on the south side of 59.

Edited March 19, 2014 by Slick Vik

[Slick Vik]

I didn't think that DART screwed it up at all. At least their Red Line (northeast to Plano) seemed to get pretty good numbers at non-peak hours. It's not crammed--I consider it a major problem if mass transit lines like rail are just as congested as the highway. I don't know of any other lines beyond that, though, so perhaps that line isn't the best indicator.

I also don't think as far out as Galveston is really effective as a commuter line unless we went with a full "greater Houston" type rail network as discussed earlier. For what it's worth, here are some rough calculations of distance from the city center (measured in miles). As you can see, Galveston is much farther away than other Houston area destinations.

Sugar Land - 20 (existing rails are problematic, that's "as the bird flies")

Baytown - 24 (existing rails may be problematic, so it would be much longer)

Cypress - 29 (Fairfield area, using existing rails)

The Woodlands - 30

Conroe - 40

Hempstead - 50

Galveston - 50

Beaumont - 83

College Station - 90 (despite being far away, it hits a number of other stops, and as time goes on, a connection will be more important)

Orange - 105

Conversely, Denton over in Dallas is 35 miles and requires one transfer to commuter rail. Corsicana is about 50 miles away, and no one is discussing commuter rail out that way (however, as recently as 1995, an Amtrak line hit Corsicana as the last stop before Dallas)

ADDITION TO TAKE INTO ACCOUNT YOUR LAST EDIT

First off, as I mentioned previously, ridership predictions could be manipulated so if you get higher ones, it could be a "big success" and open the way for more funding (neat trick, huh?) whereas if you make it too high and it misses, then funding could dry up.

Also, there's still enough ROW along Westpark to not need to destroy the Westpark Tollway (which is on pretty narrow ROW as it is)

 

I don't think DART screwed up either. The only thing I would add is an east-west line on 635, but that's out of the question. They are taking the reverse approach of houston, building lines out to the suburbs and now building streetcars in the city. Houston is building light rail in the city and commuter rail later.

[cloud713]

I didn't think that DART screwed it up at all. At least their Red Line (northeast to Plano) seemed to get pretty good numbers at non-peak hours. It's not crammed--I consider it a major problem if mass transit lines like rail are just as congested as the highway. I don't know of any other lines beyond that, though, so perhaps that line isn't the best indicator.

I also don't think as far out as Galveston is really effective as a commuter line unless we went with a full "greater Houston" type rail network as discussed earlier. For what it's worth, here are some rough calculations of distance from the city center (measured in miles). As you can see, Galveston is much farther away than other Houston area destinations.

Sugar Land - 20 (existing rails are problematic, that's "as the bird flies")

Baytown - 24 (existing rails may be problematic, so it would be much longer)

Cypress - 29 (Fairfield area, using existing rails)

The Woodlands - 30

Conroe - 40

Hempstead - 50

Galveston - 50

Beaumont - 83

College Station - 90 (despite being far away, it hits a number of other stops, and as time goes on, a connection will be more important)

Orange - 105

Conversely, Denton over in Dallas is 35 miles and requires one transfer to commuter rail. Corsicana is about 50 miles away, and no one is discussing commuter rail out that way (however, as recently as 1995, an Amtrak line hit Corsicana as the last stop before Dallas)

ADDITION TO TAKE INTO ACCOUNT YOUR LAST EDIT

First off, as I mentioned previously, ridership predictions could be manipulated so if you get higher ones, it could be a "big success" and open the way for more funding (neat trick, huh?) whereas if you make it too high and it misses, then funding could dry up.

Also, there's still enough ROW along Westpark to not need to destroy the Westpark Tollway (which is on pretty narrow ROW as it is)

For what it's worth, I think the DART red line is their most popular/highest ridership, just like our red line. I just don't think moving 100,000 people with 85 miles of track is very efficient given that Houston managed to move around 40,000 people with just 8 miles of track. (I realize our short line hit many of the popular destinations in the city, but still. I would think with our 5 lines built out (I think it's a little over 40 miles) that our system would have ridership near that of DART. Or at least a lot better percentage of boardings per mile than they do.

Yeah Galveston is definitely the furthest place out that I would consider rail to, that's why I questioned wether it should be commuter rail service just a few times a day or LRT service more often.

True, good point.

Whoops.. I corrected my post. I meant i10 when I was referring to replacing money generating toll lanes with rail. Agreed Westpark could fit it, which is why I think that's such a great route.

[Slick Vik]

Dart really needs something that goes east west. Right now it's mostly north south.

