How An Autonomous Train-Bus Hybrid Could Transform Houston

[citykid09]

We all want Houston to have a world class heavy rail transit system and hopefully one day that will happen, but in the meantime I think these Train-Bus Hybrids would be great all over the city even to replace the uptown BRT. I have said this before about these Chinese bus trains, no it seems the US is paying attention to them.

https://www.cnbc.com/2023/02/19/how-an-autonomous-train-bus-hybrid-could-transform-city-transit.html

[cspwal]

The problem in Houston is not the technology used for the mass transit, it is getting high quality dedicated right of way where it’s needed

[004n063]

The internets call that a gadgetbahn. I'm with cspwal - what we need is more fully dedicated right-of-way and more lines (regardless of vehicle type) with a) peak frequencies of 5min or less, and b) off-peak frequencies of 15min or less.

 

That and to stop bending over backwards to accommodate throughput and storage of large private vehicles.

[Houston19514]

How is this functionally different from BRT?  I don't see anything that distinguishes it (other than the outer appearance looks a little more like a light rail car).

[cspwal]

It has painted tracks for the autopilot to follow, similar to how new cars do automatic lane keeping. Cost wise, you’re removing the driver of the vehicle, and depending on the quality of the automation you reduce the platform gap and can even allow for platform gates. 
 

the paint I feel would wear quick in Houston though, and I doubt it can run in the semi mixed traffic that the BRT and light rails deal with in Houston 

[samagon]

paint create another maintenance area that would end up costing a lot, but reflective markers would work, and probably require less maintenance?

I don't see a planet where (at least not in the short term) any vehicle is allowed to be automated without someone to override.

although, some hybrid type situation, where an operator pushes buttons to make the bus move to the next station, and a brake override for mixed ROW situations, but otherwise it would be fully automated, which could allow for precise stopping locations, which means parking closer to the platform to reduce gaps, and gates, that's a world I could see happening with current levels of automation. 

perhaps even the operator becomes a centrally controlled thing with 5 guys sitting in an operation room and they're doing those controls remotely, making the vehicles a mix of autonomous and drone...

remote operation doesn't necessarily make it cheaper to operate, but it would remove the need for having a driver compartment, ultimately increasing the capacity.

Edited August 23, 2023 by samagon

[Texasota]

Automated transit systems are decades old; they are really a much better candidate for automation than private vehicles, but that's assuming dedicated transit lanes.

The existing and planned BRT *would* be good candidates for automation. It could allow for better frequency without adding as much cost (or dealing with staffing shortages).

[BEES?!]

I’m not sure how I’d feel being without a driver on a bus, but that might just be me. For me it’s a safety thing. I’m sure in some ways it’d be cheaper, but idk if I’d like that tradeoff, personally. I’m an outlier who usually likes buses more than trains for that reason. (Even if trains are physically more comfortable)

[Texasota]

Again, I don't think it makes sense yet on normal bus. You need dedicated ROW.

The Copenhagen metro is fully automated; no human drivers on board - just some people in a central control room. And it's great. Runs every two minutes. 

[Houston19514]

15 hours ago, cspwal said:

It has painted tracks for the autopilot to follow, similar to how new cars do automatic lane keeping. Cost wise, you’re removing the driver of the vehicle, and depending on the quality of the automation you reduce the platform gap and can even allow for platform gates. 
 

the paint I feel would wear quick in Houston though, and I doubt it can run in the semi mixed traffic that the BRT and light rails deal with in Houston 

Except, at least so far, they appear to still have drivers on board, even in China.  And whether it has a driver on board or not, does not affect the functionality from the passenger point of view.  I still don't see any functional difference between this and BRT.

[cspwal]

They still have drivers on board? What is even the point then?

[Tumbleweed_Tx]

the trains that take you between terminals at DFW are fully automated. Keeping them totally isolated from other traffic (cars, planes, pedestrians) is what makes that system work.

[cspwal]

And it's possible on a larger scale - the DC metro was automated originally, and I think the Paris might be now. I know any with doors are automated - In Houston that means stations a/c

[samagon]

the trains at IAH are all automated as well, and as you mention for DFW, they are completely tracked and isolated.

they are also in Orlando, and a few other airports, google says they are called automated guideway transit.

important point though, they are automated, but they are also on tracks.

it's the difference of the Test Track at EPCOT vs (the now defunct) Ellen's Energy Adventure. although, I think there are other rides there that have autonomous ride vehicles that aren't on tracks at Disney (Rise of the Resistance), they just use sensors to tell them where to go, and in every instance, they all seem to have their own ROW that doesn't mingle with anything else (except potentially other ride vehicles, and I'd presume they have collision avoidance). Disney does some really awesome stuff with automation (anything automation, not just vehicles), and the industry at large is probably decades farther than they otherwise would have been without Disney.

anyway, it's a fascinating subject (primarily because automation is really cool), I suspect we are years away from mixing completely autonomous automated vehicles in the same ROW as typical traffic that includes random humans doing random human things.

