Area Just Behind Old Chinatown

[worldlyman]

When I used to work downtown circa 1994-2001, sometimes I would have my lunch at my favorite retreat: Old Chinatown, more specifically the Kim Hung Mall. One nice thing about going there was that it was a break from the hustle and bustle of the Tunnels or Park Shops which would almost be the norm for me.

Sometimes, I would get in my car after lunch and drive on some of those streets parallel to Polk just behind Old Chinatown. There are all sorts of interesting warehouses and structures that are close to the sidewalks. I kind of wonder what if those could have taken on some type of commercial/residential development...some type of rehabilitation. It could have been something along appearance of Deep Ellum; maybe a Chinatown with a Deep Ellum form. I really like the look of the area.

It's a shame that area never became a true Chinatown. I even knew of a band called Puzzle Zoo that would rehearse in those old warehouses along with tons of other groups.

[Subdude]

Too late for it to become a "Chinatown" again, but there has been some new development taking place in the area, such as Herrin Lofts and a couple other loft projects. Still, it has a long way to go before it might be considered a hot area.

[GREASER]

There are several large, live music venues opening in the area. They are actually nice, not just a large warehouse.

[TheNiche]

The restaurants have been pretty badly hurt as a result of the George R. Brown expansion and Minute Maid Park, which resulted in the closure of 5 or 6 streets. The Arena also created connectivity issues. Although there are alternate routes, customer numbers dropped off severely and several restaurants have closed down. Even Kim Son isn't doing as well as it used to.

The area's got a few things going for it, though. First, it makes up one (or the largest) of Houston's concentrations of multistory warehouses fit for residential conversion. The Chinese and Vietnamese tenants, especially the gritty mall, give it an aire of eclecticism. And the old warehouse, especially those run by HBS, aren't really suitable for most industrial businesses anymore, but they've done an excellent job at attracting artists and bohemian-types. Dowling has also become sort of a major arterial during rush hours for those folks that work in the northern part of downtown; its unknown territory, but a developer with balls and a brain might make good money putting in retail along Dowling. That said, land prices and residential demand probably aren't sufficient at this point to merit anything more than a 20,000sf strip center, at most. Don't look for mixed-use residential-over-retail to happen here, at least not in the near future.

My forecast: townhomes and lots of them for the next five years; possibly a strip center or two. Beyond that is anybody's guess. But even if it doesn't mirror Deep Ellum, why would we want to. Lets do what we do and be unique as a result. Future generations will say "ho hum" about Dallas, "its just another planned district". Let Houston do what Houston does; that's what will make us special in 100 years.

[bwj]

yeah, last I heard Deep Ellum went downhill quick.

I dig this hood, see concerts and board the dogs there. seems promising with so many vacant lots.

[worldlyman]

yeah, last I heard Deep Ellum went downhill quick.

I dig this hood, see concerts and board the dogs there. seems promising with so many vacant lots.

Deep Ellum going downhill? Now that is interesting.

I'd like to read observations about that.

[bwj]

Most of what I've heard is from a pal of mine in Dallas who owns a record label. Apparently, most of his thoughts are around the closure of music venues and perceived increases in crime.

I spent quite a bit of time down there in 2000 - I actually lived in the Magnolia Hotel (old Mobile building on Commerce) for 6 months and would walk to Deep Ellum a couple of times a week. I hope it isn't going downhill because I had a lot of fun down there, just what I've heard.

Here is a link that seems to summarize the subject.

Edited February 17, 2006 by bwj

[Houston19514]

The restaurants have been pretty badly hurt as a result of the George R. Brown expansion and Minute Maid Park, which resulted in the closure of 5 or 6 streets. The Arena also created connectivity issues. Although there are alternate routes, customer numbers dropped off severely and several restaurants have closed down. Even Kim Son isn't doing as well as it used to.

I'm finding it just a little hard to buy the idea that restaurants are closing down in old Chinatown because people have trouble getting there from downtown. A few streets have been closed over the years, but it's not like it's difficult to get over there. (Only 2 streets were closed for the expansion of the GRB; I'm not sure how many through streets might have been closed for MinuteMaid (2 at the most), but since all of Chinatown is well south of MinuteMaid, I can't see any impact from MinuteMaid.) Kim Son may be cannibalizing itself with multiple Little Kim Sons sprinkled throughout downtown, the Medical Center and Allen Parkway, and with another Kim Son downtown (which I guess is closed now).