[IronTiger]

Whoops.. I corrected my post. I meant i10 when I was referring to replacing money generating toll lanes with rail. Agreed Westpark could fit it, which is why I think that's such a great route.

As mentioned before, unless you didn't want to build stations on the Interstate 10 route between Northwest Transit Center and Katy Mills, adding stations would be a huge engineering feat to build stations that get people safely over the freeway and the two tracks to in between. I could see a Gessner station that would require not a lot of work to retrofit (and there's empty space for parking too) but "not a lot of work" is a relative term.

I feel that in the case of rail and Interstate 10 is that TxDOT really didn't have rail in mind for the freeway but METRO insisted that it could have the potential and coughed up some money to make the bridges stronger for potential rail.

[livincinco]

Dart really needs something that goes east west. Right now it's mostly north south.

 

DART really just needs riders.  Always seems like the next line is going to be the one that delivers them.

 

DART had a ridership of 11.51 million annually in 2001 with a 20 mile network.  (575,000 annual riders/mile).  In 2011, they had an annual ridership of 22.3 million on a 72 mile network.  (310,000 annual riders/mile).  The population of the Dallas metro increased by 23.4% during that time period.

 

https://www.dart.org/news/dartrailhistory.asp

 

I expect the same thing to happen in Houston.  The lines that are currently under construction will reduce the riders/mile on average and proponents will continue to say that the next line will add the riders.

 

[cloud713]

Dart really needs something that goes east west. Right now it's mostly north south.

true, something along 635 from 75/the red line, west to PGBT, turning south down PGBT to the LRT line running towards DFW, ending at the Belt Line Station (Orange Line?) would be great. it would also connect into the line going up i35 towards Denton (Green line?). most of DFWs population is to the north, so an east/west connector on the north side would be ideal to prevent people from having to take unnecessary trips into downtown when they are trying to get somewhere to the east or west.

here is a comparison of the map METRO is trying to build, and some future map that i dont think they are trying to fully accomplish anymore(?)..

i dont understand the line paralleling the Red line to the east, going down into old Pearland. i would of put the line down the middle of 288, but i guess at the time there were more people along the corridor they selected, and 288/new Pearland wasnt exploding with population growth as much. i would scrap that southern spur/branch off the southeast line, and jump the red line over on Belfort, for a southern extension down 288 through Pearland and possibly all the way to the P&R at Highway 6 (though thats outside of Harris County, so another agency would have to take that portion over i guess?)

Edited March 19, 2014 by cloud713

[Slick Vik]

DART really just needs riders.  Always seems like the next line is going to be the one that delivers them.

 

DART had a ridership of 11.51 million annually in 2001 with a 20 mile network.  (575,000 annual riders/mile).  In 2011, they had an annual ridership of 22.3 million on a 72 mile network.  (310,000 annual riders/mile).  The population of the Dallas metro increased by 23.4% during that time period.

 

https://www.dart.org/news/dartrailhistory.asp

 

I expect the same thing to happen in Houston.  The lines that are currently under construction will reduce the riders/mile on average and proponents will continue to say that the next line will add the riders.

 

You think the University Line and Uptown Lines would reduce riders/mile?

 

Also if you know Dallas you know that the east west commute on 635 is packed. If you put transit on the corridors where it is needed, people will ride. Exhibit A: Canada Line of Vancouver Skytrain. It decimated ridership expectations.

[nativehoustonion]

No it will increase due the density inside the loop.  Everybody I talk to would ride it due to the traffic.  It is so bad I walk to HEB off Alabama from my house in off Revere and get there in 10 minutes, while cars are sitting in traffic.  We just need more options which light rail would work. 

[IronTiger]

Ridership per mile is a bad statistic since the longer the route is, the worse the numbers seem. For example, overseas flights would be a total failure if you went by those numbers. HSR, Amtrak, Greyhound, everything would look terrible.

[totheskies]

You think the University Line and Uptown Lines would reduce riders/mile?

 

Also if you know Dallas you know that the east west commute on 635 is packed. If you put transit on the corridors where it is needed, people will ride. Exhibit A: Canada Line of Vancouver Skytrain. It decimated ridership expectations.

 

At least Dallas isn't afraid to invest in it's lines.  But I agree... now that the lines are built out through Downtown, they need to do a Circular Line (or if you're being very Dallasite, a BELT line) to provide some east-west coverage.  Plenty of commuters in the Metroplex never need to dip into Downtown. Doing that would attract lots more users to the system. 

