Gasoline Alternatives

[DJ V Lawrence]

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/metrop...an/3739792.html

I didn't know this was possible. Thought it was worth mentioning since oil prices have been rising.

[MidtownCoog]

My brother in law bought a converted Dodge truck in Cali just last week. He drove it back the other day.

I wonder where he will be able to fill it up here in Houston. He sent me these links

http://www.greasecar.com/

http://cbs2.com/topstories/local_story_059212504.html

[TJones]

E-85 WILL be much more widely available within the next 2 years. All car manf. will have their FFV(flex fuel vehicles) ready to go. Not to worry, you probably have a FFV already and don't know it. It's the type of gas lines you have in place on your car already, alot of Ford products have them already since 2002. Nissans have them also. I think there is only 3 or 4 places to get E-85 in Houston. It is huge up in the CornBelt right now. It is trickling down this way.

[Spencer Street]

there is always someone complaining.

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=5184874

Edited March 23, 2006 by Spencer Street

[RedScare]

I've heard this argument from several sources. One must ask the question, are we lessening our oil dependence, if it takes more energy to produce this stuff than it is worth? It is very similar to the Whole Foods claim about organic foods not using petroleum based fertilizers and pesticides, yet they import the food from South America, instead of locally, running up a large fuel bill for transportation.

However, if the energy to produce the ethanol is nuclear, or renewable, wouldn't it still lessen oil use? And oil production is very energy intensive as well, just not as intensive as corn. Realistically, the most viable solution is a combination of more efficient vehicles and gasoline substitutes. The government is supposed to come out with new gas mileage standards in a few weeks. We'll see how serious Mr. Bush is about curing our addiction.

One last thing: Recycling frier oil sounds like an energy efficient solution...too bad it is a very finite resource.

[MidtownCoog]

new mileage standards:

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/business/3741946.html

[northbeaumont]

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/metrop...an/3739792.html

I didn't know this was possible. Thought it was worth mentioning since oil prices have been rising.

The heat generated from the running engine will naturally make the vegetable oil hot. I guess you could go ahead and toss some onion rings and fries into your gas tank.

[desirous]

Being in Chicago right now, E85 is everywhere out here.

Maybe I'm just old-fashioned, but I don't see the point of ethanol when gasoline does just fine. Ethanol takes tons of energy to produce (seed distribution, sowing, harvest, shipment, and conversion -- not to mention the ludicrous level of water usage) and is raising food prices enough to worry third-world countries. I'll stick to good old gas until mass-market electric comes out.

Edited November 20, 2007 by desirous

[mojeaux131]

Being in Chicago right now, E85 is everywhere out here.

Maybe I'm just old-fashioned, but I don't see the point of ethanol when gasoline does just fine. Ethanol takes tons of energy to produce (seed distribution, sowing, harvest, shipment, and conversion -- not to mention the ludicrous level of water usage) and is raising food prices enough to worry third-world countries. I'll stick to good old gas until mass-market electric comes out.

Word. Ethanol is not a true solution. Even without the questions regarding its production, the focus on ethanol as an alternative will only exacerbate the broken system of federal corn subsidies.

[gwilson]

The major problems with ethanol and other such "alternatives" is the fact that they cannot be produced in enough volume to make a dent, and it is far more expensive to produce. The only way farmers are growing for ethanol is because of massive government subsidies.

We delicate flower, moan and groan about gas prices but don't want to do the easiest thing to bring them down. Buy less gas (aka, quit driving so much).

We need to quit dumping money in to what are, at best, stop gap measures (and that is even questionable) and start thinking radically.

here is a theory I have though. Hydrogen fuel cell technology already exists in perfect running, reliable forms. It won't be released to the masses until A. the oil is gone and B. energy companies figure out a way to make money in perpetuity off of it to the same level, if not more that they are on oil. If we can fill our tanks at home with a water hose, then major corporations will go out of business.

To the lay man who thinks "good, serves those profiteering jerks right", it makes sense. But you have to keep in mind, these companies employ HUNDREDS of THOUSANDS (if not a few million when you consider support industries). If they all end up out on the street, what then?