Edited August 24, 2023 by samagon

[Brooklyn173]

I don't know if this is still running or was a casualty of COVID, but autonomous transit - on a tiny scale - is right around the corner.

https://www.masstransitmag.com/alt-mobility/autonomous-vehicles/press-release/21085559/first-transit-first-transit-tsu-and-metro-houston-partner-for-av-pilot-program

[Houston19514]

The listing of subways and other such transit systems that may or may not operate without drivers tells us pretty much nothing about the potential for fully autonomous vehicles operating on streets.

Edited August 25, 2023 by Houston19514

[Houston19514]

21 hours ago, cspwal said:

And it's possible on a larger scale - the DC metro was automated originally, and I think the Paris might be now. I know any with doors are automated - In Houston that means stations a/c

Yes, it was automated, but there was still a driver/operator on board.

[TacoDog]

Having the shape/look of a train would be better for BRT than having normal looking buses; whether it is autonomous or has a driver isn't as important to me.

[004n063]

On 8/28/2023 at 3:33 PM, TacoDog said:

Having the shape/look of a train would be better for BRT than having normal looking buses; whether it is autonomous or has a driver isn't as important to me.

That seems backwards to me. Automation makes service and reliability improvements much easier to accomplish. Having the shape/look of a train does...nothing?

[cspwal]

It's marketing- the cooler the vehicle looks, the more likely the people who have cars will consider using it

[TacoDog]

3 hours ago, 004n063 said:

That seems backwards to me. Automation makes service and reliability improvements much easier to accomplish. Having the shape/look of a train does...nothing?

I don't see how automation does that; I see that it looks like a train/tram/light rail and that's cool. If I had to choose between a bus or train, I choose train every time. 

[004n063]

8 minutes ago, TacoDog said:

I don't see how automation does that; I see that it looks like a train/tram/light rail and that's cool. If I had to choose between a bus or train, I choose train every time. 

I mean I agree. And the only kind of transit vehicle that has proven reliably automatable is a train. But while I also agree that trains are just inherently cooler than buses, I don't think that's nearly as much of a factor as frequency, reliability, and relative advantage over other modes. Simply looking like a tram doesn't do much in any of those departments, especially compared to the METRORapid buses that are already bike-on-board. 

Automation makes it so that you can do things like increase frequency without having to hire more people. Also reduces human error, which lowers maintenence costs.

[TacoDog]

21 minutes ago, 004n063 said:

I mean I agree. And the only kind of transit vehicle that has proven reliably automatable is a train. But while I also agree that trains are just inherently cooler than buses, I don't think that's nearly as much of a factor as frequency, reliability, and relative advantage over other modes. Simply looking like a tram doesn't do much in any of those departments, especially compared to the METRORapid buses that are already bike-on-board. 

Automation makes it so that you can do things like increase frequency without having to hire more people. Also reduces human error, which lowers maintenence costs.

You're looking at it from an engineering perspective, I'm looking at it from a personal behavior perspective. I'm assuming frequency would be the same, I'm more likely to take the train over bus. I did not know I could take my bike on board a METROrapid bus.... which kind of proves my point that a train would be better suited.

 

The same for automation. If the vehicle is on a 5 minute schedule, it doesn't matter to me how they are able to be that frequent and reliable. As a rider I am going to use it regardless if it's automated or not. 

[004n063]

7 hours ago, TacoDog said:

You're looking at it from an engineering perspective, I'm looking at it from a personal behavior perspective. I'm assuming frequency would be the same, I'm more likely to take the train over bus. I did not know I could take my bike on board a METROrapid bus.... which kind of proves my point that a train would be better suited.

 

The same for automation. If the vehicle is on a 5 minute schedule, it doesn't matter to me how they are able to be that frequent and reliable. As a rider I am going to use it regardless if it's automated or not. 

The points I'm making are that -

1) you're more likely to get those 2-4min frequencies (like in Vancouver's automated skytrain) with an automated system because you don't have to worry about staffing logistics or costs (not to anywhere near the same degree, anyway); and

2) changing the exterior experience of the vehicle will have very little impact on the rider's experience. An actual train that runs on smooth rails with overhead electirification is obviously much more comfortable. But this doesn't do that.

I spend over an hour a day on the #25 bus route, and trust me - there's one problem with the comfort of buses that stands out waaaaay above any others: the roads.

Edited September 8, 2023 by 004n063