 

Edited March 19, 2014 by totheskies

[Slick Vik]

At least Dallas isn't afraid to invest in it's lines.  But I agree... now that the lines are built out through Downtown, they need to do a Circular Line (or if you're being very Dallasite, a BELT line) to provide some east-west coverage.  Plenty of commuters in the Metroplex never need to dip into Downtown. 

 

 

A lot of Dallas's funds came because Houston rejected its funds, irony.

 

I think the TEX rail / Cotton Belt Line is supposed to go from Fort Worth to Richardson via Plano, but right now only the Fort Worth to DFW portion is being built. That would help a lot if completely built.

[nativehoustonion]

I took the wonderful DART from Downtown to Richardson.  I waited 45 minutes for that yellow train, then another 30 minutes to get there.  Not impressed. 

[cloud713]

I think the TEX rail / Cotton Belt Line is supposed to go from Fort Worth to Richardson via Plano, but right now only the Fort Worth to DFW portion is being built. That would help a lot if completely built.

 

i dont think any of the Cotton Belt Line is under construction..? pretty sure that one is in a political mess too.

 

As mentioned before, unless you didn't want to build stations on the Interstate 10 route between Northwest Transit Center and Katy Mills, adding stations would be a huge engineering feat to build stations that get people safely over the freeway and the two tracks to in between. I could see a Gessner station that would require not a lot of work to retrofit (and there's empty space for parking too) but "not a lot of work" is a relative term.

I feel that in the case of rail and Interstate 10 is that TxDOT really didn't have rail in mind for the freeway but METRO insisted that it could have the potential and coughed up some money to make the bridges stronger for potential rail.

yeah. i would either have the stations at existing Park and Rides, enclosing the old vehicle ramp from the P&R onto the HOV lane, and adding moving sidewalks down it to move the people from the station at the elevated portion over the highway, down to the pick up & drop off/P&R/rental car/B-Cycle areas off on one side of the roadway.

or like you mentioned earlier, cut a hole in the overpass (which i dont think would be too tricky, minus maybe relocating one of the reinforcement beams or something), and have an escalator and elevator to bring people down to the street/ground level under the highway.

[Naviguessor]

NativeHouston,

I Didn't realize that DART had a first class car.

 

;-)

[Slick Vik]

i dont think any of the Cotton Belt Line is under construction..? pretty sure that one is in a political mess too.

yeah. i would either have the stations at existing Park and Rides, enclosing the old vehicle ramp from the P&R onto the HOV lane, and adding moving sidewalks down it to move the people from the station at the elevated portion over the highway, down to the pick up & drop off/P&R/rental car/B-Cycle areas off on one side of the roadway.

or like you mentioned earlier, cut a hole in the overpass (which i dont think would be too tricky, minus maybe relocating one of the reinforcement beams or something), and have an escalator and elevator to bring people down to the street/ground level under the highway.

The portion from Fort Worth to DFW is being built now.

[Slick Vik]

There's a conspiracy theory that I believe that COH is going out of its way to not make any effort to rebuild Richmond as punishment for culberson blocking rail.

[IronTiger]

At least Dallas isn't afraid to invest in it's lines. But I agree... now that the lines are built out through Downtown, they need to do a Circular Line (or if you're being very Dallasite, a BELT line) to provide some east-west coverage. Plenty of commuters in the Metroplex never need to dip into Downtown. Doing that would attract lots more users to the system.

Rail just isn't for everyone, and trying to make it for everyone would be horrendously expensive and get diminishing returns (and you thought that building more miles out was diminishing returns).

I think the TEX rail / Cotton Belt Line is supposed to go from Fort Worth to Richardson via Plano, but right now only the Fort Worth to DFW portion is being built. That would help a lot if completely built.

I don't know, I'm suspicious of the whole oft-repeated "Well, once this line is built, ridership will TAKE OFF!" The ridership on the system total increases, but probably not to the astronomical projections that people make. It's a bit like the latest version of Windows--it may or may not fix the previous one's problems, but also has a bunch of problems on its own.

There's a conspiracy theory that I believe that COH is going out of its way to not make any effort to rebuild Richmond as punishment for culberson blocking rail.

Houston roads are pretty abysmal and when repairs are done, they take a while to be done. Better take off the tinfoil hat.

I took the wonderful DART from Downtown to Richardson. I waited 45 minutes for that yellow train, then another 30 minutes to get there. Not impressed.

Well, considering that the Gold Line and Red Line run parallel to each other and the Red Line comes at far more frequent times, you just made a mistake (understandable) but that's not a reason to condemn the entire system.