[memebag]

The major problems with ethanol and other such "alternatives" is the fact that they cannot be produced in enough volume to make a dent, and it is far more expensive to produce. The only way farmers are growing for ethanol is because of massive government subsidies.

Ethanol has made a pretty big dent in Brazil. Over 30% of their auto fuel comes from sugar cane ethanol.

We delicate flower, moan and groan about gas prices but don't want to do the easiest thing to bring them down. Buy less gas (aka, quit driving so much).

Commie!

here is a theory I have though. Hydrogen fuel cell technology already exists in perfect running, reliable forms. It won't be released to the masses until A. the oil is gone and B. energy companies figure out a way to make money in perpetuity off of it to the same level, if not more that they are on oil. If we can fill our tanks at home with a water hose, then major corporations will go out of business.

You can't power a hydrogen fuel cell with water. You need hydrogen. Where are you going to get the energy required to pull the hydrogen away from the oxygen? Solar? Wind? Coal?

[desirous]

Ethanol has made a pretty big dent in Brazil. Over 30% of their auto fuel comes from sugar cane ethanol.

Half the Amazon rainforest has been destroyed. The rest won't last much longer at this rate.

Commie!

Would he be a commie for entreating us to eat less and lose weight? Less consumption isn't always bad -- we're not talking about not having a refrigerator or hot water. And I'm pretty darned conservative too; sure we have the right to burn gas, but that doesn't make burning more of it better.

You can't power a hydrogen fuel cell with water. You need hydrogen. Where are you going to get the energy required to pull the hydrogen away from the oxygen? Solar? Wind? Coal?

Industrial hydrogen doesn't even come from water, it comes from natural gas, a fossil fuel. Electric is still the best bet.

[memebag]

Half the Amazon rainforest has been destroyed. The rest won't last much longer at this rate.

You can't blame all of that on ethanol, though.

Would he be a commie for entreating us to eat less and lose weight? Less consumption isn't always bad -- we're not talking about not having a refrigerator or hot water. And I'm pretty darned conservative too; sure we have the right to burn gas, but that doesn't make burning more of it better.

That was a joke.

[desirous]

You can't blame all of that on ethanol, though.

Agriculture in general. Ethanol isn't helping.

That was a joke.

Couldn't tell, no offense.

[lockmat]

More bad news for ethanol.

http://www.economist.com/world/na/displays...ory_id=10766882

OFFICIALS in Tampa, Florida, got a surprise recently when a local firm building the state's first ethanol-production factory put in a request for 400,000 gallons (1.5m litres) a day of city water. The request by US Envirofuels would make the facility one of the city's top ten water consumers overnight, and the company plans to double its size.

They are not alone. A backlash against the federally financed biofuels boom is growing around the country, and

Edited March 4, 2008 by lockmat

[TJones]

I think the Discovery Channel should do a whole show about HOW they are trying to find alternative fuel sources like Ethanol. The oil companies are actually trying to find MANY ways of doing this, such as using corn AND discarded CHICKEN PARTS together to make ethanol. I got this tidbit of info straight from one of the engineers who helped develop this idea, at first I found it hilarious, then I thought, THOSE POOR CHICKENS !!! Apparently a couple of Oil Companies have deals with Tyson and Sanderson Farms. Reminded me a little of the movie Soylent Green

Even though the resource is "renewable" it really doesn't produce any less CO2.

Edited March 4, 2008 by TJones

[memebag]

Even though the resource is "renewable" it really doesn't produce any less CO2.

It does if the CO2 released during combustion was taken out of the atmosphere to grow the corn and chicken feed.

[TJones]

It does if the CO2 released during combustion was taken out of the atmosphere to grow the corn and chicken feed.

I see what you are saying, but from what I have been told, it costs more and produces the same or more amount of CO2 to refine the product for consumption.

From what you are saying though, I now don't feel so bad about cooking that chicken out on the grill.

Edited March 4, 2008 by TJones

[houstonmacbro]

I've always been hesitant to put 'alternative' fuels in my Honda Civic. I know that sounds lame, but it is my ONLY car. I've never felt alternative fuels were completely safe to use (but that is probably just a by product of the marketing job I've been snowed with).