[MidtownCoog]

I'd like to read observations about that.

Google the DMN. This is fact. No Dallas bashing.

Crime is way up, and the tennants are leaving.

[RedScare]

I'm finding it just a little hard to buy the idea that restaurants are closing down in old Chinatown because people have trouble getting there from downtown. A few streets have been closed over the years, but it's not like it's difficult to get over there. (Only 2 streets were closed for the expansion of the GRB; I'm not sure how many through streets might have been closed for MinuteMaid (2 at the most), but since all of Chinatown is well south of MinuteMaid, I can't see any impact from MinuteMaid.) Kim Son may be cannibalizing itself with multiple Little Kim Sons sprinkled throughout downtown, the Medical Center and Allen Parkway, and with another Kim Son downtown (which I guess is closed now).

I agree. GRB, MMP and Toyota have had no negative effects on this area. If anything, they helped. Many of the restaurants that have left, did so because their food, service and especially cleanliness sagged badly. I know that it is convenient to blame outside factors, but I frequented these places and they did themselves in. Reminds me of Main Street during rail construction. Some poorly run businesses went under and all blame went to METRO. The construction hurt, but some of these places sucked before the dirt flew.

[worldlyman]

Thanks for the link, bwj.

I remember going to Deep Ellum whenever I visited my brother who lives up in Big D and is a fan of everything Dallas except the Cowboys and Deep Ellum. I'd actually go out to Deep Ellum with HIS friends in the '90s.

Some of my Houston buds and I liked going to that 5 clubs in one bunker that included the Blind Lemon. Great times.

One time, we tried to comfort some chick in the booth behind us who started barfing...and her friend said, "Be cool guys, let her breathe" (or something like that).

Last time I went to Deep Ellum was in mid-2000 with my wife (when she was still my girlfriend) and her cousin's friends. It seemed like the same ol'.

So literally, for those who have seen it like, yesterday, Deep Ellum is now a wasteland, with once lively storefronts and bars shuttered up? Only some clubs and bars here and there?

That is quite a development to recently acknowledge on my part. Wow.

I'm finding it just a little hard to buy the idea that restaurants are closing down in old Chinatown because people have trouble getting there from downtown. A few streets have been closed over the years, but it's not like it's difficult to get over there. (Only 2 streets were closed for the expansion of the GRB; I'm not sure how many through streets might have been closed for MinuteMaid (2 at the most), but since all of Chinatown is well south of MinuteMaid, I can't see any impact from MinuteMaid.) Kim Son may be cannibalizing itself with multiple Little Kim Sons sprinkled throughout downtown, the Medical Center and Allen Parkway, and with another Kim Son downtown (which I guess is closed now).

I have not liked Kim Son for some time. In the downtown area, there is some hidden Vietnamese commercial district that tends to be found by accident under the freeway that has some good genuine chow.

And if Pho Huynh is still there, across from the Van Loc restaurant there near the Midtown environs over on Milam (or is that Travis...this perpetual San Diego sun kinda distorts my memories now and then), are better choices.

[TheNiche]

I'm finding it just a little hard to buy the idea that restaurants are closing down in old Chinatown because people have trouble getting there from downtown. A few streets have been closed over the years, but it's not like it's difficult to get over there. (Only 2 streets were closed for the expansion of the GRB; I'm not sure how many through streets might have been closed for MinuteMaid (2 at the most), but since all of Chinatown is well south of MinuteMaid, I can't see any impact from MinuteMaid.)

The following seven streets have been closed at US 59 as a result of the George R. Brown, Minute Maid Park, or Toyota Arena:

Preston

Prairie

Walker

McKinney

Lamar

Dallas

Clay

Granted, someone very knowledgable of the downtown area can find ways to detour via:

St. Joseph Pkwy

Jefferson

Pease

Leeland

Bell

Polk

Rusk

Capitol

Texas

Franklin

Commerce

But when 7 of 18 streets are closed off entirely from the Chinatown grid, and many those that are cut off result in detours through parts of downtown that break the grid (Avienda de las Americas, McKinney, and Lamar), and when you consider that Chinatown is a very loose cluster of Chinese and Vietnamese businesses, surely you can see how an urban novice that works downtown, usually eats in the tunnels, and lives in Katy could get turned around and be easily discouraged. Even among more seasoned urbanites, these facilities have created massive psychological barriers.

