METRORail University Line

[shasta]

I think what Trae means is that in the long run, Dallas will be better of because they actually planned for the future. In the future ridership should increase in Dallas. You can see this will all of the developments that have went up and are going up around DART. Houston has decided to build its rail in areas that are already developed (although for the most part suburban). METRO opened the light rail in 2004 and there have been very little TOD along the line, complete opposite of Dallas' DART.

Very little TOD development along the light Main Street Line?!?! Are you sure you want to say that? I would imagine there have been a billion dollars PLUS of new projects along the Main Street measured from a 1/4 mile of the line. MainPlace, Houston Pavilions, One Park Place, Discovery Green, Hess Tower (I haven't even left downtown yet) . New apartments in midtown, museum district, reliant area.....etc.

Give it a little time to come together but there has been ton of activity in ONLY 8 years.

[citykid09]

Very little TOD development along the light Main Street Line?!?! Are you sure you want to say that? I would imagine there have been a billion dollars PLUS of new projects along the Main Street measured from a 1/4 mile of the line. MainPlace, Houston Pavilions, One Park Place, Discovery Green, Hess Tower (I haven't even left downtown yet) . New apartments in midtown, museum district, reliant area.....etc.

Give it a little time to come together but there has been ton of activity in ONLY 8 years.

You mention all of that, but I still don't think its much. We are all entitled to our own opinions. This may be a little off topic but think about this: How is it Houston is the most booming city in North America at this time, but prety much the only development that comes from this is a bunch of 4-5 story apartment buildings? Then you look at the many skyscrapers being constructed in Chicago, Miami, Toronto, New York, etc and wonder why not Houston? Its the city that is booming not those other cities (as much). I guess Houston had its one and only chance in the 1970s.

[LarryDierker]

You mention all of that, but I still don't think its much. We are all entitled to our own opinions. This may be a little off topic but think about this: How is it Houston is the most booming city in North America at this time, but prety much the only development that comes from this is a bunch of 4-5 story apartment buildings? Then you look at the many skyscrapers being constructed in Chicago, Miami, Toronto, New York, etc and wonder why not Houston? Its the city that is booming not those other cities (as much). I guess Houston had its one and only chance in the 1970s.

Houston is passing on downtown skyscrapers and opting for bland and boring suburban office complexes and midrises that are a shorter commute for Katy and Woodlands residents that would rather have a "yard" and protest Aldi stores that might attract poor people than to have urban amenities that 'self important hipsters' like myself prefer.

[citykid09]

Houston is passing on downtown skyscrapers and opting for bland and boring suburban office complexes and midrises that are a shorter commute for Katy and Woodlands residents that would rather have a "yard" and protest Aldi stores that might attract poor people than to have urban amenities that 'self important hipsters' like myself prefer.

Give them commuter rail and call it a day. Could you imaging how Houston would be if the city stopped within 610 and the suburbs stopded within beltway 8 (including the big airport in beltway 8). It would be much easier to get around and the city would be much more dense. Here is a suggestion Houston, if you can't take care of the land (streets, etc) that you have already, then stop annexing more land.

[woolie]

How is it Houston is the most booming city in North America at this time, but prety much the only development that comes from this is a bunch of 4-5 story apartment buildings?

This is a pretty easy question to answer. Houston already had lots of skyscrapers. It doesn't have lots of 4-6 story apartment blocks. Travel to other cities, and outside the US. Houston is building density, and the rail system is right on schedule.

[SkylineView]

But CK09, now you've missed the point entirely. The beauty of Houston is a high quality of living at a relatively now price. The reason that the restaurant and retail scenes are so strong here is due to high disposable income afforded by low housing costs and a robust job sector. Cramming more into a smaller space would require more mass transit to support the increase in density, but this won't be accomplished without raising the cost of living. Vancouver (Canada) has tried this for decades with the enforced green belt around the city, and the end result has been some of the highest housing costs in the country. Trying to do it here belies economics and common sense in light of where we stand today.

[woolie]

Katy and Woodlands residents that would rather have a "yard" and protest Aldi stores that might attract poor people

In another discussion, I was wondering about the demographics of Cinco Ranch. Allow wikipedia to summarize.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cinco_Ranch,_Texas#Demographics

(CDP is census designated place)

Demographics

As of the census^[1] of 2000, there were 11,196 people, 3,375 households, and 3,064 families residing in the CDP. The population density was 2,270.0 people per square mile (876.8/km²). There were 3,594 housing units at an average density of 728.7/sq mi (281.5/km²). The racial makeup of the CDP was 87.92% White, 2.85% African American, 0.23% Native American, 6.63% Asian, 0.02% Pacific Islander, 1.06% from other races, and 1.30% from two or more races. Hispanic or Latino of any race were 5.84% of the population.