[Slick Vik]

Rail just isn't for everyone, and trying to make it for everyone would be horrendously expensive and get diminishing returns (and you thought that building more miles out was diminishing returns).

I don't know, I'm suspicious of the whole oft-repeated "Well, once this line is built, ridership will TAKE OFF!" The ridership on the system total increases, but probably not to the astronomical projections that people make. It's a bit like the latest version of Windows--it may or may not fix the previous one's problems, but also has a bunch of problems on its own.

Houston roads are pretty abysmal and when repairs are done, they take a while to be done. Better take off the tinfoil hat.

Well, considering that the Gold Line and Red Line run parallel to each other and the Red Line comes at far more frequent times, you just made a mistake (understandable) but that's not a reason to condemn the entire system.

If the line is built in a corridor where there is pent up demand it will get good ridership.

I don't think the conspiracy I laid out is that impossible it would make sense.

[cloud713]

If the line is built in a corridor where there is pent up demand it will get good ridership.

I don't think the conspiracy I laid out is that impossible it would make sense.

i agree..

and yeah, a north side 635 E/W line would be prime for DART.. it would be like if Houston had a commuter rail layout with lines running NW down Hempstead, West down Westpark, and Southwest down 90A, in order to transfer from Sugar Land to the northwest or the Galleria/uptown, you would have to ride the train all the way into the city (an additional 5 miles or so each way, plus transfers/wait time, and possible trips up/down the Red line [sugar Land would have to take the Red Line up to Wheeler in order to catch a train west, or to UH-D/Post Office or the Hardy Yards to catch a train to the northwest.. whereas if there was a commuter rail route up/down the north/south rail line just east of 610, you could catch a train that could turn onto that west side connector (or transfer at a station at the West Side N/S line intersection), and take you into the two other west side commuter rail lines, saving you over 10 miles of track on commuter rail, and an additional amount of time you would spend transfering over to the other commuter rail routes from the light rail network. 

its the same idea as the 635 line (even down to it connecting 3 separate rail lines), just turning the northern oriented DFW/DART system on its left side for a western oriented version for the Houston metro.

IMO the West Side Connector idea is genius if we ever build out a commuter or LRT-hybrid system that reaches out to the burbs. its where the people are, and would save a hell of a lot of time for people trying to get from the southern/central/northern portion of the west side to another area on the west side. i suppose an alternative to the West Side Connector (if NIMBYs like Afton Oaks [go figure this plan would go through AO just like the original U Line.. ugh] put up a fight against more rail [i say more because rail already runs right along the corridor i proposed, so that argument should seem baseless] coming through their neighborhoods) would be extending the Uptown line down 610 to S Post Oak to 90A, though it would be much slower having to traverse all the stops on the uptown line, vs just 3 stops on the West Side Connector, 90 A, Westpark, and Hempstead.

Edited March 20, 2014 by cloud713

[cloud713]

I think given the current circumstances with Culberson blocking anything on Richmond west of Shepherd, jumping the line over to Westpark by means of Yoakum is the best bet. the street (Yoakum) is plenty wide enough with a median perfect to run light rail down the middle of, and it would cross over the trenched part of 59 so you wouldnt have to worry about elevating the rail really high above the freeway/looking unsightly like you likely would further west at Shepherd. and none of the other streets really have room for LRT to cross over to Westpark on, especially any of the streets with the existing arch bridges.. just build a new matching arch bridge at Yoakum for the rail and it would blend in perfectly..

i would only have an elevated station at Kirby, and preferably a trenched station at Edloe/Greenway, connecting under 59 into the Greenway tunnel system (finally found some sketches of the tunnel system online), or elevated, if they decide tunneling under 59 is too complicated, with an enclosed skybridge across 59 to Greenway, and then a new stop at either Post Oak, or the planned Gulfton stop, before hitting Hilcroft TC and potentially going on to the suburbs, with stations even further spread apart (probably at new P&Rs on the major roads like Beltway, Highway 6, and G.P.). 