[memebag]

I see what you are saying, but from what I have been told, it costs more and produces the same or more amount of CO2 to refine the product for consumption.

You have to look at where the CO2 comes from, not just where it goes. Was the CO2 pulled out of the air over the last year or two, or was it stored underground for millions of years? The problem with CO2 isn't just that we're spewing it out, it's that we're spewing out a whole bunch of it that has been sequestered. I read an estimate that said it took plants over 400 years to sequester the CO2 released in just one year. That's what we have to fix. It's all solar energy when you get right down to it. We just need to figure out how to be 400 times more efficient than plants.

I've always been hesitant to put 'alternative' fuels in my Honda Civic. I know that sounds lame, but it is my ONLY car. I've never felt alternative fuels were completely safe to use (but that is probably just a by product of the marketing job I've been snowed with).

Yeah, stick with whale oil.

Edited March 5, 2008 by memebag

[BryanS]

I've always been hesitant to put 'alternative' fuels in my Honda Civic. I know that sounds lame, but it is my ONLY car. I've never felt alternative fuels were completely safe to use (but that is probably just a by product of the marketing job I've been snowed with).

Check your owner's manual - it will tell you exactly what you can and CANNOT put in your gas tank. Regular unleaded and 10% ethanol gasoline should be OK. E85 - probably not - you will ruin your car (or should I say, I know it will ruin mine!). If the manual says it is OK to put a particular fuel in your car, you should be fine.

[houstonmacbro]

I will check. I think 10% is fine, but more and more I am finding E85.

[brerrabbit]

I am pretty sure that all regular unleaded has up to 10% ethanol in it these days. That is the oxigenator that helps the fuel burn cleaner. Congress mandated its use when the old oxigenator we were using was discontinued. That was MTBE but since it was odorless, colorless and a known carcinogen Congress decided to discontinue its use.

A couple of other observations. South America uses ethanol because their situation makes it more economical and viable. First they use sugar cane to produce it and it's better for the pupose. There is more sugar and it is in a simpler form so the extraction is better. Secondly they harvest a lot of it by hand because they don't have those pesky old worker protection laws. Third they don't mind a little polution so they take all the sugar cane pulp and chaffe and burn it to create much of the heat they need to fuel the ethanol making process. That means they get about 6-8 gallons of ethanol for every gallon of fossil fuel they use. Economically it makes sense and has less to do with the environment than it does with plain old economics. Their auto industry also had a major engineering overhaul a number of years ago to prepare for the advent of ethanol fueled vehicles so in that regard also they are way ahead of us Norte Americanos.

In the US we currently make ethanol from corn which is a very inefficient way to do it. We want to use it because it is environmentally friendly and are willing to accept the fact that we only get around 1.2 gallons of ethanol for every gallon of fossil fuel we burn. Not nearly comparable to South America. As a result of the increased demand for corn midwest farmers are planting more and more of it. As a result they are using more and more nitrogen based fertilizers because corn unlike other plants cannot absorb it as fast. As a result the are doubling and tripling the amounts used and the result is runnoff into the rivers leading to the Mississippi and eventually the Gulf of Mexico. This has more than tripled the size of the annual red tide south of Louisiana. Red tide sucks the oxegen out of the water and kills everything. We are causing untolled damages to the Gulf fisheries as a result.

Ask any energy company today and they will tell you they have no interest in ethanol produced from corn other than to buy it to put in their fossil fuel mix because the congress mandated that they had to. They are all looking at second and third generation ethanol production that will not come from corn but other biomass. They are more interested in the corn stalks and other agricultural chaffe than they are the corn. Another very viable possibility is good for two reasons. They are looking at ethanol from algae. There are experimental sites that take the Co2 emmisions from power plants and pump it into plastic bags containing algae. The algae doubles in size daily and effectively cuts the Co2 emmisions drastically because thats what plants breath. The algae is then used to make ethanol. The only thing limiting the process is a cheap enzyme to act as the catalyst for the conversion. If anyone could ever figure it out we may have more economically viable ethanol than we know what to do with. Its still way out in the future but it will take out of the box thinking to come up with the solution but as it stands today corn is not the answer.