14% of Cinco Ranch residents report German ancestry, another 14% report English ancestry, and 10% report Irish. These are the three most common reported ancestries. Fourth is Asian, at 7%.

There were 3,375 households out of which 63.7% had children under the age of 18 living with them, 84.9% were married couples living together, 3.8% had a female householder with no husband present, and 9.2% were non-families. 7.5% of all households were made up of individuals and 1.2% had someone living alone who was 65 years of age or older. The average household size was 3.32 and the average family size was 3.52.

In the CDP the population was spread out with 38.3% under the age of 18, 3.8% from 18 to 24, 32.5% from 25 to 44, 22.2% from 45 to 64, and 3.2% who were 65 years of age or older. The median age was 35 years. For every 100 females there were 99.9 males. For every 100 females age 18 and over, there were 98.9 males.

The median income for a household in the CDP was $111,517, and the median income for a family was $114,550. Males had a median income of $90,117 versus $42,304 for females. The per capita income for the CDP was $37,747. About 1.5% of families and 1.3% of the population were below the poverty line, including 1.1% of those under age 18 and 2.6% of those age 65 or over.

Edited April 17, 2012 by woolie

[woolie]

Vancouver (Canada) has tried this for decades with the enforced green belt around the city, and the end result has been some of the highest housing costs in the country. Trying to do it here belies economics and common sense in light of where we stand today.

Vancouver, San Diego, SF, etc. also have massive amounts of natural beauty and amenities that probably make a smidgen of a difference in COL. Houston is for all intent and purposes a flat, featureless floodplain.

[citykid09]

Can you give us a list and maybe some pictures of all of the TOD developments that have gone up around DART? I am aware of Mockingbird Station...

Trae listed some of the TODs that have gone up because of DART, but I will mention another that just started construction. This TOD will have 10,000 housing units when it is complete.

Massive 10,000 unit residential project underway at North Lake in Dallas

http://www.dallasnews.com/business/commercial-real-estate/headlines/20120412-billingsley-starts-work-on-ambitious-dallas-rental-development.ece?ssimg=537728#ssStory537729

[woolie]

Trae listed some of the TODs that have gone up because of DART, but I will mention another that just started construction. This TOD will have 10,000 housing units when it is complete.

Massive 10,000 unit residential project underway at North Lake in Dallas

http://www.dallasnews.com/business/commercial-real-estate/headlines/20120412-billingsley-starts-work-on-ambitious-dallas-rental-development.ece?ssimg=537728#ssStory537729

Gonna have to call bullshit on that one. I don't know how many people will want to live in a utility district in the middle of nowhere, with active drill operations out your bedroom window. They're building a couple hundred units, which will probably head straight to foreclosure. You shouldn't be so naive to believe what developers say. If that's the best TOD you can post for Dallas, I'm sure as hell not missing much here in Houston

http://cityhallblog.dallasnews.com/archives/2012/04/in-addition-to-apartments-cypr.html

[Houston19514]

Trae listed some of the TODs that have gone up because of DART, but I will mention another that just started construction. This TOD will have 10,000 housing units when it is complete.

Massive 10,000 unit residential project underway at North Lake in Dallas

http://www.dallasnew...8#ssStory537729

Good one, Citykid. So, pretty much any apartment built within a mile of a possible future rail station site will constitute TOD? Currently there is neither transit nor development at that location. Better hold off a bit before counting that one.

[citykid09]

Gonna have to call bullshit on that one. I don't know how many people will want to live in a utility district in the middle of nowhere, with active drill operations out your bedroom window. They're building a couple hundred units, which will probably head straight to foreclosure. You shouldn't be so naive to believe what developers say. If that's the best TOD you can post for Dallas, I'm sure as hell not missing much here in Houston

http://cityhallblog....ments-cypr.html

Fine if you feel that way about that development, but you will have to wait to hear about the other developments until tomorrow. Its time to sleep!

[TheNiche]

Gonna have to call bullshit on that one. I don't know how many people will want to live in a utility district in the middle of nowhere, with active drill operations out your bedroom window.

Actually, most buyers of new homes pretty much anywhere in Texas are going to be paying taxes to a municipal utility district. And what's interesting is that since the drill sites, the rigs, and the mineral rights are all taxable, that might go a long way toward paying for the MUD's overhead. The other interesting aspect about that is that drilling requires a lot of water, so the extra infrastructure needs up-front might dovetail nicely with density. Any engineers on here care to comment? (Btw, I'm with Houston19514 on this one. Even if physically viable and uniquely taxed and provided for, it's a strange place for 10,000 units of anything. Market support seems questionable.)