between Hilcroft and Wheeler there would be 4 stops. compared to the planned ELEVEN stops in between Hilcroft TC and Wheeler Station. not only will the trains be able to travel at a higher speed in their own ROW along Westpark (especially if there are a couple overpasses and/or an underpass), and not have to stop nearly as much, while still serving 4 of the major destinations along the route. the travel time would probably be cut in half, maybe more? do we really want to sit through 12 stops getting from uptown to downtown, or do you want to only have to sit through 6? i get that more stations mean potentially higher ridership, but are that many riders going to be utilizing stops at NewCastle, Weslayan, Cummins (or "Greenway".. only one Greenway stop is necessary), Eastside, Shepherd (south of 59.. if it was north of 59 on Richmond i might could see the need for the stop, but it wont be) or Dunlavy..? i dont think we need to burden our east west connector with over a dozen stations.. especially if we arent going to be building an east-west express/commuter route any time in the foreseeable future. if and when we get a commuter/express route (probably the Hempstead line from the Uptown LRT extension to Northwest Mall, east, over to thePost Office/UH-D or the Hardy yards to connect into the main st line in/near downtown), then we can add more stations along the University Line where they seem fit. but i (along with others) seem to think the University Line will be the most crucial link in our system, once the other lines are built out, as ridership on the uptown line is sure to be very high, and many people will want to travel between uptown/theGalleria/the west side and downtown/the museum district/TMC/Reliant Stadium/ect. like Iron Tiger was getting at.. if we want to have a world class transit system, its not going to happen by building rail down the middle of insanely busy surface streets.. 

[livincinco]

Ridership per mile is a bad statistic since the longer the route is, the worse the numbers seem. For example, overseas flights would be a total failure if you went by those numbers. HSR, Amtrak, Greyhound, everything would look terrible.

I don't think that an overseas flight is a fair comparison because that has one point of embarkation and one destination. Rail has stops at each location en route and has a (more or less) the same cost per mile. The point is that Dallas has experienced diminishing returns as they've built out their network. Despite claims that an extensive network would increase ridership, but the original lines have decreased in ridership and overall increases have not been impressive in comparison to the investment. The standard response is a perpetual "when x line is built ridership will increase".

There are lessons there for Houston, because the same rationale is being used. The University line will certainly draw more ridership than the lines currently under construction, but I question whether it will draw more or the same as the Main Street line proportionate to the cost. I also think that the gains to the overall network are overstated because of the overall transit time traveling across the network. I'm estimating that Downtown to The Galleria would be over an hour when done by light rail. I don't think that's going to be as appealing as many seem to think.

[IronTiger]

I also think that the gains to the overall network are overstated because of the overall transit time traveling across the network. I'm estimating that Downtown to The Galleria would be over an hour when done by light rail. I don't think that's going to be as appealing as many seem to think.

And now we're back to the original focus of the thread--even from Wheeler to the Galleria will be a significant drain on time with all those stops (never mind that you'd have to make a transfer, which slows even more), and unless you had no other options, you'd want to just take 59.

[Slick Vik]

I don't think that an overseas flight is a fair comparison because that has one point of embarkation and one destination. Rail has stops at each location en route and has a (more or less) the same cost per mile. The point is that Dallas has experienced diminishing returns as they've built out their network. Despite claims that an extensive network would increase ridership, but the original lines have decreased in ridership and overall increases have not been impressive in comparison to the investment. The standard response is a perpetual "when x line is built ridership will increase".

There are lessons there for Houston, because the same rationale is being used. The University line will certainly draw more ridership than the lines currently under construction, but I question whether it will draw more or the same as the Main Street line proportionate to the cost. I also think that the gains to the overall network are overstated because of the overall transit time traveling across the network. I'm estimating that Downtown to The Galleria would be over an hour when done by light rail. I don't think that's going to be as appealing as many seem to think.

 

Dallas is not an extensive network because it has no east west, it's all north south. Again as I've stated before, if it's built in the corridors where there is heavy demand, it will be successful. Dallas for the most part took shortcuts and used abandoned right of way. Now it's trying to work backwards by building streetcars in the city to give people ways to get around once they get in. Once the cotton belt line is fully built we'll see how good the system works as a whole but I would still prefer a 635 line, but that will never happen.

[cloud713]

And now we're back to the original focus of the thread--even from Wheeler to the Galleria will be a significant drain on time with all those stops (never mind that you'd have to make a transfer, which slows even more), and unless you had no other options, you'd want to just take 59.

this.. do we want a slow University Line with ELEVEN stations between Hilcroft and Wheeler, that runs on surface streets, or a University Line with 4 stations between Hilcroft and Wheeler that runs in its own designated ROW with fewer street crossings (and the possibility of building overpasses or underpasses on the few busy cross streets along Westpark, like Kirby, Buffalo Speedway, and Edloe)..

if were not going to have an east-west commuter/express route anytime soon then this needs to be our express route, with minimal stops for quicker travel time. when we build another east/west express route then we can come back and add stations to the university line. for now though if we want that "world class system", the Richmond route with 13 stops is not the way to do it.