And you shouldn't expect much beneficial pedestrian traffic from the GRB or the stadia. Not only would a lot of people have to overcome the psychological barrier that is the freeway, but the foremost entrances and exits from these facilities seem to face west, away from Chinatown. Now if you're a tourist or urban novice that is attending a concert or game but who lives in Katy, isn't it understandable that there's a fair likelihood that you're going to be frustrated in your attempt to find these places? If you don't know that they exist, you're certainly far less likely to stumble upon them.

An even more compelling reason to believe this explanation is that downtown is seeing solid positive absorption of office space, and employees are being crammed into even smaller spaces by the big corporations, so the number of prospective customers is growing quickly. On top of that, residential construction has added new households in the area, many of which are of the type that would be attracted to these kinds of ethnic restaurants. These shops should be seeing more customers given market conditions, not fewer. So the only alternative explanation if these places haven't been seriously cutting quality is that there are impediments to movement.

[Houston19514]

The following seven streets have been closed at US 59 as a result of the George R. Brown, Minute Maid Park, or Toyota Arena:

Preston

Prairie

Walker

McKinney

Lamar

Dallas

Clay

Granted, someone very knowledgable of the downtown area can find ways to detour via:

St. Joseph Pkwy

Jefferson

Pease

Leeland

Bell

Polk

Rusk

Capitol

Texas

Franklin

Commerce

But when 7 of 18 streets are closed off entirely from the Chinatown grid, and many those that are cut off result in detours through parts of downtown that break the grid (Avienda de las Americas, McKinney, and Lamar), and when you consider that Chinatown is a very loose cluster of Chinese and Vietnamese businesses, surely you can see how an urban novice that works downtown, usually eats in the tunnels, and lives in Katy could get turned around and be easily discouraged. Even among more seasoned urbanites, these facilities have created massive psychological barriers.

What happened to Congress Ave? Oh, the horror of only having 12 streets on which to reach an area! How could a suburbanite EVER figure out how to get over there? ;-) I'm just guessing here, but if a person is so easily confused/intimidtated that they can't or won't venture over a couple of blocks to get around a blocked street, they probably aren't the type to have ever ventured into an area such as the Old Chinatown to begin with.

I agree with Red Scare, it's just too easy to blame outside factors for a business's demise. Long before the addition to GRB and the construction of MinuteMaid Park and Toyota Center, the Old Chinatown was struggling and largely unknown to downtown workers and even more so to visitors. If the businesses over there had ever bothered to get together and promote themselves (with even so much as a few signs pointing in their direction), they surely could have prospered, ASSUMING the quality was there.

Edited February 17, 2006 by Houston19514

[editor]

Is Jenny's Noodles still open in "old Chinatown?" I used to have lunch there on a farily regular basis with Johnathan Walton. (I'm not dropping names, I just thought I'd mention it since a lot of people on this forum hate him.)

[musicman]

Is Jenny's Noodles still open in "old Chinatown?"

yes it is open as of a month or so ago

[Jeebus]

Is Jenny's Noodles still open in "old Chinatown?" I used to have lunch there on a farily regular basis with Johnathan Walton. (I'm not dropping names, I just thought I'd mention it since a lot of people on this forum hate him.)

[editor]

yes it is open as of a month or so ago

She's got a great life story -- Laid off from Continental in 1999, so she opened the noodle shop. I heard they tried to get her to come back, and she decided to stick with the noodle joint. Good for her.

[DJ V Lawrence]

I agree 100% with RedScare and Houston19514 that the downtown street closures had little or no negative affect on the old Chinatown area.

To me, the problem is simple: no one as of yet has put mad investments on that area. If someone were to invest in it with a retail-type thing like Rice Village, imagine the money it could make.

I STRONGLY feel that the MLS soccer stadium should be located there. Perhaps have a good retail/residential development all around thhe stadium. It's a perfect fit. The land value could use a boost, the central location is ideal for a professional franchise, and most importantly, the area needs new buildings.

[Watch4Snakes]

I just don't feel that this area should even be referred to as "Chinatown" anymore. From what I read on another thread, it seems that, though the city calls this "Chinatown," the various Asian communities place it somewhere miles to the west-southwest.

Edited February 20, 2006 by Watch4Snakes

[Jeebus]

I just don't feel that this area should even be referred to as "Chinatown" anymore. From what I read on another thread, it seems that, though the city calls this "Chinatown," the various Asian communities place it somewhere miles to the west-southwest.