As for environmental concerns, bah humbug. Portions of West U are built on top of a former dump, which was unlicensed. Clear Lake City is a former Exxon oilfield, and I believe that there are still a few active drillsites embedded within it. People will live wherever you tell them to. It just has to be well-located and be adequately marketed.

Edited April 17, 2012 by TheNiche

[Houston19514]

The DFW area is just far ahead as far as rail transit goes. There are two commuter rail lines also. Some of the TODs are Mockingbird, Park Place, Downtown Plano, Downtown Carrolton, etc.

So... we have Mockingbird, Park Lane (I presume that's what you meant; I'm not familiar with Park Place). From my understanding Park Lane's connection to DART is not very well done, so it's true "Transit Orientation" and its existence being a result of DART rail are suspect.

Aside from those two, DART rail has supposedly spurred two low-rise apartment projects in far-flung suburbs that we are tagging as TOD. To get an idea of just how DART rail has "spurred" these TOD's, read the long, expensive, history of downtown Carrollton's TOD. It makes DART's claim of spurring massive TOD pretty laughable.

Edited April 17, 2012 by Houston19514

[Houston19514]

You mention all of that, but I still don't think its much. We are all entitled to our own opinions.

Hilarious.

I'm surprised we haven't been hearing about Atlanta's TODs as well. What's up with that, Citykid?

This may be a little off topic but think about this: How is it Houston is the most booming city in North America at this time, but prety much the only development that comes from this is a bunch of 4-5 story apartment buildings? Then you look at the many skyscrapers being constructed in Chicago, Miami, Toronto, New York, etc and wonder why not Houston? Its the city that is booming not those other cities (as much). I guess Houston had its one and only chance in the 1970s.

It's not only off-topic. It is false. We are entitled to our own opinions, CityKid, but we are not entitled to our own facts.

Edited April 17, 2012 by Houston19514

[woolie]

Actually, most buyers of new homes pretty much anywhere in Texas are going to be paying taxes to a municipal utility district. And what's interesting is that since the drill sites, the rigs, and the mineral rights are all taxable, that might go a long way toward paying for the MUD's overhead. The other interesting aspect about that is that drilling requires a lot of water, so the extra infrastructure needs up-front might dovetail nicely with density. Any engineers on here care to comment? (Btw, I'm with Houston19514 on this one. Even if physically viable and uniquely taxed and provided for, it's a strange place for 10,000 units of anything. Market support seems questionable.)

I was making a reply on my phone -- harder to proofread myself. Meant to say something like "industrial district" or "oil field." Not "utility district" which is a specific legal entity.

And there are plenty of valid environmental concerns, enough that I'd look somewhere else before settling down in an active drilling operation. Especially in an exurban development; this whole thing just sounds fishy to me and is making my corruption sense tingle.

[TheNiche]

I was making a reply on my phone -- harder to proofread myself. Meant to say something like "industrial district" or "oil field." Not "utility district" which is a specific legal entity.

And there are plenty of valid environmental concerns, enough that I'd look somewhere else before settling down in an active drilling operation. Especially in an exurban development; this whole thing just sounds fishy to me and is making my corruption sense tingle.

Oh, I see. All the same, have you ever seen a gas well? They're not large, loud, or obtrusive. It'd be pretty easy to conceal them.

[Pleak]

cause it would not be profitable

Which transit systems are profitable?

[Pleak]

You mention all of that, but I still don't think its much. We are all entitled to our own opinions. This may be a little off topic but think about this: How is it Houston is the most booming city in North America at this time, but prety much the only development that comes from this is a bunch of 4-5 story apartment buildings? Then you look at the many skyscrapers being constructed in Chicago, Miami, Toronto, New York, etc and wonder why not Houston? Its the city that is booming not those other cities (as much). I guess Houston had its one and only chance in the 1970s.

Houston is replacing single story homes and two-story apartments with 5-6 story apartments. (My personal wish is they would just go for 10-story blocks - but oh well) This is the density increase that everybody whines that Houston needs to be come a "world-class" city. We had the massive tower surge (probably a bit too many for the size of the city) in the 1970's - 80's. Then came the oil crash. And life sucked in general in Houston for about 10 years - and then we had to grow enough to absorb all the extra downtown space, etc.