I think what's preventing everyone from not calling that area Chinatown anymore, is the fact that there is nothing else to call that area.

[infinite_jim]

The area will be interesting and a principle warehouse/club/live music venue has popped up there, namely, the Meridian.

[DJ V Lawrence]

I think what's preventing everyone from not calling that area Chinatown anymore, is the fact that there is nothing else to call that area.

Not yet, at least. That's why a stadium and a retail/residential project together could do the trick. The land prices are probably at their lowest right now, and it's right across from MMP/GRB. PERFECT opportunity for MLS. Also a perfect opportunity for land investors. I can imagine the residents that live in that area are ready for an improvement there.

[Subdude]

I just don't feel that this area should even be referred to as "Chinatown" anymore. From what I read on another thread, it seems that, though the city calls this "Chinatown," the various Asian communities place it somewhere miles to the west-southwest.

Well, "Old" or "Former" Chinatown. It's certainly not Chinatown now.

Btw, I agree that closing off so much of the street grid, and the expansion of the GRB and Toyota Center had a big negative effect on the area, even if it's not directly responsible for businesses closing. The GRB and 59 serve as a huge wall and form a kind of barrier with downtown that was exacerbated by so many street closings. One thing you can do to preserve neighborhoods is to preserve the street grid.

[Jeebus]

Well, what could it be renamed if the MLS stadium goes up there? If no MLS, would GRB & Minutemaid give it enough identity for a rename?

[DJ V Lawrence]

Well, what could it be renamed if the MLS stadium goes up there? If no MLS, would GRB & Minutemaid give it enough identity for a rename?

FunkyTown?

Edited February 20, 2006 by DJ V Lawrence

[infinite_jim]

i dont think the land values are at their lowest since the building of the stadiums, this could be a reason why growth has been very slow coming.

In reference to the street closings they do little to cut off the area compared to the effect the freeway has; and considering they are on a grid system it shouldn't be too difficult to navigate to and fro.

Edited February 21, 2006 by infinite_jim

[TheNiche]

I agree 100% with RedScare and Houston19514 that the downtown street closures had little or no negative affect on the old Chinatown area.

To me, the problem is simple: no one as of yet has put mad investments on that area. If someone were to invest in it with a retail-type thing like Rice Village, imagine the money it could make.

I STRONGLY feel that the MLS soccer stadium should be located there. Perhaps have a good retail/residential development all around thhe stadium. It's a perfect fit. The land value could use a boost, the central location is ideal for a professional franchise, and most importantly, the area needs new buildings.

The MLS Stadium could almost certainly be done near there, ideally toward the northern end, where it could share parking with Minute Maid Park. In fact, it'd be ideal if they could build where Prairie used to run and build out adjacent blocks now used for parking lots as major parking garages that'd serve both stadiums as well as the GRB & Arena for big events. I can also extensive envision shuttle service from those parking garages into downtown.

The "Rice Village" concept will take a long time in the making. Bear in mind that the original is located smack dab in the West U/Bellaire/Southside Place cluster. The East End can't even come close to comparing, and demographics are EVERYTHING in the retail biz.

[nmainguy]

I suppose it can no longer be called "Chinatown" because the Chinese have removed themselves from the equation. We used to love to go there-Spring House being our favorite-but it has declined and many merchants have moved to Bellaire. I'm OK with that, I just won't be going there. Some of the decline is economic-some is due to the fact that many Chinese don't assimilate as well as those from Viet Nam, Mexico, and Central America among others. I don't believe MMP or the GRB had an impact. If anything, those properties could only boost the attraction that was Chinatown. It was not for lack of trying or street closures.

Edited February 22, 2006 by nmainguy

[2112]

While on the subject, where would the center of gravity be in the "new" chinatown on the southwest side? If I wanted to start exploring, where should I go?

[worldlyman]

While on the subject, where would the center of gravity be in the "new" chinatown on the southwest side? If I wanted to start exploring, where should I go?

The Sin Chao and Diho shopping centers, on Bellaire Blvd. between Ranchester (or right on it) and Beltway 8. Further down, for a bit of a Sino-Viet flavor, just further west on Bellaire@Boone, go to the Hong Kong Mall...one of the best Asian malls in America according to goldsea.com.

You can pick whatever food catches your fancy. Tan Tan at night is easy to find...and they're open until 2am (3 am on Fri-Sat).