Now Houston is in a way "catching it's breath" and going back and back-filling in a lot of the low-density developments. This will make the big downtown and Galleria areas more sustainable in the long run - as they are reasonably accessible from most of these new developments. It's going to take several years to play out - but this infill is needed and once it's done, the next boom cycle hopefully will see more of those big towers that everybody here (including me) loves.

[woolie]

Which transit systems are profitable?

None, at least not in the US. But you could relax the term "profitable" to mean "maximum ridership return on investment."

Houston is replacing single story homes and two-story apartments with 5-6 story apartments. (My personal wish is they would just go for 10-story blocks - but oh well)

We'll get 10 story blocks soon enough. 4 stories became 6, and 6 will become 8 or 10. Density drives taller buildings.

[citykid09]

It's not only off-topic. It is false. We are entitled to our own opinions, CityKid, but we are not entitled to our own facts.

What exactly is false about my statement?

[Pleak]

We'll get 10 story blocks soon enough. 4 stories became 6, and 6 will become 8 or 10. Density drives taller buildings.

Oh - I agree - it's the next step in the progression once there is a critical mass of 4-6 stories, 8-10 stories will become the rage. Just like in the 90's it was all three stories. Just was wishing we could skip the intervening step.

[Houston19514]

technical error.

NM

Edited April 17, 2012 by Houston19514

[Houston19514]

What exactly is false about my statement?

That the only development that is occurring is a bunch of 4-5 story apartment buildings. Flat-out false.

It's pretty amusing that in one post you put down Houston by [falsely] claiming that it is only building 4-5 story apartment buildings, and in other posts proclaim the fabulousness of Dallas because of its 4-5 story apartment buildings that have been built near rail stops in its suburbs.

Edited April 17, 2012 by Houston19514

[Houston19514]

Fine if you feel that way about that development, but you will have to wait to hear about the other developments until tomorrow. Its time to sleep!

Now that you are awake again . . . I am sure I am not the only one eagerly awaiting the other TODs in Dallas you promised to reveal.

[citykid09]

technical error.

NM

I never said "ONLY" I said "PRETTY MUCH." I will acknowledge the 3 towers going up in the Galleria area and the few others that are planned, but thats about it. Toronto has highrises going up in the hundreds currently. here is an article: http://www.moneyvill...n-the-continent

Now that you are awake again . . . I am sure I am not the only one eagerly awaiting the other TODs in Dallas you promised to reveal.

I will let you win that one, only because I am to lazy to look. But I asure you that there are more and more to come.

Edited April 17, 2012 by citykid09

[Highway6]

I never said "ONLY" I said "PRETTY MUCH." I will acknowledge the 3 towers going up in the Galleria area and the few others that are planned, but thats about it. Toronto has highrises going up in the hundreds currently. here is an article: http://www.moneyvill...n-the-continent

Your article is 6 months old. Just sayin. Also.. Miami had a condo boom once.... Just sayin.

[Houston19514]

another technical error. sorry

Edited April 17, 2012 by Houston19514

[Houston19514]

I will let you win that one, only because I am to lazy to look. But I asure you that there are more and more to come.

Hmmm... You mean to say you told us that there were more TODs and promised to tell us about them, BEFORE doing the research into the matter?

Not to worry, CityKid, we trust you...

[Houston19514]

I never said "ONLY" I said "PRETTY MUCH." I will acknowledge the 3 towers going up in the Galleria area and the few others that are planned, but thats about it. Toronto has highrises going up in the hundreds currently. here is an article: http://www.moneyvill...n-the-continent

Yeah, i know you included some weasel words. It's still not true. Have you heard of the enormous new campus Exxon-Mobil is building? Phillips 66 will be starting on a new campus soon as well. Neither of these are 4-5 story apartment complexes.

Nor are any of the following 4-5 story apartment buildings:

As you now have mentioned, the three high-rises currently under construction in the Galleria area.

a high-rise office tower just announced last week in the Energy Corridor.

31-story Anadarko II.

additional office construction on the Waterway in the Woodlands.

additional office construction in the Energy Corridor.

new office space being constructed at City Centre.

Texas Children's Hospital Maternity Center recently completed.

Dynamo Stadium is nearing completion.

more office construction in Westchase.

the Personalized Cancer Care Center under construction the Texas Medical Center.

and I haven't even touched on the many apartment complexes that are taller than 4-5 stories...

Just for the record, according to the linked article, Toronto had 132 high-rises under construction. Very impressive indeed. To be clear, they are counting according to Emporis' definition of High-rise, which starts at approximately 12 stories. I wonder how many high-rises are under construction in Atlanta? Or DFW for that matter?

Edited April 17, 2012 by Houston19514